Ian Allan book and model shop fined for selling a knife

[Mark Saunders]

27 minutes ago, Titan said:

To me this seems on the verge of entrapment.  It seems the product that was bought was specifically chosen to increase the chances of a knife being accidentally sold - it was part of a toolkit rather than a knife or knife set, and although the shop should have realised the toolkit contained a knife, one has to ask that if a craft knife by itself had been chosen, would the shop have refused the sale?

 

Did they target any other shops with a similar strategy and this was the only one that they managed to buy a knife?  Or did they just try this out on Ian Allan?

 

Anything can be used as a deadly weapon in the wrong hands!

 

There was recently a man in Newcastle city centre murdered with a screwdriver!

[Steamport Southport]

They are just picking on an easy target, Mr Jobsworth still lives. A warning would have sufficed. I reckon that somebody could cause much more damage with a hammer from the local discount store, ask Peter Sutcliffe....

 

 

However. I think there is a bit of naivety on the part of IA. It should have been a flagged item on the till.

 

I run a charity shop and whilst we don't sell anything risky I am forever having to tell my volunteers not to sell age restricted items such as DVDs and computer games to youngsters. It's the older staff you have to be careful of as they think that computer games are just for kids and don't consider that many of them are for over 18s.

 

 

Jason

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

To me this seems on the verge of entrapment.  It seems the product that was bought was specifically chosen to increase the chances of a knife being accidentally sold - it was part of a toolkit rather than a knife or knife set, and although the shop should have realised the toolkit contained a knife, one has to ask that if a craft knife by itself had been chosen, would the shop have refused the sale?

 

Did they target any other shops with a similar strategy and this was the only one that they managed to buy a knife?  Or did they just try this out on Ian Allan?

 

I agree but as there is a law that states that knives and blades are not to be sold to those under the age of 18, then retailers need to ensure that they comply with the law and that means either training their staff in compliance or ensuring that their systems flag items where sale is restricted, to prompt the staff member to ask for ID.  There is little point in having such laws if the Government are not going to check that retailers are complying with them.  I understand that such 'sting' operations are conducted regularly across the country where youths are sent into corner shops and major retailers to attempt to buy cigarettes, alcohol or in this case, knives.  The chances are, that a similar strategy was conducted in a number of other shops that day and Ian Allan was the only one where the youth came out with a knife.  As such, Ian Allan are the ones breaking the law and should be punished for doing so.

 

Whilst a warning may seem appropriate to some, a significant fine is much more likely to focus the management's attention on the need to ensure that a similar sale is not made in the future.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Dungrange

[Andy Hayter]

I fully agree with the last paragraph Dungrange.  Unfortunately the most likely management response will be to stop selling the item and others like it.

[jchinuk]

On 25/01/2020 at 13:26, Phil Parker said:

Much as I love the Ian Allan shop, someone made a mistake here and they got caught. If it offends you, would you have the same indignation if the culprit had been your local open all hours corner shop?

 

Knife crime is a big hit in the media at present with hysterical headlines every day. That means that those tasked with putting a sticking plaster on the problem have to be seen to be doing something. A high-ish profile case will remind a few others that they are supposed to ask the question when selling knives, that's the point of it all. 

 

You are quite right, the "law is the law".

 

The problem is that if a news media, be that printed or broadcast, got hold of the story "Shop selling knives to children" it would be blow out of all proportion.  The local council have to be able to say they are doing something, though my local council targets those selling alcohol to under 18s.

 

I rank it as similar to "Health & Safety gone Mad" responses, remember steam railways are one serious accident away from being banned altogether regardless of where the fault lies.  I understand following the "accident" where the train spotter got his head removed by lineside furniture, despite the warnings not to stick your head out the window, preserved railways will be obliged to introduce measures to reduce the chance of that happening. 

 

Remember one pilot's actions have effectively killed off privately owned retired military aircraft flying in UK air displays.

 

jh

[jchinuk]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

To me this seems on the verge of entrapment.  It seems the product that was bought was specifically chosen to increase the chances of a knife being accidentally sold - it was part of a toolkit rather than a knife or knife set, and although the shop should have realised the toolkit contained a knife, one has to ask that if a craft knife by itself had been chosen, would the shop have refused the sale?

 

Did they target any other shops with a similar strategy and this was the only one that they managed to buy a knife?  Or did they just try this out on Ian Allan?

 

It's not really entrapment, the shops are obliged to ask "Are you over XX", I must admit at 62 I'm flattered when they do!  The till usually prompts the question and  I assume they need to click 'yes' or whatever for the sale to progress.

 

My local council (in London) regular does similar checks on alcohol sales.

 

jh

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Common sense should come into the equation, it's the bigger knives that are used in knife crime, I've yet to hear of anybody being trimmed to death with a Swann Morton scalpel!

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Anything can be used as a deadly weapon in the wrong hands!

 

There was recently a man in Newcastle city centre murdered with a screwdriver!

 

John Wick only needs a pencil!

 

Mike.

[runs as required]

Our very terrifying Postie is always ready to reassure us that her bro. (in the SAS ?) taught her how to kill by simply poking hard with her finger - or with a well aimed knee for lesser offences.

We all keep on the right side of her.

dh

[TheSignalEngineer]

Using under-age children has long been a tactic for catching out shopkeepers for alcohol, tobacco, etc. 

As the person being used is under 18 does the Council employee running the sting have to be in possession of a full disclosure certificate from the DBS?

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Common sense should come into the equation, it's the bigger knives that are used in knife crime, I've yet to hear of anybody being trimmed to death with a Swann Morton scalpel!

 

Most of the time, but you can kill someone with a surprisingly small blade if you stab in just the right place.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Most of the time, but you can kill someone with a surprisingly small blade if you stab in just the right place.

Strictly speaking you could kill someone with just the handle of a Swan Morton and no blade.

 

Where do we stop? 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Strictly speaking you could kill someone with just the handle of a Swan Morton and no blade.

 

Where do we stop? 

Nice pointy nose tweezers.

Miniature screw driver.

Pin vice with small drill.

Sharpened 2H pencil

Icicle (melts and leaves no incriminating evidence).............

 

I did actually cut the back of my hand on an icicle in the winter of 62/63 and needed some stitches.

Dangerous things, should be banned.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Levity aside, I think the one thing we can all agree on, it's not the implement that is the problem, but the person with it.

 

Mike.

[boxbrownie]

30 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Nice pointy nose tweezers.

Miniature screw driver.

Pin vice with small drill.

Sharpened 2H pencil

Icicle (melts and leaves no incriminating evidence).............

 

I did actually cut the back of my hand on an icicle in the winter of 62/63 and needed some stitches.

Dangerous things, should be banned.

No......that's just starting......

 

Oh....shhh, don’t tell but I have a stylus on my iPad here.......

[polybear]

6 hours ago, Dungrange said:

The chances are, that a similar strategy was conducted in a number of other shops that day and Ian Allan was the only one where the youth came out with a knife.  As such, Ian Allan are the ones breaking the law and should be punished for doing so.

 

 

Is not the "council employee" then in possession of an offensive weapon in a public place when they exit the shop.....?

[Dungrange]

2 minutes ago, polybear said:

Is not the "council employee" then in possession of an offensive weapon in a public place when they exit the shop.....?

 

Yes, but then that's probably a different piece of legislation and will have very specific exemptions in it.  For example, if the police were to apprehend someone for dealing drugs, which are confiscated for evidence at the dealers subsequent trial, you surely wouldn't consider it appropriate to charge the police officer for being in possession of a Class A drug.  The reality is that the police officer is in possession of a Class A drug between the apprehension and the police station, but that is only as a consequence of them doing the job that they are paid to do.  The same common sense approach needs to apply to the "council employee" in this case as well - they are paid to test whether retailers like Ian Allan are obeying the law.  Such circumstances are presumably noted in the relevant legislation.  The youth will be required to hand over the knife to their superior and it will be put in a bag and taken back to the council offices as 'evidence' of what was sold to a minor.

 

The reality is that Ian Allan obviously need to tighten up their procedures and we should all agree about that.  Yes, sometimes it might seem unfair, but that's just life.  Every time I go into Tesco or Sainsbury's and buy a bottle of alcohol free cider, when I get to the self-service scanner, it's highlighted as a restricted item (even although it's alcohol free) and I'd be asked for ID if I looked under 25.   However, I don't think I've been asked for ID in the last 20 years: the last time I was, I was 28.  What Ian Allan should have is a similar system, or if they don't scan goods, then they need to ensure that they better train their staff.

 

Perhaps try thinking of this the other way round.  How would you feel if you or someone you know was stabbed by a youth with a knife?  How would you feel if you were subsequently informed that the youth who attacked you or someone you know had bought the knife that morning from Ian Allan?  Would you not think that had Ian Allan not sold the knife, you might not have been stabbed?

[soony]

Lidl/Aldi need to watch the age restriction on things like thinners in a tin (which are often sold with grocery). I was asked last week when buying one , and I'm mid seventies...

               I see a mention  of Cocodamol earlier in the thread- I have that on repeat thru the Doc , and get two huge boxes per 2 months..... and not a word.

 

[YesTor]

6 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

I've yet to hear of anybody being trimmed to death with a Swann Morton scalpel!

 

Mike.

 

That's nothing, I have in my possession an unlicensed butter knife, does that count?   

[Edge]

I actually tend to agree with the 'verge of entrapment' comments here. Its one thing for the shop to fail to properly ID someone when the law says they should, but quite another for the police to actually provoke such a situation.

[soony]

I bought a steak bake from Greggs recently and was given a wooden knife and fork from a large box on open ' help yourself' shelf,  does that count as needing age verification, they just as dangerous in the wrong hands.

[Andy Hayter]

29 minutes ago, soony said:

               I see a mention  of Cocodamol earlier in the thread- I have that on repeat thru the Doc , and get two huge boxes per 2 months..... and not a word.

 

 

In theory your doctor has discussed the risks of codeine based medication with you.  Codeine converts to morphine in the body, so basically regular and continuous usage makes you theoretically a junkie at a very base level - since the amounts of codeine are small and well controlled.   

 

The fact that it is prescribed means that the pharmacist will likely assume that you have received such warnings.  

 

In France and Germany such medications are only available on prescription, but in the UK you can buy a small box of low dosage codeine over the counter.  

[Martino]

12 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

That’s wrong, Melatonin is even prescribed for children in some case of sleep problems.

 

 

Good to know.  Last conversation with my UK doctor friend was that he wanted some for himself (to fly with) but it hadn’t been cleared by UK health folks.  If my mother’s doctor can prescribe it for her, that would save me sending bottles of pills from over here!   Thanks again.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Martino

[The Johnster]

11 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Anything can be used as a deadly weapon in the wrong hands!

 

There was recently a man in Newcastle city centre murdered with a screwdriver!

The Yorkshire Ripper, who was told by God to cleanse the streets of via the voices in his head, used a screwdriver on several of his victims.

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Most of the time, but you can kill someone with a surprisingly small blade if you stab in just the right place.

Surgeons do it all the time, admittedly not on purpose.  My Xacto blade is probably capable of severing a jugular, and certainly capable of opening an artery in a wrist.

 

3 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

That's nothing, I have in my possession an unlicensed butter knife, does that count?   

It does if you've also got unlicensed butter...