KISS KISS Please

[Phaeton]

I've tried to read up on the threads but all of them seem to suddenly drift off at tangents & don't seem to answer basic questions, so I'm asking you all to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid <--- reference to me not you) I'm building the layout below as a testing layout to learn DCC before I build a more complicated one. I will be adding point motors in the future but the initial idea is to get up & running, once I have bought track & loco's.

 

Here is the layout, I read that you only need to connect 2 wires, but as there are isolating points how does the electricity get to the inner track & sidings?

 

Can somebody advised if more links to provide power are needed, I read all over about 'dropouts' but nobody explains what they are.

 

Ignore the colours they have no relevance.

 

 

[ITG]

The mantra I followed when starting my DCC layout was to avoid isolating points, use insulating joiners on the inner rails of points, and put feeds into tracks for every individual piece. I guess if all else fails, the last point is the key one, which would address your query re isolating points.

[Phaeton]

7 minutes ago, ITG said:

The mantra I followed when starting my DCC layout was to avoid isolating points, use insulating joiners on the inner rails of points, and put feeds into tracks for every individual piece. I guess if all else fails, the last point is the key one, which would address your query re isolating points.

 

I think I am mixing up terms, when I said isolating points, I actually meant insulfrog points Sorry.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Phaeton

[Robert Stokes]

DCC is sometimes advertised as "two wires only" but that is misleading. Best practice is to have two thick wires running around the layout, which are called "bus wires" (I don't know why). Droppers are thinner wires connecting the track to the bus wires at several places. Some people argue that you should have droppers from every piece of track to the bus wires, while others argue that you don't.

 

Insulfrog points may make things easier but you may find that some engines stall on them.

 

Why do you need to build a test track first? Just start the one you really want and learn as you go.

 

Robert    

[Phaeton]

6 minutes ago, Robert Stokes said:

Why do you need to build a test track first? Just start the one you really want and learn as you go.    

 

Thank you Robert, probably known as "bus wires" as a derivative of "buzz bars" which were used in large buildings to move the electricity around, which used to "buzz" under certain circumstances.

 

But back to the question, it's 45 years since I "played" with trains, this might just be a fad as I can't get outside & do things on the cars & bikes. I'm also using N gauge which I have never used before, so I may not get on with it. I've also no idea what kind of layout I want, so a simple double loop with sidings will hopefully give me an idea of what I really want. I can also test out inclines, point motors, leds etc. Everything I use will be reused. It might be that I can't get on with N gauge 'too small' then I can go to OO but I cannot go over 4x2 so it will not be R&R.

[WIMorrison]

They were known as bus bars because they carried the power around, the same as a bus carried people and in computer terms they carry the data around - the name comes from omnibus and the fact they buzzed was coincidence :)

[Ron Ron Ron]

Bus refers to it being a data bus, as it’s used to transport DCC command data around the layout.

There are several different types of bus that can be used with DCC **

The one you are referring to is the Power Bus.

A Power Bus can be used as a Track Bus or an Accessory Bus, or for both functions.

 

 

p.s.  ** 

e.g. cab/throttle bus, feedback bus, control bus (links boosters), power bus.

[DCB]

Dead simple.

Its set track so dead frog. No isolators needed.

Black and Red to controller.

Connect Orange ,Green and Light Green, if you want carriage lights, Sound etc  etc to stay on in the siding with points against it.

Live frog is different.

Scale track needs a red/black feed to every bit of track. Bit of a pain. Life's too short.

Edited January 26, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[ITG]

 

11 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

cale track needs a red/black feed to every bit of track.

 Surely scale track is no different. I understood the reason why multiple dropper feeds is recommended is down to the need to avoid/minimise poor connections due to loose fishplates/ track joiners. Obviously same logic is true of DC as well as DCC but the ‘always live’ nature of the latter, plus the sound/light characteristics of such locos, means you want power even to stationary locos - which if using isolating/insulfrog points would be an issue unless adding additional feeds one way or another.

i started again (after a 50 year gap) with DCC and insulfrog points, and quickly realised slow running was much improved by using live frogs, so changed over to them.

 

[RAF96]

I would have suggested Hornby point clips (staple like bits of springy wire) fitted to the points for making such a small, simple layout all live, but as there is talk of N gauge later by the OP despite the track diagram using 00 gauge parts, that throws that out of the window. If so then also ignore any talk of Code 100 as it will be Code 55 i.e. rails are 55/1000s of an inch high.

Edited January 26, 2020 by RAF96
Clarification hopefully

[andyman7]

13 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Dead simple.

Its set track so dead frog. Code 100.  No isolators needed.

Black and Red to controller.

Connect Orange ,Green and Light Green, if you want carriage lights, Sound etc  etc to stay on in the siding with points against it.

Live frog is different.

Scale track needs a red/black feed to every bit of track. Bit of a pain. Life's too short.

I would endorse this as the straightforward simple way to get it all working. Additional feeds (whether for scale track or otherwise) and de-isolating points can all be used to improve reliability but are not essential to get it to work. I have a hybrid DC/DCC set up so all my points are isolating ones, the track has seperate feeds for each circuit for DC; when used on DCC I have simply arranged for all the feeds to be connected simultaneously to the DCC output and it all works perfectly well for my needs.

[grriff]

Unless you have locomotives with sound, self-isolating points are not necessarily a bad idea for sidings. I use them on my DCC layout and it stops locos running into incorrectly set points.

My experience with Peco OO setrack is that it only requires one feed plus point clips but it is better to feed power to each oval. Track cleanliness is much more important than many track feeds.

I have found that insulated frogs do not cause problems for locos with sprung wheels but do cause stalling for cheaper locos (e.g. Hornby Thomas) which have no springing.

[Phaeton]

2 hours ago, RAF96 said:

but as there is talk of N gauge later by the OP despite the track diagram using 00 gauge parts, that throws that out of the window.

 

The parts used a Peco N Gauge Set track, not sure where the reference to OO is being found, apologies for that, but I would have thought the principles were the same no matter what scale, but as usual I am happy to be wrong, as I frequently find I am, but I would rather ask a question then blindly go on in ignorance.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Phaeton
Spilling mustaces

[DCB]

6 hours ago, ITG said:

 

 Surely scale track is no different. I understood the reason why multiple dropper feeds is recommended is down to the need to avoid/minimise poor connections due to loose fishplates/ track joiners. Obviously same logic is true of DC as well as DCC but the ‘always live’ nature of the latter, plus the sound/light characteristics of such locos, means you want power even to stationary locos - which if using isolating/insulfrog points would be an issue unless adding additional feeds one way or another.

i started again (after a 50 year gap) with DCC and insulfrog points, and quickly realised slow running was much improved by using live frogs, so changed over to them.

 

There is an issue with terminology, Some people call ready to lay Peco and the like scale track and read the statement that you need a dropper to each piece of rail on scale track to mean you need it on Peco etc when the original reference was to very fine scale hand built track with dummy non conducting fishplates which indisputably do need a dropper to each piece of rail. 

Its sort of a sliding scale from needing one feed to the layout using set track on a kitchen table to needing a feed to every bit of rail with non conducting fishplates. The smaller the rail section and the greater the power applied the more feeds (Droppers) are needed.  A good robust fishplate on code 100 track will take 1 amp for 30 years without any discernible voltage drop or attention as long as it is not disturbed. A bad fitting one on 2 amps will glow red hot.  Been there, done that.  But that was with a typical US style DCC load of at least 3 locos on a long freight on two 1 amp DC controllers.  A lot of DCC advice comes from the good ole US of A where layouts filling a 40 feet long basement with 100 feet or more plain track and 3 to 5 locos heading very heavy trains, maybe drawing 2.5 amps continuously feature in the hobby magazines.

Very different to a typical UK 6X4 or 4X2 layout.

Edited January 26, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[jpendle]

8 hours ago, Phaeton said:

 

The parts used a Peco N Gauge Set track, not sure where the reference to OO is being found, apologies for that, but I would have thought the principles were the same no matter what scale, but as usual I am happy to be wrong, as I frequently find I am, but I would rather ask a question then blindly go on in ignorance.

As you are using Peco N Gauge set track then all you need to do is to connect the power from your controller to each loop as shown in the diagram above.

 

Once you started to test out the way DCC works you may then notice that you won't be able to turn on the lights on any loco that has them, if they are parked in the sidings. Then you'll need to consider adding extra power feeds to the sidings.

 

BTW I think a test track to start is an excellent idea. Lots of the electrical stuff done on a layout starts to make sense once you have experienced the limitations of not doing something.

 

Also, Peco N Gauge Track comes in 3 flavours, Set Track which is Code 80, Streamline which is also Code 80, and Finescale which is Code 55, Code refers to the visible height of the rail.

 

And VERY IMPORTANTLY, there are differences in the way in which certain things are done electrically as OO Gauge points are 'finer' than N Gauge ones. There are mods that are made to OO points for DCC running that are not necessary for N Gauge Finescale track for example.

 

Also as the majority of users of this forum model OO then that is assumed to be the default scale. So it's always best to be clear, right at the beginning of any post, which scale you are working in.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[jpendle]

Sorry about the multiple posts. The website is giving me gip today!

 

John P

[Ron Ron Ron]

You can hide the duplicates John, or ask for them to be removed.

[Phaeton]

Slight setback today went into Rails of Sheffield & they hadn't got any 2nd radius double curves, only standard 2nd radius, but that put the price up another £9, I know not a lot but I'll have to wait. But more importantly they didn't have a cheap DCC loco, I was after the Dapol pannier with DCC, but no stock, went for a DCC ready instead but then they had no chips that would fit so came away with just the loco & some 1st radius track. So currently stuck unless I go steal my grandson's analogue controller

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Which fitting is the decoder for loco?