Compensation/springing for Slater's 4mm Midland Wagons

[MonsalDan]

Hello,

I'm looking to buy some Slater's 4mm Midland wagons and I was wondering what the best way of adding compensation or spinging to these is?

Also, if there's anything available to improve the underframe for a more finescale appearance?

Edited January 26, 2020 by MonsalDan

[brossard]

Take a look at these: 

 

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=4136&name=4mm-w-irons&Itemid=189

 

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=4138&name=4mm-underframes&Itemid=189

 

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=4138&name=4mm-underframes&Itemid=189

 

I have done these in 4mm and 7mm and I can recommend them.

 

Also these look good but I haven't tried them:  http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/wagon_sub-frames.htm

 

John

Edited January 26, 2020 by brossard

[sharris]

I can't say if it's the best way but my method is as follows:

 

pare back the reverse of the sole-bar pieces to remove the W irons, but leave the springs in place.

 

At one end of the wagon (I.e. Opposite ends of the two sole bar pieces, separate an axlebox from the springs. I use a slight diagonal cut from the front at the top. 

 

I then file the bottom of the spring flat and on the axlebox file the diagonal cut into an L-shape. This will need fettling later to fit.

 

Now I fold up and solder MJT rocking W-irons. 

 

Depending in the wagon - covered I install the floor upside down, open I make up a new floor in plasticard (40thou) with planks scribed (the interior of open Slater's wagons is fairly basic and needs detailing anyway). What you are after is flat surfaces to mount the W-irons.

 

I then trial fit the w-iron assemblies (including wheels) and attach solebars to floor making sure the rocking iron is free to rock.

 

At this point check that the wagon is level (on a flat surface, or a piece of track, I check the heights of the buffers against another wagon) and shim the rocking W-iron base if necessary.

 

I then press-fit the two removed axle boxes onto the rocking iron bearings and test that the L-shaped cut fits over the springs and still rocks. Adjust the L to fit if necessary 

 

I use an L-shaped cut so that the front of the axlebox where it normally mounts on the springs can slide over the spring - it's my attempt to hide the gap when that side rocks open.

 

When all is good, fix in place.

 

In terms of other improvements, I replace the brake levers with Bill Bedford levers (he does etched for short and long handles) and on the brake push-rod pieces I remove the solid safety loops and replace them with Bill Bedford etched loops.

 

As for the buffers, up to you whether you want fixed or sprung, but I drill them out (carefully) for Wizard sprung buffer heads.

 

You should take a look at Compound2632's D299 thread for inspiration too.

 

Added:

Incidentally, for those not familiar with the MJT W-irons, and wanting to scratchbuild, the W-iron etches that MJT produce also include most of the ironwork needed on a wooden solebar (V-s and brake levers excepted). 

Edited January 27, 2020 by sharris
added note:

[sharris]

And, as they say on Blue Peter, 'here's one I did earlier'

 

 

[Compound2632]

At one time I was building Slaters kits in P4; my rather crude method was to use a MJT inside bearing compensation unit at one end, for which I had to remove some of the molded framing on the underside of the floor. These wagons were never really put to the test of running on serious layout.

 

I like @sharris's method of removing the W-iron but leaving the spring/axlebox in place - a logical extension of my method of sanding down the back of the W-irons to give a closer to scale appearance. Note also my modification to the lug on the side of the axlebox:

 

 

If I was still building P4 / truly finescale wagons, I think I would be tempted to remove everything below the solebars and replace with etched brass and cast whitemetal components (MJT) this also gives the option of 1880s 8A axleboxes, 1890s Ellis 10A axleboxes, or 20th century oil axleboxes.

 

Beware the headstock/solebar/floor interface:

 

 

@MonsalDan, I hope you will post something about your build!

 

[sharris]

@Compound2632 makes a good point about the axleboxes.

 

As all the 9' wheelbase wagons share the same underframe sprue (and because many wagons got uprated in later years) the moulded boxes may not always be the ones on a particular prototype. Also, the number-plate on the sole bar is moulded to the left of the brake V hanger - many wagons had them to the right - another fix you may want to make. And check with prototype photos whether your example has single or double sided brakes - the kits give you parts for double sided - you may need to omit one side and cut off an inner V hanger.

 

Slaters assume an early period rectangular number plate (and provide appropriate transfers) - some late MR builds had a semi-circular-ish number plate (like the LMS plates - or maybe I should say LMS plates are like late period MR plates!) - I haven't found a good solution to this yet!

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

Slater's do a set of compensated Midland W-irons. Has anyone tried them?

 

https://slatersplastikard.com/others/4mmParts/4mmfittings.php

[PenrithBeacon]

2 hours ago, sharris said:

@Compound2632

...

Slaters assume an early period rectangular number plate (and provide appropriate transfers) - some late MR builds had a semi-circular-ish number plate (like the LMS plates - or maybe I should say LMS plates are like late period MR plates!) - I haven't found a good solution to this yet!

 

I think you'll find that these plates are RCH.

Cheers

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think you'll find that these plates are RCH.

Cheers

 

The Midland adopted the D-shaped plates in 1913 - presumably thereby complying with an RCH agreement? Thus of the Slater's Midland wagon kits, they're only appropriate for the 16'6" covered goods wagon - last half-dozen lots, 1,100 wagons out of 7,195 built from 1893 onwards (the bulk from 1902) and the 1914-17 lots of the cattle wagon - 300 wagons out of 820 of this particular design built from 1905.

 

Ref. G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) and R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons (OPC, 1980).

[PenrithBeacon]

To get back to the OP, I have, some 40 years ago, compensated Slaters 4mm wagons. I used S4Soc compensation units IIRC.

Cheers

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I used S4Soc compensation units IIRC.

 

Are those components currently available to society members?

[Brassey]

46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Are those components currently available to society members?

 

Yes I believe the are still available and I have quite a stash but I am informed that a lot of the members now prefer to use sprung systems such as Bill Bedford's 

[PenrithBeacon]

5 minutes ago, Brassey said:

 

Yes I believe the are still available and I have quite a stash but I am informed that a lot of the members now prefer to use sprung systems such as Bill Bedford's 

Too complicated for me! KISS !

[Guy Rixon]

To use the Bill Bedford sprung units (see first reply in this topic for the link), one needs to carve space on the Slaters' moulded floor and then pack the axleguards 0.5mm from the floor to get the buffer height correct. I usually remove all the structures underneath the floor and sand it completely flat on the underside. I made some printed baseplates to pack and to align the axleguards; you can buy them from my Shapeways shop if the idea appeals.

[Mark Forrest]

My standard approach for all kit built wagons is to, with solebars flat and face down, file away the moulded axleguards until only the spring and axlebox remain.  Elongate the bearing hole in the axlebox, then fit Bill Bedford sprung axleguards.

Not the result of a derailment...

I really should give it some brakes...

 

[Compound2632]

@Mark Forrest, what is the function of the longitudinal rod? For a moment I took it for a continuous drawbar!

 

What buffers are those? I have to say that the buffer guides look a little on the long side.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Compound2632

[Mark Forrest]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@Mark Forrest, what is the function of the longitudinal rod? For a moment I took it for a continuous drawbar!

 

What buffers are those? I have to say that the buffer guides look a little on the long side.

I find that the brass wire helps to align the axleguards.

 

They'll be Lanarkshire Models buffers, 1'6" B033 I think they measure 6mm overall length.

 

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Mark Forrest said:

They'll be Lanarkshire Models buffers, 1'6" B033 (I think) they measure 6mm overall length.

 

 

Not Midland pattern.

[Mark Forrest]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not Midland pattern.

Looked close enough to my eyes.

 

What would you recommend as alternative?  MJT?

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Mark Forrest said:

Looked close enough to my eyes.

 

What would you recommend as alternative?  MJT?

 

As I said, I think the shanks are too long. The MJT ones look right to me. I'm perfectly happy with what comes with the kit from normal viewing distance but others may be more discriminating. 

[sharris]

1 hour ago, Mark Forrest said:

Looked close enough to my eyes.

 

What would you recommend as alternative?  MJT?

 

To my eye they look a little too cylindrical - I would expect Midland buffers to have a little bit of a taper. Whether I'd notice from normal viewing distances rather than zooming on the screen is a different matter.

 

I used to use Kean Maygib turned buffers for scratchbuilding, these days I'd opt for MJT, but on the Slater's kits I usually just drill out the hole in the kit buffers for sprung heads.

 

I like the idea of elongating the axlebox holes with BB springs - sounds neater than my method of faffing around cutting off axleboxes and reshaping them for rocking W's

Edited January 27, 2020 by sharris

[sharris]

3 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

...I usually remove all the structures underneath the floor and sand it completely flat on the underside...

 

As hinted to above, rather than taking off all the sub-floor structures to get it nice and flat, I find it simpler to use the floor as a template to make a fresh one in plasticard and scribe planking on the top and alignment lines on the bottom.

Edited January 27, 2020 by sharris

[Guy Rixon]

55 minutes ago, sharris said:

 

As hinted to above, rather than taking off all the sub-floor structures to get it nice and flat, I find it simpler to use the floor as a template to make a fresh one in plasticard and scribe planking on the top and alignment lines on the bottom.

Yes, if you're not detailing the interior this will be much quicker. If you'd need to scribe all the planking on the new floor it's a judgement call. Personally, I find scribing work slow, stressful and error-prone. YMMV.

[Compound2632]

If you're modelling a loaded or sheeted wagon, you could turn the kit's floor upside-down.

 

Not something I've yet brought myself to do!

[Kylestrome]

Am I the only heretic who doesn't bother with springing or compensation in P4?

 

My longest 'rigid' wagon is a BR Tube wagon and I've yet to see it fall off the rails. I introduce a small amount off slop by lightly rounding off the axle pinpoints. True, it might not work on a big mainline layout but it does the job on my BLT.

 

The most important thing, I find, is to make sure that every wagon has the same axle weight (50g for 2-axle, 100g for bogies).

 

David