Cambrian Railways locomotive number plates

[NCB]

Judging from pics, it seems that Cambrian locomotives either carried their numbers on rather nice cast oval number plates, or as individual brass numerals attached directly to the body.

 

Are there any general rules as to which method was applied?

 

Nigel

[corneliuslundie]

There is a bit in "Great Western Way" second edition, on pages 215 to 222 which deals with Cambrian locomotive liveries. 

Christiansen and Miller say in volum 1, page 153 "In the early days engines were dark green with triple lining of black and gold indented at panel corners, and red wheels. The only sign of ownership was a small rectangular brass plate fixed to the footplate angle above the driving axle. The same plates showed the engine number, there being no separate number plate. The plates . .  survived until 1909."

Of the Mid Wales Railway locomotives they say "all had oval cab side number plates and on joining the Cambrian were given new number plates in the same style."

They say that under Aston number plates had red backgrounds.

There were also numbers on the front buffer beam.

A little later they say  re about 1888 "a new pattern of oval number plate, the old rectangular strip having been abandoned" but it is not clear to me what is being referred to,

In volume 2 page 108 dealing with the locos bought around 1895 they say "These three classes of new engines had yet another type of number plate, similar to the WC MR design, but without the inner ring."

And on the following page "From about 1886 - and possibly earlier - engine numbers were shown on both buffer beams . . . "

And "By 1904 Aston's oval number plates had brass figures and rims on a red background".

However, the next paragraph confuses by saying "In the 1880s both Nos 3 and 45, and possibly one or two other locomotives did not have the standard rectangular number plate. Instead the name of the railway and the engine number were shown in small raised brass figures on the splashers."In 1896 Nos 63 and 68 were given "new large oval number plates with very large brass figures and no lettering."

It also says the number plate of No 64 was rectangular instead of oval, but this may refer to the tender.

Later they say "From 1899 many engines received separate brass numerals instead of number plates, but this was not consistent."They say that the 89 and 94 classes always had oval number plates, and that the 16 class and No 36 lost their brass numbers when they were rebuilt, being fitted with "rebuilt Oswestry" number plates.

Someone who did a lot of research on the subject is Nigel Digby for the first volume in his "The liveries of the pre-grouping railways" series.

He says "Elliptical brass number plates were first used in 1888 to replace the plates carried by the engines of the Mid Wales Railway."

He also says "Until his (Aston's) time all locomotives were named and the only sign of ownership was a narrow brass plate fixed to the footplate valances carrying 'CAMBRIAN RAILWAY No xx' with the appropriate number" but immediately beneath this there is a photo of Plasfynnon with

CAMBRIAN

      36

RAILWAYS

on the bunker well before 1882.

Later Nigel says "New engines were not fitted with the old brass strip numberplates . . ."

In the Jones period, Digby says that "Tender engines generally retained their cab side numberplates, but tank engines had them removed to make way for the new lettering and 6 inch brass numerals substituted on the bunker. These numerals were also used for new construction and rebuilds . . . "

Confused? So am I. All I can say is that there were trends but it is hard to say what sty;e was being used when and on what locomotives. So my recommendation would be to stick to dated photographs. Really, standardisation was not a major issue on the Cambrian.

Jonathan

[NCB]

Thanks Jonathan.  Yep, a minefield. The period I'm currently interested in (but may be interested in others) is 1900-1910.

 

In the Jones period, Digby says that "Tender engines generally retained their cab side numberplates, but tank engines had them removed to make way for the new lettering and 6 inch brass numerals substituted on the bunker. These numerals were also used for new construction and rebuilds . . . "

 

I'd wondered about the Jones livery needing the numbers to move in some cases. Mike Lloyd's drawing of the Seaham tanks shows the oval number plate on the tank sides, but I've seen pics, after the Jones livery was introduced, with brass numerals on the bunker sides. But Mike's drawing also show a position for the oval plate at the rear of the valance below the footplate, with the note position prior to grouping.

 

I'm tempted to stick to oval numberplates unless there isn't room for them! I'm thinking of seeing if Narrow Planet will do them.

 

Nigel

Edited January 26, 2020 by NCB

[NCB]

Been looking at Great Western Way. Re Plasfynnon, they have a similar picture of it dated 1904, which makes sense. The text with the Digby picture implies "around 1900". Presumably the reason for this particular style is they didn't want to put "Cambrian Railways" on the saddle tank.

 

There's a statement re no 58, Seaham class 2-4-0T, which says that the oval number plate was retained and placed between CAMRIAN and RAILWAYS, where the feathers would normally go. This fits in with Mike Lloyd's drawing of number 58, which is annotated as "circa 1904".  C. C. Green's Cambrian Railways Album has a pic of no 59, dated 1905 which shows CAMBRIAN <feathers> RAILWAY in the usual style, and with 59 on the bunker side; however, it looks to me as though the number has been painted, rather than brass numerals used.

 

Nigel

Edited January 27, 2020 by NCB

[corneliuslundie]

Actually the loco on page 75 of "Cambrian Railways Album" is no. 58 but the point is still valid, and it is a nice comparison with the photo of No. 59 in 1894 con page 53, with the nameplate on the tank above the front driving wheel and the numberplate on the same panel but at the cab end. The lining is also pretty clear.

Some time ago I started listing places where photos and drawings of Cambrian locos have appeared in print or from societies. I attach it in case it is any use to anyone, though it is now a bit out of date. You may be aware that I am taking the lead (I am not really the author as there will be nothing new in the text) on two books to be published by the WRRC on drawings of Cambrian locos and rolling stock. The starting point for these is the Mike Lloyd/Trefor Jones drawings, but in this case they will need supplementing quite a bit. If all goes well the first volume, covering the period to 1892, should appear sometime in 2021.

Incidentally, I have recently come across a gentleman who has produced some wonderful 7mm models of Cambrian locos. They go out with the Barrowmore MRC Cambrian layouts, which occasionally appear at exhibitions. He has modelled at least 19 Cambrian locos.

Jonathan

Cambrian locos drawings and photos.doc

[NCB]

I thought it looked like 58, but the text said 59, and I half convinced myself it was just a very badly done 9!

 

Thanks for the list, very useful. I didn't have a complete list of the locos and wondered if one existed. I saw that you mentioned some days ago that you were working on the WRRC Cambrian books, which I expressed keen interest in. I have virtually nothing on the period up to 1892, apart from what appears in books, so that would be welcome; although at the moment I'm aiming at 1900-1910 for modelling, I'm beginning to realise something earlier would have its attractions. I not infrequently look at the Barrowmore Johnstown Road layout for inspiration!

 

At the moment I've scratch built a Cambrian inside frame brake van and a 2 plank dropside wagon, in 3mm/ft. Also Coast Line Models has reduced some of his wagons for me, so I've completed the 15 ton coal wagon, have some 2 plank fixed side wagons awaiting painting, and have three 9' 4 1/2" vans for which I'm working on the chasses. I've done the etchings for a Seaham class, yet to build it, and have mostly built an Albion and tender, the bodies being 3D prints from Sparkshot. I've several D&S coaches to build (done one, but in GWR livery). I'm intending to do more etches for locomotives, and hopefully some coaches. I've done a sheet of wagon transfers for the 3mm Society and intend to do more.

 

I've a number of wagon and coach drawings from the NRM (OPC) collection, plus a works drawing for an Aston goods and tender, and several drawings from HMRS, all Mike Lloyd. Also a Mike Lloyd drawing of  an Albion 2-4-0, not sure where it came from.

 

Nigel

 

[corneliuslundie]

The only Cambrian models I have actually built are a pair of timber wagons and a cattle wagon, all lettered for the GWR period for my Sarn layout; and a pair of ex Mid Wales Railway dumb buffered timber wagons which are in Cambrian livery for occasional appearances in South Wales. The timber wagons were all built from drawings obtained from the HMRS. I seem to remember that the cattle wagon was a Model Wagon Co effort. I have a 1930 period model of 1192 on the stocks, but at the moment I need a visit to an Alan Gibson stand at a show to get some extra coupling rod washers to replace those which have joined the other debris in that black hole somewhere under the workbench. I do have a Taff Vale Models Cambrian van kit to make but am being very self controlled and waiting until I have finished current 7 mm builds for the club layout - which will include a pair of the aforesaid Cambrian timber wagons.

I have been recommended the pretty new book by David Maidment - "Cambrian Railways gallery" published last November by Pen & Sword. At £30 it will have to be a birthday present, Apparently it is worth it for the photos. I can see I shall have to be updating my lists.

Jonathan

[Steamport Southport]

There's a preview of the book on Amazon. Click by the cover where it says Look Inside.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambrian-Railways-Gallery-Pictorial-Journey/dp/1526736039/ref=sr_1_1?crid=Z1C00SZIWPFH&keywords=cambrian+railways&qid=1580446365&s=books&sprefix=cambrian+%2Cstripbooks%2C188&sr=1-1

 

 

 

 

Jason

[NCB]

Yep, just bought it, not yet had a chance to look at it. At £21 on Amazon it's distinctly cheaper than the £30 official price.

 

Shame about the C. C. Green series coming to a halt in the way it did. A potentially very valuable resource sold off in bits.

Edited January 31, 2020 by NCB

[PenrithBeacon]

Are there any preserved Cambrian number plates? I can't remember ever seeing one.

Cheers

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the heads up re Amazon. If Booklaw do not have it at a suitable price tomorrow at Stafford that will be my route.

I have been told however that there are several errors in captions, including either Portmadoc station being called Barmouth or vice versa. I shall have to try to spot them.

Jonathan

[tanatvalley]

58 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Are there any preserved Cambrian number plates? I can't remember ever seeing one.

Cheers

No. 16 at the NRM York. There may be an example in the Penrhyn Castle Museum.

[NCB]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks for the heads up re Amazon. If Booklaw do not have it at a suitable price tomorrow at Stafford that will be my route.

I have been told however that there are several errors in captions, including either Portmadoc station being called Barmouth or vice versa. I shall have to try to spot them.

Jonathan

 

There are quite a few; I had a look just after I posted the previous message. Dates on some pics seem to be wrong; e.g. Aston 0-6-0s on Page 94 stated as just after construction in 1894 and 1895 but in Jones liveries; page 32 Albion class 2-4-0 dated as 1903 but appears to have CAMBRIAN on the tender; page 55 0-4-4T no 7 pic dated as 1910 but it has CAMBRIAN  on the tender; a pic claimed taken at Machynlleth but it isn't; and so on.

 

However, it's a good book with loads of pics, very well produced. Some of course have appeared elsewhere, but a lot I haven't seen before. There's a good chapter portraying Oswestry locomotive works, and also later pics from early BR.

[NCB]

1 hour ago, tanatvalley said:

No. 16 at the NRM York. There may be an example in the Penrhyn Castle Museum.

Have seen a good colour pic, a modern one, in a book somewhere but can't remember which!

[ChrisN]

On 28/01/2020 at 22:29, corneliuslundie said:

Actually the loco on page 75 of "Cambrian Railways Album" is no. 58 but the point is still valid, and it is a nice comparison with the photo of No. 59 in 1894 con page 53, with the nameplate on the tank above the front driving wheel and the numberplate on the same panel but at the cab end. The lining is also pretty clear.

Some time ago I started listing places where photos and drawings of Cambrian locos have appeared in print or from societies. I attach it in case it is any use to anyone, though it is now a bit out of date. You may be aware that I am taking the lead (I am not really the author as there will be nothing new in the text) on two books to be published by the WRRC on drawings of Cambrian locos and rolling stock. The starting point for these is the Mike Lloyd/Trefor Jones drawings, but in this case they will need supplementing quite a bit. If all goes well the first volume, covering the period to 1892, should appear sometime in 2021.

Incidentally, I have recently come across a gentleman who has produced some wonderful 7mm models of Cambrian locos. They go out with the Barrowmore MRC Cambrian layouts, which occasionally appear at exhibitions. He has modelled at least 19 Cambrian locos.

Jonathan

Cambrian locos drawings and photos.doc 97 kB · 2 downloads

 

Johnathan,

Thank you for this list, it will save me hours of looking through books.

 

There are a number of photo collections, how do we access these if we want to?

[ChrisN]

On 31/01/2020 at 05:00, Steamport Southport said:

There's a preview of the book on Amazon. Click by the cover where it says Look Inside.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambrian-Railways-Gallery-Pictorial-Journey/dp/1526736039/ref=sr_1_1?crid=Z1C00SZIWPFH&keywords=cambrian+railways&qid=1580446365&s=books&sprefix=cambrian+%2Cstripbooks%2C188&sr=1-1

 

Jason

 

Jason,

Thank you for the 'heads up' on this.

 

On 31/01/2020 at 23:35, NCB said:

 

There are quite a few; I had a look just after I posted the previous message. Dates on some pics seem to be wrong; e.g. Aston 0-6-0s on Page 94 stated as just after construction in 1894 and 1895 but in Jones liveries; page 32 Albion class 2-4-0 dated as 1903 but appears to have CAMBRIAN on the tender; page 55 0-4-4T no 7 pic dated as 1910 but it has CAMBRIAN  on the tender; a pic claimed taken at Machynlleth but it isn't; and so on.

 

However, it's a good book with loads of pics, very well produced. Some of course have appeared elsewhere, but a lot I haven't seen before. There's a good chapter portraying Oswestry locomotive works, and also later pics from early BR.

 

Nigel,

Thank you for the review.  It is nice to see that there are some new photos.  

[corneliuslundie]

That is sometimes the problem. Those held by the societies are usually no problem  and often there is a list on the website but too many of them have either disappeared or ended up with the NRM which sees them as a way to make money - we were recently quoted a reproduction fee of £30 per photo for a WRRC publication, for photos which are technically pout of copyright (taken in 1930). This includes the Ian Allan collection and several other well known ones. The C C Green collection has been scattered to the four winds, though there are some in Welshpool museum I must investigate. Sorry this is not very useful. I am going to have the same problem myself. Perhaps I should produce a list of collections and where, if anywhere, they reside.

Jonathan