Accuracy of Lima LMS GUV 37762

[Dunsignalling]

On 08/02/2020 at 21:40, The Johnster said:

Been checking photos on HMRS Paul’s sire prior to having a go at this van tomoz.  Paul’s site usually clears things up, but in this case raises questions.  Photos of bogie CCT and Parcels & Luggage (PLV) vans are shown, neither calling themselves GUVs and as far as I can make out identical, or at least the variations occur on both types and are not specific to one.  Why would a PLV need end doors?  
 

Main reason for checking was that Mr Dunsignalling mentioned roof vents and the photo of his excellent workup shows shell vents; Lima provide torpedoes.  Paul’s photos show both types with both, so unless a person of greater LMS erudition tells me otherwise, I’m going with the Lima torpedoes!

 

 

Look more closely, the vents on mine are definitely the torpedo sort though, on reflection, maybe I should have countersunk them into the roof a bit more.

 

The use of the GUV epithet was, I think, brought in for bogie vans with end doors by BR to help distinguish them from four and six-wheeled stock designated as CCT. This seems to have worked well on all regions except the ER where all manner of suffixes were added to bogie "CCTs" in order to confuse matters.

 

Vans without end doors cannot, by definition, be either CCTs or GUVs, but some ex-SR CCTs (previously designated Covcars by the SR) later had their end-doors sealed up and were reclassified as PMV (Parcels & Miscellaneous Van). I always understood PLV to mean Passenger Luggage Van, but maybe that was a regional nicety. I don't think the Southern Region used it at all, their non-CCT 4-wheelers (other than the BYs with guard accommodation) all being designated PMV,  

 

John

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Dunsignalling
Photo reinstated

[TheSignalEngineer]

42 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I always understood PLV to mean Passenger Luggage Van

David Jenkinson refers to them as Luggage and Parcels Vans in his listings.

 

44 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

on reflection, maybe I should have countersunk them into the roof a bit more.

I think the ones built c1934 had the big size vents. Lot 1054 built c1937 look like the squashed variety.

[The Johnster]

I thought a PLV was something like the SR 'Utility Van' once produced by Triang, basically a BG without the B part and fulfilling a similar function to the GW's gangwayed Siphon G and J vans.  PMV stands for Parcels and Miscellaneous (I once though it was Mails) Van, and as has been stated these were developed or converted from Covcar.  A PLV if it is a Passenger Luggage Van should (IMHO) have gangways so that the passengers can access their luggage if they need to, but there is a good bit of room for confusion here as different railways used different names for vehicles built for the same purpose, and there is little difference in practice between a PLV and a Siphon in this case, but the names continued in use post-nationalisation.  

 

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Dunsignalling

 

[The Johnster]

I thought a PLV was something like the SR 'Utility Van' once produced by Triang, basically a BG without the B part and fulfilling a similar function to the GW's gangwayed Siphon G and J vans.  PMV stands for Parcels and Miscellaneous (I once though it was Mails) Van, and as has been stated these were developed or converted from Covcar.  A PLV if it is a Passenger Luggage Van should (IMHO) have gangways so that the passengers can access their luggage if they need to, but there is a good bit of room for confusion here as different railways used different names for vehicles built for the same purpose, and there is little difference in practice between a PLV and a Siphon in this case, but the names continued in use post-nationalisation.  

 

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Dunsignalling

 

[The Johnster]

I seem to be repeating myself, something I ate earlier perhaps...

 

I will be retaining the torpedo vents on my van, but Paul's site shows photos of both CCT and PLV bogie 42footers which look more or less the same to me with both types of ventilators.  There are shots of a restored horsebox's interior (these were of course used for carrying restored horses...) which is cream, so I'll do a dirty cream interior, not that it'll show much especially once I've weathered the thing.  If it's still in LMS livery in the 50s, it's going to have to be pretty dirty.

[Steamport Southport]

Passenger Luggage Vans were just that. Luggage vans for passenger trains. Mostly boat trains. That's why the SR had so many.

 

 

Torpedo vents were discontinued in the mid to late 1930s.

 

LMS van interior cream. But some had a darker colour up to waist or ceiling height. Either crimson or Brunswick green*. They followed the same interior painting criteria as brake vans.

 

https://www.ssplprints.com/image/127316/interior-of-an-lms-brake-van-20-november-1939

 

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/32975.html

 

https://www.ssplprints.com/image/99176/interior-of-a-lms-luggage-and-parcel-van-22-may-1933

 

 

*Can't remember the source for Brunswick green

 

 

 

Jason

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I seem to be repeating myself, something I ate earlier perhaps...

 

I will be retaining the torpedo vents on my van, but Paul's site shows photos of both CCT and PLV bogie 42footers which look more or less the same to me with both types of ventilators.  There are shots of a restored horsebox's interior (these were of course used for carrying restored horses...) which is cream, so I'll do a dirty cream interior, not that it'll show much especially once I've weathered the thing.  If it's still in LMS livery in the 50s, it's going to have to be pretty dirty.

To further muddy the waters, some LMS 42' vans were built with higher roofs, of a slightly different profile, and were called 'Aircraft Vans' They went by the mid-1960s

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I thought a PLV was something like the SR 'Utility Van' once produced by Triang, basically a BG without the B part and fulfilling a similar function to the GW's gangwayed Siphon G and J vans.  PMV stands for Parcels and Miscellaneous (I once though it was Mails) Van, and as has been stated these were developed or converted from Covcar.  A PLV if it is a Passenger Luggage Van should (IMHO) have gangways so that the passengers can access their luggage if they need to, but there is a good bit of room for confusion here as different railways used different names for vehicles built for the same purpose, and there is little difference in practice between a PLV and a Siphon in this case, but the names continued in use post-nationalisation.  

 

 

Those were coded GLV, Gangwayed Luggage Van.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I seem to be repeating myself, something I ate earlier perhaps...

 

I will be retaining the torpedo vents on my van, but Paul's site shows photos of both CCT and PLV bogie 42footers which look more or less the same to me with both types of ventilators.  There are shots of a restored horsebox's interior (these were of course used for carrying restored horses...) which is cream, so I'll do a dirty cream interior, not that it'll show much especially once I've weathered the thing.  If it's still in LMS livery in the 50s, it's going to have to be pretty dirty.

Paul's photos seem to be fairly late, so I suspect that the PLV coding indicates that the end doors had been sealed up to make the vans more weathertight for parcels traffic in the same way as the ex-SR CCTs I mentioned earlier. 

 

The BR interior colour for the interiors of such vans was described as "Stone" and from the few luggage areas I remember riding in on very crowded services, it was somewhere on the borderline between cream and light buff.

 

John

Edited February 9, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There are shots of a restored horsebox's interior (these were of course used for carrying restored horses...) which is cream, so I'll do a dirty cream interior, not that it'll show much especially once I've weathered the thing.  If it's still in LMS livery in the 50s, it's going to have to be pretty dirty.

I don't know about the interior of these vans but Jenkinson quotes the LMS livery for the interior of Brake  vans was white ceiling and top 14" then terra cotta below. Unfortunately he then shows a picture of the interior of a non-corridor Brake compartment with the dark colour right to the top of the sides and a chalk panel on the inside of the door at eye level.

 

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

To further muddy the waters, some LMS 42' vans were built with higher roofs, of a slightly different profile, and were called 'Aircraft Vans' They went by the mid-1960s

The original six  Aeroplane Vans to D1880 were a different animal. They had vertical planked sides and a high roof without ventilators.

A further ten LPVs numbered in the Aeroplane Van series were built to D2023 in 1938. These were steel panelled like Lima's D1870 but about 7" higher.

And don't forget the Elephant Van. 37706 was modified in 1937 with a steel floor, heavier springing and tethering rings inside.

[Dunsignalling]

Just as a matter of curiosity, Lima also offered this model finished in BR Crimson/cream. Did any of them actually run in that livery?

 

If not, the one in my stash is going plain crimson....

 

John

[Metr0Land]

Ref the CCT/GUV issue, there's a pic in David Larkin's BR General Parcels Rolling Stock - A Pictorial Survey showing one of these re-classified as GUV in BR days.  Copyright pic and words used under fair usage doctrine, happy to remove if Mods object.

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

Ref the CCT/GUV issue, there's a pic in David Larkin's BR General Parcels Rolling Stock - A Pictorial Survey showing one of these re-classified as GUV in BR days.  Copyright pic and words used under fair usage doctrine, happy to remove if Mods object.

Interesting that so much of the original ersatz panelling remained in place that late. I understand bits of it were removed as and when they became loose.

 

John

Edited February 9, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Fat Controller]

It was not unknown for vans to be recoded. One case in point were the SR 4-wheel CCTs; as newer vehicles replaced them, the end doors were secured shut, and the code 'PMV' was given to them.

I wonder how many vehicles were ever carried in CCts and GUVs? The only photo I've seen of them 'en masse' was in the early 1960s, loading MGs from Abingdon.

[The Johnster]

Managed to get a bit done to this today.  I bottled out of trying to get inside it as the plastic just feels too brittle to be mangled about in this way, but have installed the replacement bogies; a step had to be cut off one of them.  Bit of experimentation showed that the best way forward was to cut clearance holes for the wheels in the floor, as far as the metal ballast weight, and remove the pivot pins from the Dapol bogies.  Then you superglue them upside down in the hole in the floor left by the Lima pins.  You will need to provide a washer or spacer of about 1mm; I actually used some carpet staples which I happened to have to hand.   The result, with Hornby wheels, is a free running free pivoting bogie which holds the van at exactly the correct height.  

 

I've touched up the handbrake wheel and am allowing everything to go off overnight before applying the weathering, possibly tomoz but we'll see how the day goes.  I'm happy with the Lima buffers but may put proper handrails on some time in the future, along with decent door handles.  Cheap and cheerful, but a nice little GUV and I'm happy with it.

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

It was not unknown for vans to be recoded. One case in point were the SR 4-wheel CCTs; as newer vehicles replaced them, the end doors were secured shut, and the code 'PMV' was given to them.

I wonder how many vehicles were ever carried in CCts and GUVs? The only photo I've seen of them 'en masse' was in the early 1960s, loading MGs from Abingdon.

One regular use of the Southern type (though not in block trains) in that period was delivering VW vans from the port of entry to Sidmouth for Devon Conversions to turn into campers.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 19:52, The Johnster said:

Managed to get a bit done to this today.  I bottled out of trying to get inside it as the plastic just feels too brittle to be mangled about in this way, but have installed the replacement bogies; a step had to be cut off one of them.  Bit of experimentation showed that the best way forward was to cut clearance holes for the wheels in the floor, as far as the metal ballast weight, and remove the pivot pins from the Dapol bogies.  Then you superglue them upside down in the hole in the floor left by the Lima pins.  You will need to provide a washer or spacer of about 1mm; I actually used some carpet staples which I happened to have to hand.   The result, with Hornby wheels, is a free running free pivoting bogie which holds the van at exactly the correct height.  

 

I've touched up the handbrake wheel and am allowing everything to go off overnight before applying the weathering, possibly tomoz but we'll see how the day goes.  I'm happy with the Lima buffers but may put proper handrails on some time in the future, along with decent door handles.  Cheap and cheerful, but a nice little GUV and I'm happy with it.

I must admit that the first one I dismantled would have scared me too, but for the fact that I'd picked it up with two broken buffers and a bogie missing for 50p and was willing to sacrifice it on the altar of skill acquisition if push came to shove. 

 

That one has Airfix bogies fitted similarly to yours (but done from inside) and I've done rather less to it than the one in my photo. The bogies unclip easily (unlike the Bachmann ones on the other van), so it is provided with three; two fitted with Kadees and one with a tension lock and can quickly be pressed into service as a translator vehicle.

 

I haven't wrecked any glazing yet. (Famous last words).

 

John

Edited February 11, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

I haven’t wrecked any glazing yet either, at least mot on this particular model.  Weathering is done and it’s starting to look the part with it’s dirty windows. I will need a modification to the bogies similar to that I used on a rebogied Lima Siphon G, bits cut off a washing up sponge dipped in the weathering gunge glued to the bogie cross member each side of the pin to hold the body level in a sprung way.  

[The Johnster]

A bit sideways, but here’s my effort!

[GRUNFOS]

Hi

I am currently doing two at the moment that will be finished in blue, any ideas where to get a suitable number transfer sheet from? 

Thanks Paul

[Fat Controller]

32 minutes ago, GRUNFOS said:

Hi

I am currently doing two at the moment that will be finished in blue, any ideas where to get a suitable number transfer sheet from? 

Thanks Paul

I don't think anyone does transfers for these. Transfers for an ordinary GUV, with a new number, might do; the smaller text is barely readable unless you're pressing your nose against the model. Otherwise, it might be possible to get Railtec to do some.

[GRUNFOS]

Thanks for that, no wonder I could not find any with a search! I have asked Railtec if they have anything suitable but for now I will investigate further.

Regards Paul

[The Johnster]

If all else fails you can make the numbers up from the HMRS sheet, but it's a faffy job.

[TheSignalEngineer]

This was one I did some years ago.