Easton, Isle of Portland

[Mick Bonwick]

What a fiddly job!

 

I'm used to small bits and dropping things, but this installation has really put my patience to the test. The instructions are very clear and contain lots of words, but when you read them in conjunction with a physical installation things are less clear. Never mind, I got Percy* along to help and we got there in the end.

 

I knew there would be some 'pinging' going on. I was going to be using small bits with tweezers and that's a sure sign that the small bits would ping off somewhere. They did! The operating wires that connect the point motor to the point are provided in 4 different shapes to cope with differing mounting scenarios. If you don't get these wires parallel to the mounting base during installation and setup they self-eject. I foresaw this and laid down sheets of white paper so that I had at least a small chance of recovering them, but didn't give any thought to the possibility of them burrowing into the gaps between the sheets.

 

It's a very good job that in my case the control unit was to be positioned above the baseboard. You need to be able to see the pretty blue LEDs while you are making adjustments to the length of travel of the operating wire. If the control unit is below the baseboard and the point motor is above it, there would be a lot of upping and downing, toing and froing and cursing and swearing. I do enough of that as it is, without having to do it in the workshop as well.

 

The motors don't have much oomph. If there is the slightest resistance to their movement they make a lot of noise but don't actually move the thingy along the rod. The precise name of this mechanism escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure that somebody will soon put me out of my misery once this account has been read a couple of times. The motor turns a threaded rod upon which a threaded boss is mounted, and this turning motion moves the boss along the rod. The operating wire fits into a hole in the boss and is only an interference fit. The significance of that is that if the pressure on the operating wire is too great it will flex and that interference is not enough to prevent self-extrication. I found that the part of the operating wire that is underneath the point's stretcher bar was rubbing along the foam track base, thus providing resistance to movement. The result of all this was that the rod tried to turn and drive the boss towards the point, but that small bit of resistance was too much; there was a lot of noise from the motor, nothing moved that should and the pinging started. The solution was to dig out a channel in the foam trackbed underneath the path of the operating wire.

 

These two photographs show the control unit and one point motor before and after installation. The over-centre springs have been removed from the points, as per DCC Concepts' instructions.

 

 

 

These two photographs show the other point motor, likewise before and after installation.

 

 

 

 

The completed installation looks like this:

 

 

I have tested the operation of the pair of points using JMRI, and it only failed to work once out of 25 operations. This crossover will only be rarely used, so that level of failure (if it continues) is acceptable. If I took the time to check every possible cause of that one (so far) failure there would be unacceptable delays to the next stage of construction.

 

Conclusion? It works but takes a long time to get working for people like me, even if you follow the instructions to the letter. I'll be making sure there are never any more points placed above baseboard cross-members.

 

* Percy Verence.

[Stubby47]

 Percy.

 

[Stubby47]

That does seem to be an awful lot of bother to fit two point motors, notwithstanding the JMRI complications as well.

 

Hopefully the screws go through the foam into the baseboard, or else they will be moving out of alignment fairly soon.

 

(Apologies for any typos, I have had to set my local environment to Italy to enable some application testing to take place...)

[Mick Bonwick]

21 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

That does seem to be an awful lot of bother to fit two point motors, notwithstanding the JMRI complications as well.

 

I was determined to fit them to something, somewhere, having bought them in the first place, and my self inflicted predicament seemed to fit the bill. JMRI is good, as long as you can find the right person to answer all the questions that inevitably arise.

 

21 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Hopefully the screws go through the foam into the baseboard, or else they will be moving out of alignment fairly soon.

 

They're 1/2" screws, so those motors ain't goin' anywhere!

 

21 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

(Apologies for any typos, I have had to set my local environment to Italy to enable some application testing to take place...)

 

Intriguing!

[Tony Teague]

I feel your pain, but I think you just described why I still like Peco solenoids!

[RodneyV]

Hi Mick,

 

I've also purchased the DCC Concepts above baseboard point motors and decided after a few hours it was all too hard. Rest assured I had them fitting and working and the linkage unlinked itself and that was the end of it.

The concept I believe is excellent, the electronics side is great. It is just the robustness of the motor and the link to the point is the let down. I couldn't see them operating reliably. The area I had them positioned will be hidden, hence my desire to change to another mode of operation.

 

Thanks for your thread.

 

Regards

 

Rodney

[benjy14]

1 hour ago, RodneyV said:

Hi Mick,

 

I've also purchased the DCC Concepts above baseboard point motors and decided after a few hours it was all too hard. Rest assured I had them fitting and working and the linkage unlinked itself and that was the end of it.

The concept I believe is excellent, the electronics side is great. It is just the robustness of the motor and the link to the point is the let down. I couldn't see them operating reliably. The area I had them positioned will be hidden, hence my desire to change to another mode of operation.

 

Thanks for your thread.

 

Regards

 

Rodney

 

Hi Mick & Rodney,

 

Hate to say it but I agree with Rodney; excellent idea let down by the motors having such low torque (due to the design you described) that they are simply too unreliable (I found the "best" I could get was about 1 failure in 10...). For me, any chance of the motor failing to drive the point is unacceptable and in the end, after hours of frustration, I removed the Cobalt-SS from my layout and now use the excellent, bullet-proof MP1 point motor instead.

 

Cheers,

Ben

[Mick Bonwick]

22 hours ago, RodneyV said:

The concept I believe is excellent, the electronics side is great. It is just the robustness of the motor and the link to the point is the let down.

 

Hi Rodney,

 

I agree entirely. I have considered fabricating a revised version of the wire link with the same arrangement at each end:

        _______

____|

 

Attaching it would mean removing each motor in order to make the connections, though, and I'm not sure I want to do that now that it is all working. Fingers crossed . . . . . . . .

[Mick Bonwick]

21 hours ago, benjy14 said:

 

 I removed the Cobalt-SS from my layout and now use the excellent, bullet-proof MP1 point motor instead.

 

 

Hi Ben,

 

That is an interesting idea! Do you drive the MP1 with the DCC Concepts decoder, or with something else?

[JSModels]

I discovered the MP1 point motors a few months ago, having never heard of them previously, and I can definitely recommend them! Low profile, simple to fit (they're adjustable in every direction) and built-in frog switches. Price is pretty reasonable too, considering the other options available.

 

The only complaint I have is that the 3mm movement is just a bit too much, and does stress the Peco bullhead point blades slightly if your baseboards are really thin (thicker baseboards would allow slightly more flex in the pin).

[Mick Bonwick]

Thank you, jrb, that's exactly the response I was hoping for. I have just asked a question seeking this answer on the main "Questions" page!

 

Does the pin you mention come with the device or do you/can you make your own?

 

Answering one question can subject you to many more.

[Stubby47]

7 minutes ago, jrb said:

I discovered the MP1 point motors a few months ago, having never heard of them previously, and I can definitely recommend them! Low profile, simple to fit (they're adjustable in every direction) and built-in frog switches. Price is pretty reasonable too, considering the other options available.

 

The only complaint I have is that the 3mm movement is just a bit too much, and does stress the Peco bullhead point blades slightly if your baseboards are really thin (thicker baseboards would allow slightly more flex in the pin).

 

Would an offset hole, with Omega loops, help ?

 

There is also the option of using Wire-in-tube, with the point motor mounted on the top, but someway from the point.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Stubby47

[JSModels]

1 minute ago, Stubby47 said:

 

Would an offset hole, with Omega loops, help ?

 

If I was mounting them topside, next to the points (as Mick has done above) then yes, an omega loop would be useful. In my case, I mounted them directly underneath the points, and the baseboard is only 6mm thick, so I'm not sure how I could ease it. But it's only very slightly overthrown, and (touchwood) hasn't caused any issues yet!

[Mick Bonwick]

Since looking into this a bit further, by checking the manufacturer's website, it seems that you could make up a pin of your own using more flexible wire. That would reduce the risk of damage as long as the new wire is strong enough to move the tie bar.

 

Thanks for your responses, jrb.

 

P.S. I'll be building one of your kits soon!

Edited July 15, 2020 by Mick Bonwick

[benjy14]

4 hours ago, Mick Bonwick said:

 

Hi Ben,

 

That is an interesting idea! Do you drive the MP1 with the DCC Concepts decoder, or with something else?

 

Hi Mick,

 

As I use Digiekijs on my layout, I use a DR4018 to drive them and then detect their position using the in-built switch connected to a DR4088. There is an enhanced version that has more than one switch if you need frog polarity switching (I don't need this on my large US layout as my smallest locomotive has 16 wheels that pick-up current, so if they stall in an insulfrog point, I have bigger problems!). If you are interested, the DR4018 should work with any DCC system as it just sits on the accessory bus.

 

They really are brilliant and I wish I had discovered them sooner as I would not have used Peco solenoid motors had I known...

 

Cheers,

Ben

[Mick Bonwick]

The point control adventure continues.

 

Last year I acquired a Train-Tech PC2 Quad Point Controller, from "a bloke at the club". I can't now remember if it was surplus to requirements or it didn't work or some other reason. During my deliberations over point motor control and searching boxes for accessory decoders I came across said PC2 and thought I'd play with it.

 

 

I have 4 spare SEEP PM1s that are kept in case those in the fiddle yard stop working. They were connected to the PC2, which was configured with unused addresses, and tested. Two worked and two didn't. I fairly quickly deduced that if two of them worked then the PC2 was OK, but this led me to wonder why two of them didn't work.

 

Watching the point motors while issuing the change command from the DCC handset indicated that they were offering too much resistance to the power being generated by the PC2. There was a reaction from the solenoid actuating rod, but no meaningful movement. Moving the actuating rod by hand confirmed that there was quite a bit of resistance when the rod was at the extreme end of its travel.

 

 

Out came the special lubricant and it was added to the places I thought it would do some good. It didn't.

 

I eventually worked out that the brass contact for the integral switch was getting trapped in the plastic housing gap, thus providing enough resistance to the advances of the current to prevent movement. The insertion of a small screwdriver blade into the gap, and a little bit of wriggling about, gave enough extra room for the contact and everything started working as (presumably) designed.

 

 

It may well be the case, of course, that this problem and its solution have been reported on here any number of times, but I couldn't find any mention of them in the brief time I spent searching.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Mick Bonwick

[Stubby47]

I have a Seep which is not behaving on Tinners, so I might look at that solution before I rip it out and discard.

[Mick Bonwick]

The MTB MP1 motors have arrived, but they're in quarantine at the moment. They'll be opened on Monday, so any progress with them will be reported then.

 

In the meantime I have been laying the LED feed wire to all the SEEP PM1 point motors in the fiddle yard.

 

 

Now that that has been completed, all of the wiring is in place for the control panel. I just have to design and build it.

 

A long time ago I ordered a Dapol (Rails of Sheffield) Terrier with sound fitted. The advertised design included a Next18 decoder and a factory fitted speaker and, despite my reluctance to use sound in steam locomotives and the horrendous (at the time) cost, I thought that I'd order it anyway. The model arrived this week and, despite my trepidation, it has turned out to be rather good. The chuff rate had to be amended to synchronise with the wheel revolutions, but other than that it was straight out of the box and onto the head of a 2-coach suburban set.

[Alister_G]

On 15/07/2020 at 16:44, Mick Bonwick said:

 

 

I believe the use of the cardboard cutout arrow is an essential adjunct to fault-finding, and should be encouraged.

 

Al.

 

[Mick Bonwick]

A very brief update on the Cobalt-SS installation. One of them (137 in the previous illustration) self-ejected the operating wire this afternoon and the other (138) just simply didn't do anything. I unplugged 138 from the decoder and plugged it back in again and it worked. Once.

 

They'll be removed shortly and be replaced by the MP1s. I'll report on how that goes in due course.

 

For interest's sake I have operated a Tortoise, a Cobalt Classic, a Cobalt-SS and an MP1 in succession to compare noisiness. The result from this not-very-scientific experiment is, in order of noise (quietest first):

 

Cobalt-SS

MP1

Tortoise

Cobalt Classic

 

Make of that what you will.

[Stubby47]

Servos...

 

[Mick Bonwick]

1 minute ago, Stubby47 said:

Servos...

 

 

Bless you.

[Mick Bonwick]

2 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Servos...

 

 

If I had any I'd have tried them. I don't so I didn't.

 

Which would you recommend and how would you drive them?

[Stubby47]

MERG do simple single servo boards, or a 4-servo board.

 

The servos are cheap from the internet - MERG recommend a couple of alternatives.

 

MERG Stuff can, of course, be used with JMRI and other stuff - @peter220950  (plus many others) could give far more advice.

 

Also : https://www.merg.org.uk/merg_resources/servos.php

Edited July 22, 2020 by Stubby47

[Harlequin]

Megapoints do 12 servo controllers amongst many other very useful bits and pieces.

 

I think @ISW uses servos controlled by Megapoints kit and he has some nice details showing how to mount them.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Harlequin