Corona-virus - Impact of the Health Situation worldwide

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

What seems to be happening is people are laying into the government

 

It is a political issue but I am removing silly jibes about our government* when I notice them.

 

* I can't do much about Trump, in a different league. 

[Crisis Rail]

15 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I thought the whole point was to be isolationist just now....

 

Is the thread going political now? Personally I don't mind political argument but we either allow politics or we don't.  What seems to be happening is people are laying into the government,  Trump and the US and taking political points at the same time as saying let's keep politics out of it.

 

Whether it's political or not the Government's performance has to be measured in whatever media and issues especially the NHS brought to the forefront when all this mess is over.

 

[robert17649]

there will as they say be a reckoning.

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, robert17649 said:

 

No guarantee that it is correct but a reliable source at my local club tells me that the FA has expunged results at lower levels. I think that means no  change to league status for next season.

 

Yes, they announced that yesterday or the day before.

 

My grumble isn’t about league places, which are trivial things in the grand scheme, but how FA-central messaged over the health implications of playing and practising football, or rather didn’t.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

I thought the whole point was to be isolationist just now....

 

Is the thread going political now? Personally I don't mind political argument but we either allow politics or we don't.  What seems to be happening is people are laying into the government,  Trump and the US and taking political points at the same time as saying let's keep politics out of it.

 

Sorry, that might be me. I'm trying hard to keep party politics out of it and set tribal loyalties to one side. It's difficult when the government is the management and you feel that the situation is being poorly managed for it not to come across as political. For me it genuinely is a managerial issue and that's why I likened it to the WR go it alone approach. 

 

Also a couple of other bits of news have come my way, both from the Netherlands, one positive, one less so.

 

In the Netherlands an escalating series of directions were given to the citizens, much like us here, It looks like these measures have brought down the number of people one person with the virus can infect to just under one. Though they will see an increase in hospital cases as those infected work there way through the system there is hope that the virus will slowly peter out.

 

Less good is the news that mass testing is being hampered in the Netherlands by a major drugs company. It's explained here in Dutch Review. Whether this also hampers UK efforts to scale up testing I don't know.

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

 

 

There is no way that we can know this one way or the other. What the decision does is  expose a division in approach, cooperation vs an almost wilful independence. From my layman's position it seems as though cooperation is required to beat the virus. We have been asked to act cooperatively, reduce contact to the minimum, buy only what we need, stay at home. At an international level there are a couple of 'oven ready' organisations in a position to facilitate cooperation between countries, globally the World Health Organisation and regionally the European Union.  Our government appear to have problems working with both. It puts me in mind of the Western Region's attitude to being part of British Railways, an almost contrary desire to do things differently and a sense of exceptionalism.

 

Your first point in bold may be correct, but what this crisis has shown is that even if you are in a big club such as the EU there has been an unwillingness of partner countries to help each other.

 

Quote from the Guardian last night

Earlier in the day, the European commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, rebuked member states for “looking out for themselves” during the early phases of the crisis.

Taking an unusually critical tone, she said the story of the past few weeks had been partly a painful one.

“When Europe really needed an all-for-one spirit, too many initially gave an only-for-me response. And when Europe really needed to prove that this is not only a fair weather union, too many initially refused to share their umbrella,” she told members of the European parliament in a sparsely-attended session in Brussels to vote through emergency measures..........EU leaders are increasingly worried they are losing “the battle of narratives”, after Russia and China rushed to aid Italy, while European neighbours failed initially to respond to Rome’s calls for help. The EU’s chief diplomat, Josep Borrell, wrote earlier this week that there was “a struggle for influence through spinning” of “the politics of generosity”

 

On the second point in Bold.  Again you may be correct that those 2 organisations are so large that they can help others, but in regard of this trumpeted procurement process, all the EU are doing is trying to tie up supplies from around the world.  On top of this it has banned any export of medical supplies to countries outside of the EU which is tough if you are a struggling 3rd world country without the production capability.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-eu-limit-exports-medical-equipment/

 

The question I wanted answering was what has the Commision ordered.  The answer was, masks type 2 and 3, gloves, goggles, face-shields, surgical masks and overalls. The supplies of these will be available around 8th April.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_523

Probably not going to be much help to Italy & Spain by then.

 

In times like these people see what they think is a solution and jump on it, the more I read about this the more I see a group of nations with their own agendas. Just look at how much partner countries have helped Italy and Spain with equipment so far.

 

Quote from the FT

Meanwhile in Madrid, doctors and local authorities have been pleading with the central government for more equipment. “We need more supplies,” said Enrique Ruiz Escudero, the top medical official of the Madrid region, as he issued an “SOS” to central government. Ventilators are a key concern as local authorities in the capital city seek to triple intensive care beds in coming days. Hospital staff hold told the Spanish press that their regular suppliers do not have products in stock and have criticised Germany for imposing export controls — which Berlin has pledged to relax.

 

And I thought the EU was a free and open market between member states.......

 

This is difficult to write about without it being taken as political, my own thoughts are that it's about the procurement process and whether one player is better than another, which they clearly aren't.  It's likely that this ordering is just being used as a political football to kick between opposing teams.

 

As for gloves etc I am giving blood later today and have had and read the latest advice about attending. It's explained that gloves etc won't be used as it is better to clean hands etc  to avoid contamination.  

 

[Oldddudders]

This is surely politics with a small p. Governments everywhere watch the Italian horrors and know there will be political change there when this is all over. "Don't let this happen to us!" is the mantra driving decisions. 

[black and decker boy]

I don't see how we can know during the present stages of our crisis whether our government got it right or wrong. 

 

We seem to be ahead of others in commissioning the huge field hospitals, we may yet get the quanitity of new ventilators the NHS thinks it needs before the peak.

 

We will only truly know in a few months once past the worst and the actual infections & mortality can be analysed. Lets hope that the 3rd world doesn't yet go the way of Italy & America in terms of accelerated spread but with a death toll to match.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A sobering thought for the front line medical staff.

 

As of yesterday, 44 doctors have died as a result of Covid-19 in Lombardy alone.

 

 

 

.

[gordon s]

This could change a few things....

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-boris-johnson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-11964493

[chris p bacon]

You just beat me to it.

 

It does say 'Mild symptoms' 

[jjb1970]

Indeed, we do not know a lot. The true infection rate might never be known with any certainty and will probably be estimated via modelling. Without knowing the infection rate the case fatality rate also relies on modelling but that will almost certainly be way lower than the figures people are calculating based on things like known cases and known deaths in a country like Italy. Then even if looking at mortality, it depends on how cause of death is reported and also how many of the fatalities are accelerated cases that were already near the end of life? I have a friend whose wife is now very near the end (do not resuscitate order) for reasons nothing to do with COVID-19, however she was identified as having been infected this week. If she passes on, as an infected patient will her death be added to the COVID total? Most of the fatalities being recorded include the disclaimer that they had underlying medical conditions, but that could mean anything from a scenario like my friends wife who is now in palliative care as her body shuts down through to high blood pressure which in the normal course of events is entirely manageable.

[Fenman]

Just now, chris p bacon said:

You just beat me to it.

 

It does say 'Mild symptoms' 

So if we’re all in this together, how does he (with “mild symptoms”) have access to a test when the rest of us don’t?

 

Paul

[Ron Ron Ron]

31 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I don't see how we can know during the present stages of our crisis whether our government got it right or wrong. ......

Up until a couple of days ago, with only a few variations, the U.K. governments advice and actions have been incredibly similar to that of several European countries.

Many country’s have posted their advice to citizens and their emergency “rules”, online - in English.

 

The danger for any country and any government, after this has all died down, is misplaced judgement on what went wrong and in holding endless post Mortems on how things were run during the crisis.

The reality is that not everything can be managed perfectly, nor all problems arising dealt with in the best way possible. Mistakes will be made.

No government faced with dealing with the speed and unpredictability of a pandemic, could manage and navigate a nation through it with perfect precision and decision making.

I fear the U.K. will resort to type and embark on wave after wave of self-destructive introspection, public enquires and blame seeking.

 

 

.

[4630]

Never before have George Orwell's words had more resonance.

 

To slightly misquote, "All are entitled to have access to a test, but some have more access than others".

[Ron Ron Ron]

15 minutes ago, Fenman said:

So if we’re all in this together, how does he (with “mild symptoms”) have access to a test when the rest of us don’t?

 

 

4 minutes ago, 4630 said:

Never before have George Orwell's words had more resonance.

 

To slightly misquote, "All are entitled to have access to a test, but some have more access than others".

My immediate thought was that question would be raised (not just here).

As the captain of the ship, so to speak, I think there should be no doubt about prioritising the PM or any other people who are in critical roles.

 

Should we question why a hospital doctor might be prioritised over some anonymous member of the public, like you or I ?

 

 

.

[jjb1970]

It's a lot less discomforting than the situation we lived with in my youth where certain people were ear marked for space in nuclear shelters while the rest of us would take our chances with the explosions, radiation, fall out etc.

[Dave47549]

15 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

I was in took a diversion through Alum Rock and I was astonished at how many people were gathering together on the streets, mostly outside takeaways and some were spitting food put onto the pavement....

 

I used to live nearby. Post-work ale induced munchies lead to occasional pitstops in said takeaways.

 

 - Personal opinion, the action described above is perfectly understandable.... 

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

There can be a strange faithful fatalism about deeply religious people. "God willing" can be rendered in many languages and it often seems to be said with a sense of resignation.

If you’ve ever ridden in a Taxi in India with a “God Willing” driver.......it’s an experience never to be repeated, the sense of resignation when overtaking an already overtaking truck on a blind bend quickly evolves into a sense of very warm wetness as an opposing truck looms out of the near distance 

[boxbrownie]

35 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A sobering thought for the front line medical staff.

 

As of yesterday, 44 doctors have died as a result of Covid-19 in Lombardy alone.

 

 

 

.

And the first Doctor has now succumbed in England 

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

If you’ve ever ridden in a Taxi in India with a “God Willing” driver.......it’s an experience never to be repeated, the sense of resignation when overtaking an already overtaking truck on a blind bend quickly evolves into a sense of very warm wetness as an opposing truck looms out of the near distance 

Not much different in Egypt when overtaking grossly overloaded donkeys.

Some years back we were in Morocco and on dead straight road of more than ample width and little traffic, two cars had collided head on! (and at some speed)

[Oldddudders]

43 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

It does say 'Mild symptoms' 

But does Boris ever do anything by halves?

[raymw]

wrt the cold war, we were protected by sellotaping our windows, and hiding under the table.

[chris p bacon]

48 minutes ago, Fenman said:

So if we’re all in this together, how does he (with “mild symptoms”) have access to a test when the rest of us don’t?

 

Paul

 

38 minutes ago, 4630 said:

Never before have George Orwell's words had more resonance.

 

To slightly misquote, "All are entitled to have access to a test, but some have more access than others".

Without repeating Ron Ron Ron's reply.

 

Do you honestly think that the PM should not be tested when he is surrounded by advisers and others who are trying to manage this situation that have come into contact with those with it.

 Others in No10 were tested earlier this week after showing signs and have been isolated, there wasn't much mention at the time but it was obvious that the virus would likely work its way through ohers there.

 

There is at present only a limited number of tests that can be carried out per day. This is being increased daily but until such time as it is readily available tests must be targeted at those at risk or in contact with those already testing positive.

 

To suggest otherwise is political point scoring.

[Allegheny1600]

53 minutes ago, Fenman said:

So if we’re all in this together, how does he (with “mild symptoms”) have access to a test when the rest of us don’t?

 

Paul

Whether you like him or not, BJ is our Prime Minister and as such has to be at the top of the tree for such things.

Imagine the chaos if (god forbid) he succumbed? Similarly for the Queen and Prince of Wales.

Sure - there's a line of succession BUT the fallout from such a thing in the nations morale alone would be devastating.

Even as a person who would never vote for him, I'd say BJ is doing the decent thing through this - which is deferring to expert knowledge.