HS2

[Pete the Elaner]

43 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

The trackbed is (mercifully) still there, and most of it is in tunnels. Despite the nonsense about only Daventry freight services using the southern WCML to Felixstowe; I looked last night and there were a number of Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow freightliners still going that way to reach London Gateway.

 

Are all containers actually bound for Felixstowe?

There are large docks at Southampton, Dagenham, Tilbury & many other places. Surely many trains will be formed of containers for all these destinations then re-marshalled in London?

[wagonman]

46 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

They can afford to finish the GWML and MML, but those projects reached a critical point which is  'X miles from London' .  (Abandonment of the extension to Cardiff was one purely political exception which no MP dare consider). 

 

X is something of an enigmatic variable, but when an infrastructure project reaches it, Westminster suddenly loses interest in favour of other willy-waving vanity ideas which are closer to London.

 

I wonder what the value of X will be for HS2? 

 

 

 

How far is it to Crewe...?

[Mike Storey]

4 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

The French LGVs Nord and Sud Est both come out of Paris – also one of the most expensive cities in the world – but they manage to use existing infrastructure for the first stretch without seeming to compromise performance.

 

HS2 seems to be beset with legions of 'consultants' all competing to push up the costs...

 

 

 

The lack of new, or significantly altered, stations is a primary factor in the additional costs carried by HS2. But then, there was already vast surplus capacity at Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon, at the time the LGV's were built. They are paying for it now though, with the much delayed Gare du Nord re-building project - it has always been a terrible station to use and has become much worse over the years, as numbers have increased.

 

A truer comparison of costs would be with some of the new German lines, where new, city centre stations have become inevitable. The trouble is finding out what those costs are.

[APOLLO]

New multi use (HST (being planned) - state railway & mass rapid transit with new bus station underneath) at Bangkok

 

 

 

How did that Pendolino get there ? - that would be handy, Wigan North Western to Bangkok direct !!!!!!!!! --- 

 

Not just an artists dream either, work is cracking on.

 

 

 

If we Brits have lost anything it's our pride. We CAN build the best if we chose to do so and pull our fingers out.  It's all about leadership - both political and industrial. We seem to be lacking leadership in both departments. Boris ? - well, I honestly don't know - we will see. 

 

Brit15

 

 

[Mike Storey]

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Are all containers actually bound for Felixstowe?

There are large docks at Southampton, Dagenham, Tilbury & many other places. Surely many trains will be formed of containers for all these destinations then re-marshalled in London?

 

Container trains are not "re-marshalled" en route, anywhere. That is the whole point of time-sensitive operation.

[jonny777]

8 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Are all containers actually bound for Felixstowe?

There are large docks at Southampton, Dagenham, Tilbury & many other places. Surely many trains will be formed of containers for all these destinations then re-marshalled in London?

 

As far as I am aware, containers on Felixstowe-bound services are all going to Felixstowe.

 

Southampton and Tilbury bound containers have separate services. I have to admit that I haven't scoured the timetables that closely, but I haven't yet found any which currently get re-marshalled in London. 

 

(I am probably on a hiding to nothing with that last comment)

[Pete the Elaner]

10 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

New multi use (HST (being planned) - state railway & mass rapid transit with new bus station underneath) at Bangkok

 

 

If we Brits have lost anything it's our pride. We CAN build the best if we chose to do so and pull our fingers out.  It's all about leadership - both political and industrial. We seem to be lacking leadership in both departments. Boris ? - well, I honestly don't know - we will see. 

 

Bangkok is a good example. I have been there a few times & looked into its history.

When I was there last year, I travelled on the entire BTS & MRT, visiting the new Bang Sue Junction station (from the outside at least). They rate they are building things made me think of what London must have been like around 1890-1900.

That's just the point: Thailand desperately need the work now because they have planned, argued & cancelled for many years, much worse than the UK has ever done & Bangkok's internal transport is effectively about 120 years behind London. They have a lot of catching up to do.

[Pete the Elaner]

17 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

(I am probably on a hiding to nothing with that last comment)

All too easy on this forum. 

[jonny777]

44 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

If you didn’t watch Channel 5’s programme on the line on Sunday,I suggest you do so.Indeed the trackbed is still there and yes,your idea has been aired in the latter part of the last century as part of IIRC a so called strategic rail plan.Obviously,nothing came of it..

     The Peak District National Park is the first of its kind in the UK.Tourism,including those who flock daily on foot and on bikes to The Monsal Trail provides for many of its residents the only source of income from what is an isolated rural community.Other than that,it’s farming or a commute to Sheffield,Manchester or Derby daily.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure that paths could be found between freight services for an hourly Manchester to Derby passenger service. Just rebuild the stations on the route and re-open Bakewell and those who flock daily to the area can come by train; and continue to provide the isolated rural community with its only source of income other than farming. 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Old Oak Common - far to posh - The new station should be named after its actual location ---  London Wormwood Scrubs !!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Brit15

Oh dear oh dear - you northern folk just don't know London do you  

 

 

Old Oak Common depot, yard and carriage sidings were built on - wait for it .........................

 

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Ahmm, part of Old Oak Common and on some of the land of Old Oak Farm.   And just to add a bit of spice part of what is now called Wormwood Scrubs (known to some locally as Big Scrubs in order to distinguish it from Little Wormwood Scrubs which lies on the other (east) side of the West London Line) was once part of Old Oak Common - which was split in two when a certain Mr Brunel built a railway line across it. 

 

[APOLLO]

Well I've never been to Big Scrubs (honestly !!) only ever having seen it in several episodes of "The Sweeney" back in the 70's - along with the usual car chase round the old gas works and a fist fight after crashing the poor old Jag / Ford Granada / Transit van while a "Westerner" (Class 52) flew past sounding it's distinctive horn !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Anyway for all you West Lunnon fans here is Old Oak Common MPD - A "Long Good Friday" -- 27 March 1970 - nearly 50 years ago - proper locomotives !!! (we did Finsbury Park & Willesden also that day).

 

 

 

845 (without the D) looks quite spick & span.

 

 

5536 - Eastern Invader !!!!!

 

Brit15

Edited February 12, 2020 by APOLLO
typo

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, jonny777 said:

 

And the environmental mayhem caused by HS2 is somehow acceptable? 

 

You have an Olympic talent for conclusion jumping,don’t you?

[Ian Hargrave]

28 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

 

I'm sure that paths could be found between freight services for an hourly Manchester to Derby passenger service. Just rebuild the stations on the route and re-open Bakewell and those who flock daily to the area can come by train; and continue to provide the isolated rural community with its only source of income other than farming. 

 You miss the point..well,you don’t have local knowledge do you.The Monsal Trail from Bakewell to Taddington is the major tourist draw in the area.Unlike Haddon Hall and Chatsworth,it’s free to all and tourists contribute in a large way to maintaining local trade of all description.

 

Watch the programme,as suggested.

 

[caradoc]

12 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Rename Old Oak as 'West London International'

• Find a way to get a couple of Eurostar services start from there
• terminate all the IEP expresses there
• regular shuttles to Heathrow & Gatwick plus Crossrail
• Plus HS2

Sounds like a whole new district of London to build on and make money off.

 

Euston, that's old London.

 

Note: I am not being serious......or do I have a crystal ball

 

Personally, I would be quite happy with Old Oak Common as the major HS2 London station, because in over 40 years of adult rail travel, on every single journey I have made from or to Euston, Euston has been neither the origin or destination of my trip ! As long as there are fast, frequent onward connecting services, OOC could be just as convenient as Euston, and for some destinations, eg Liverpool St, Docklands, considerably more convenient. And as I have mentioned before my most regular WCML travel is Oxford/Glasgow; I look forward to making that trip via GWR to OOC and HS2 beyond, as a real alternative to going via Birmingham.

 

 

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

If we Brits have lost anything it's our pride. We CAN build the best if we chose to do so and pull our fingers out.  It's all about leadership - both political and industrial. We seem to be lacking leadership in both departments. Boris ? - well, I honestly don't know - we will see. 

 

Brit15

 

Like many, I have my reservations about our current Prime Minister, but IMHO one thing he has displayed is leadership, as well as positivity and optimism, quite a contrast to some others ! We will, however, have to wait and see what actually gets done.

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, jonny777 said:

 

As far as I am aware, containers on Felixstowe-bound services are all going to Felixstowe.

 

Southampton and Tilbury bound containers have separate services. I have to admit that I haven't scoured the timetables that closely, but I haven't yet found any which currently get re-marshalled in London. 

 

(I am probably on a hiding to nothing with that last comment)

Three decades ago, when maritime container traffic was a fraction of what it is today, trains did exchange portions at either Stratford or Temple Mills. Neither facilitiy  exists today.  Sometimes, services will exchange portions at Crewe, though how much of this is timetabled, and how much is due to commercial / operational needs on a real-time basis I wouldn't like to say.

[Zomboid]

20 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Like many, I have my reservations about our current Prime Minister, but IMHO one thing he has displayed is leadership, as well as positivity and optimism, quite a contrast to some others ! We will, however, have to wait and see what actually gets done.

 

Not wanting to get political, but one major advantage he has over the last couple of incumbents is a big enough majority to get relatively controversial stuff through parliament.

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Personally, I would be quite happy with Old Oak Common as the major HS2 London station, because in over 40 years of adult rail travel, on every single journey I have made from or to Euston, Euston has been neither the origin or destination of my trip ! As long as there are fast, frequent onward connecting services, OOC could be just as convenient as Euston, and for some destinations, eg Liverpool St, Docklands, considerably more convenient. And as I have mentioned before my most regular WCML travel is Oxford/Glasgow; I look forward to making that trip via GWR to OOC and HS2 beyond, as a real alternative to going via Birmingham.

 

 

Whenever I've arrived at Euston I've always ended up on an undergroud train to the east or west and sometimes south.

 

Using Crossrail from Old Oak to reach central London and then the LU network doesn't sound onerous, it may also be less claustrophobic than using the Euston undeground stations.

[Rugd1022]

13 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Old Oak Common - far to posh - The new station should be named after its actual location ---  London Wormwood Scrubs !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

''I'm doin' a five stretch in coach C for loitering with intent to by a train ticket, howzabout you...?'' 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 You miss the point..well,you don’t have local knowledge do you.The Monsal Trail from Bakewell to Taddington is the major tourist draw in the area.Unlike Haddon Hall and Chatsworth,it’s free to all and tourists contribute in a large way to maintaining local trade of all description.

 

Watch the programme,as suggested.

 

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly fully aware that, as a footpath/cycleway, the old railway is in itself a tourism draw. Indeed, it is on my bucket list of things to do.But it's a bit over-engineered for that purpose.

 

It would make sense to reinstate the railway to bring the tourists there. Some of the route might be single track, leaving space for the footpath/cycleway. Where double track needed, it should not be that difficult or expensive to create a footpath/cycleway alongside.

 

We have a parallel situation in Bristol/South Gloucs where the mayor proposes an underground railway when a perfectly good railway alignment already exists. Much cheaper and better to divert the cycleway.

[Ian Hargrave]

What goes against that is that the Peak District has National Park status.Believe me,the trail is a tourist magnet in itself.....and you wouldn’t think it in any way over engineered on a busy day with both cyclists and walkers competing for space in both directions 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
additional text

[Zomboid]

How much tourist appeal would be lost by having the footpath/ cycleway adjacent to a railway with frequent freightliners passing at relatively high speed. Pretty much all of it would be my guess.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

The French LGVs Nord and Sud Est both come out of Paris – also one of the most expensive cities in the world – but they manage to use existing infrastructure for the first stretch without seeming to compromise performance.

And if you saw how much work has been done on LGV Sud Est in particular within the environs of Paris you'd be taking a rather different view I expect.  LGV Nord is rather different although there has been capacity expansion beyond Gare Du Nord plus the considerable amount of work done at the station itself in order to extend platforms.  Don't forget also that the Gare do Niord and Gare du Lyon have both gradually grown sideways and length ways over the years and the land take beyond their facades has gradually increased, 1950s photos of the Gare Du Nord show a much smaller station occupying a smaller area.

 

In comparison the footprint of most major stations in Britain's large cities has not increased.  In some cases use has changed which has allowed extra platforms and track but then only marginally.  The only way to expand Euston was to go either over, or under, or sideways and the latter is undoubtedly the cheapest.  On the other hand Birmingham New St is already full to overflowing so again the choice would be under or over (you can obviously forget the latter!) or make the best of a largely disused site elsewhere in the city but which still offers some connectivity - maybe not ideal but at least it won't cost so much as the alternative.

 

But once you are beyond both the Paris termini but still in the wider urban area the land take, what of it there is, has been on former railway land and in relatively low quality areas and the costs of planning etc are considerably lower in France than in Britain.  Plus none of the LGV lines have had to put up with, and suffer the massive cost increases which have led to substantial sections of HS2 being unnecessarily forced into tunnel - even where speeds will be relatively low and on existing railway infrastructure.  It would be interesting to separate out the additional cost elements of the unnecessary tunnelling and the rate at which they have inflated since they were first added to the project - nobody seems to have bothered about that.

 

Equally the overall costs of planning debates and compulsory purchase has had an impact way beyond London where on all the French LGVs domestic and business property purchase outside the large cities has in comparison been minimal.  Take a trip on any one of them and you can see that the impact on domestic properties is not much at all - France has a lot more room in it than England.

 

Now as far as compromising performance is concerned I'm afraid that you really don't know what you are talking about.  LGV Nord makes use of existing/rearranged infrastructure as far as Belle Gonesse, 16 kms from Gare du Nord.  and over that stretch conventional signalling is used and speeds are constrained by both line capacity and in one or two places track geometry.   The difference is noticeable once you have gone through the changeover at Belle Gonesse because it is followed by rapid acceleration up to LGV maximum speed.

 

Coming out of Euston the equivalent distance would take up to Kenton or thereabouts, probably the former GCR overbridge.  But you would then face one very simple problem - the track capacity does not exist, especially when you get to the north end of the Willesden complex.  So maybe you could do what has had to be done with LGV Sud Est and bring the start of separate higher speed infrastructure in closer to the terminus, and in London knock down dozens of houses simply to get the land footprint needed.  Which takes you to the precise reason why it was decided to build HS2 instead of adding extra running lines to the WCML - it's better way of spending the money and in fact spending less money.

[scottystitch]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Well I've never been to Big Scrubs (honestly !!) only ever having seen it in several episodes of "The Sweeney" back in the 70's - along with the usual car chase round the old gas works and a fist fight after crashing the poor old Jag / Ford Granada / Transit van while a "Westerner" (Class 52) flew past sounding it's distinctive horn !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Anyway for all you West Lunnon fans here is Old Oak Common MPD - A "Long Good Friday" -- 27 March 1970 - nearly 50 years ago - proper locomotives !!! (we did Finsbury Park & Willesden also that day).

 

 

 

845 (without the D) looks quite spick & span.

 

 

5536 - Eastern Invader !!!!!

 

Brit15

 

Smashing stuff!!

 

Thanks for posting

 

Best

Scott.

[pete_mcfarlane]

55 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Not wanting to get political, but one major advantage he has over the last couple of incumbents is a big enough majority to get relatively controversial stuff through parliament.

I'd agree with that comment on his majority, although I'm not sure how controversial HS2 actually is.

 

Its opponents make a lot of noise, there are some genuine concerns over cost overruns, and some of the newspapers would have you believe the scheme is going to be a disaster (in the same way that everything is going to be a disaster, assuming we don't die of <insert latest disease> first). But beyond that it seems to have a high level of support among MPs from all main parties. 

 

It's not controversial in the same way that the Poll Tax or Brexit were.