HS2

[class26]

27 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

There's pros and cons to having uneven length portions of course, but nothing which hasn't been dealt with elsewhere in the world.

 

As soon as the captive trains are introduced the train fleet will be non-homogeneous, so that issue is going to have to be dealt with either way.

 

I have just sent a reply to the editor of the Spectator correcting many of the misleading assertions in the article. I hope it is published but I suspect not.

Maybe is a few more send in replies it might stir them into printing one ?

Here is the address -

 

letters@spectator.co.uk

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Rebuilding the GCR would probably be more expensive than HS2, require more properties to be demolished, not serve Birmingham, not free up any capacity at the London end of any route and not offer any improvements to journey times.

 

But other than that it's a great idea.

 

There's an awful lot of the Dunning-Kruger effect going on with the people who come up with these alternative 'proposals' - "clever little me has come up with a much cheaper option that the massive team of civil engineering specialists were clearly too stupid to think of". 

 

 

[Zomboid]

It's as though HS2 hasn't been on the drawing board for a long enough time to allow all the other options to be considered and ruled out as being a less good idea than the one which is being progressed.

 

"Reopen route X" is never as simple as all that, and usually imposes Victorian restrictions on 21st century infrastructure which need not be imposed. 21st century problems need 21st century solutions. Even the big relatively recent reopening of the borders railway has a section of completely new railway near Edinburgh because a simple reopening of that part was a less optimal solution than starting afresh.

[caradoc]

13 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

thought I might get that reaction.

 

So do you agree with the Spectator article, or with those, both here and in Rail magazine, who have explained why the idea is utterly impractical ?

 

[APOLLO]

Parts of the proposed "Golborne Spur" that connects the Manchester leg of HS2 to the WCML is planned to be built over the old GC branch to Wigan and the GC branch to St Helens, IF the "GC" newts and roosting bats and other two legged reptiles down in London agree !!

 

Shame the old GC route Leicester / Nottingham / Sheffield has been ruined by development over the years - it would have been just the job. Far too late now - ££££££££££££££

Typical British short sightedness. (as was shutting Woodhead).

 

Brit15

 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

it needs discussion. sometimes people are too close to the subject , and you need to stand back and look at it from further away. That is how it is done within IT and how good systems are developed. 

Fact is , noone wants HS2 in the north west.It won't help us at all,and even if it does it will be too late for us. Watched the report on TC+V , and part of plan is to build a huge tunnel unde Mabnchester Given the problems there have been with subsdece causd by old rivers old industrial workings then it loks very risky and expnsive. Money would b better spent on impriving local train services.

 

Quote

Shame the old GC route Leicester / Nottingham / Sheffield has been ruined by development over the years - it would have been just the job. Far too late now - ££££££££££££££

Typical British short sightedness. (as was shutting Woodhead).

It is never too late. Anything built on in past 50 years is not worth saving, or certainly not as important as what will be distoyed by building HS2 as planned.

Edited February 18, 2020 by rue_d_etropal

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, rue_d_etropal said:

 

Fact is , noone wants HS2 in the north west.It won't help us at all,and even if it does it will be too late for us.

Whose "fact" is that? More like an opinion.

There are lots of amenities which will never benefit me & have been paid for with public money. That doesn't mean they are a bad idea.

 

If you are saying it will be too late when it does arrive, then you mean it should have been started long ago?

Phase 2/3 (which takes it to Scotland) won't get built until phase 1 is completed. The more this is prolonged, the more the latter phases are delayed.

 

It will help in the NW. There are currently lots who do travel from Manchester to London by Pendolino, so HS2 will allow them to bypass the WCML leaving more availability on it for stopping services & freights. This is entirely its purpose.

[96701]

On 13/02/2020 at 17:42, phil-b259 said:

 

Look, it has been explained that putting all your eggs in one basket is a VERY BAD IDEA!

 

All it takes is a fire alarm to go off and suddenly all your passengers heading for London have to be taken all the way back to Birmingham!

 

Having two stations in the London area provides essential resilience as well as spreading the load across multiple onward transport modes.

 

The ONLY onward transportation from Old Oak is Crossrail and bering in mind the eventual aim of HS2 is to run 400m double deck trains that can accommodate around 900 people it doesn’t take a genius to realise that Crossrail on its own simply couldn’t cope with the resulting influx of passengers.

 

Moreover not everyone wants to go to the city or Canary Wharf when they get to London. Euston is close enough to Central London that some will be able to walk or take a short bus ride to their intended destination.

 

Euston also adds considerable north south connectivity via the Northern and Victoria lines. It is also within easy walking distance of the St Pancras / Kings Cross hub giving further connections for onward travellers.

 

Finally regular travellers base their entire lives around having train services to specific places. If you don’t believe me do some research into what happened when NR proposed terminating the Wimbledon loop Thameslink service at Blackfriars to double the frequency and reduce the number of capacity sapping flat Junction moves at the likes of Herne Hill. At present passengers using the WCML from Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, etc all end up at Euston and as the whole point of HS2 is to replicate the WCML, it’s entirely logical that HS2 trains should terminate as close to the current termi (Euston, Birmingham NS, Manchester Piccadilly) as is physically possible to get.

 

 

Just think of those going from South Wales to Yorkshire. No more Cross Country. IET to Old Oak Common, HS2 to Yorkshire. Bliss.

[Zomboid]

30 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Shame the old GC route Leicester / Nottingham / Sheffield has been ruined by development over the years - it would have been just the job.

No it wouldn't. It would help relieve the MML, but do next to nothing for the ECML or WCML, and once past Claydon the line is still in use and pretty busy, there's particularly no space at Marylebone or Paddington for the extra trains that it would take.

 

Frankly it wasn't a solution to a question anyone was asking in 1905, and it's not a solution now.

[Phil Parker]

37 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

it needs discussion. sometimes people are too close to the subject , and you need to stand back and look at it from further away.

 

What you mean is we should throw away all the work carried out in the past and start again. The problem HS2 is designed to solve won't have gone away so a solution still needs to be found. All this means is loads more money shovelled to lawyers and consultants. In 10 years time, the "new" plan will be presented and all the complains will start again in exactly the same form as they are now. And someone will undoubtedly suggest throwing that plan away and starting again.

 

Those demanding binning this plan won't have bothered doing a little research - even reading this thread from start to finish - otherwise old chestnuts like re-opening the GCR which have been explained away here, and doubtless in the original planning of HS2, wouldn't re-surface.

 

41 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

It is never too late. Anything built on in past 50 years is not worth saving, or certainly not as important as what will be distoyed by building HS2 as planned.

 

You are just trolling for attention now aren't you.

[Bernard Lamb]

I fear we are getting near to the dodgy comments that got the original thread locked.

I have nothing against a fair and open discussion, but would posters please read what has already been covered and not rehash what has been done to death.

It will save me the bother of having to scroll through it.

Bernard

[Mark Saunders]

I fear that this will run and run and is effect all over bar the shouting as no matter what the decision there are/will be those who know better!

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

it needs discussion. sometimes people are too close to the subject , and you need to stand back and look at it from further away. That is how it is done within IT and how good systems are developed. 

Fact is , noone wants HS2 in the north west.It won't help us at all,and even if it does it will be too late for us. Watched the report on TC+V , and part of plan is to build a huge tunnel unde Mabnchester Given the problems there have been with subsdece causd by old rivers old industrial workings then it loks very risky and expnsive. Money would b better spent on impriving local train services.

 

It is never too late. Anything built on in past 50 years is not worth saving, or certainly not as important as what will be distoyed by building HS2 as planned.

 

It has been discussed, discussed again and discussed yet again and the same answer keeps coming up

Why can't you accept that the Civil Engineers/Planners etc. that have come up with this scheme know more than you.

Quoting "facts" that are just your opinions doesn't help your argument at all.

 

"Anything built on in past 50 years is not worth saving"

Care to explain to those thousands that are going to be affected by your proposals why you think that amount of destruction is acceptable but less destruction elsewhere (HS2) isn't?

You are quite happy for someone to bulldoze complete housing estates and Industrial estates to re-instate what was Lame Duck when it opened, rather than build something that will actually do something real about capacity to the West Midlands., North West  And North East?

 

 

[Mark Saunders]

This link makes interesting reading and the attitude of the Prime Minister and the blame culture that exists!

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/johnsons-puts-his-jackboot-into-hs2-engineers?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral

[PhilH]

Thought I'd start a cheery poll on here...hands up those who will still be breathing when this thing opens...

[Mike Storey]

12 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

This link makes interesting reading and the attitude of the Prime Minister and the blame culture that exists!

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/johnsons-puts-his-jackboot-into-hs2-engineers?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral

 

Very informative article, but as they admit, Johnson had to play to the gallery to get this through without too much of a rebellion on his hands. Quite what the "new arrangements" will bring, having utilised almost entirely, the view of a previous chief of the scheme, we can only await with baited breath....

[melmerby]

28 minutes ago, PhilH said:

Thought I'd start a cheery poll on here...hands up those who will still be breathing when this thing opens...

You can count me out.

I'll be worm food before then.

[jamie92208]

47 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You can count me out.

I'll be worm food before then.

When HS2 was first announced, I did suggest to other members at our Model Railway Club that we should buy a dustbin and have our ashes placed there in due course so that they could be incorporated  into an embanknent or track bed when the line was finally built past Wakefield.

 

Jamie

Edited February 18, 2020 by jamie92208

[APOLLO]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

No it wouldn't. It would help relieve the MML, but do next to nothing for the ECML or WCML, and once past Claydon the line is still in use and pretty busy, there's particularly no space at Marylebone or Paddington for the extra trains that it would take.

 

Frankly it wasn't a solution to a question anyone was asking in 1905, and it's not a solution now.

 

It would have saved many tens of £Billions. New line (as proposed) London to Claydon, Branch to Birmingham, Claydon - Leicester - Nottingham - Sheffield & over Woodhead to Manchester - at a fraction of the cost.

 

Brit15

[Tricky-CRS]

28 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

It would have saved many tens of £Billions. New line (as proposed) London to Claydon, Branch to Birmingham, Claydon - Leicester - Nottingham - Sheffield & over Woodhead to Manchester - at a fraction of the cost.

 

Brit15

 

New tunnel through Woodhead would cost a fortune, hence why the bypass / new road / M67 has never been built. Thus dispit the terrible traffic driving daily between Manchester and Sheffield.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

New tunnel through Woodhead would cost a fortune, hence why the bypass / new road / M67 has never been built. Thus dispit the terrible traffic driving daily between Manchester and Sheffield.

 

Which is also the problem for any east-west rail routes that may be built. To get up to any reasonable speed, a lot of tunneling is involved.

[APOLLO]

Ah but the existing "new" Woodhead tunnel built in the 50's would have been fine. Again too late now the National Grid have cabled it.

 

 

I wonder if they will do to HS2 what they did to the GW (part) electrification ?   - Cut costs by having just do "fast bits" and "even faster bits". !!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

[caradoc]

5 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Shame the old GC route Leicester / Nottingham / Sheffield has been ruined by development over the years - it would have been just the job. Far too late now - ££££££££££££££

Typical British short sightedness. (as was shutting Woodhead).

 

Brit15

 

Short sightedness ? How many people were saying, in 1966, better keep this unnecessary, duplicate line (which in reality should never have been built) because in 50 years time small parts of it might be needed for a brand new high speed railway ?

 

 

5 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

It is never too late. Anything built on in past 50 years is not worth saving, or certainly not as important as what will be distoyed by building HS2 as planned.

 

I think those responsible for the Great Central Railway Loughborough and GCR North might disagree, as might the owners, retailers and shoppers of Nottingham, also their tram operator, and I would imagine the residents of the towns the GC passed through, eg Brackley, Rugby, Leicester, etc would not be overjoyed to have a high speed railway blasting through their communities either.

 

 

 

[APOLLO]

The two unused Standedge tunnels look to be in good nick - interesting video here

 

 

Anyway why do all the Yorkshiremen wish to escape "Gods own county" at over 100mph east to the Red Rose county !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

6 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Short sightedness ? How many people were saying, in 1966, better keep this unnecessary, duplicate line (which in reality should never have been built) because in 50 years time small parts of it might be needed for a brand new high speed railway ?

 

I think those responsible for the Great Central Railway Loughborough and GCR North might disagree, as might the owners, retailers and shoppers of Nottingham, also their tram operator, and I would imagine the residents of the towns the GC passed through, eg Brackley, Rugby, Leicester, etc would not be overjoyed to have a high speed railway blasting through their communities either.

 

Yes short sightedness to the nth degree. Just as the the GC was closing the Japanese were building their bullet trains, when Woodhead closed the French TGV was firmly established as their future - the French have not looked back, nor have the Japanese. The Chinese build HST's relentlessly. We are a  very crowded little island, with a history nasty & useless politicians (i.e. Marples back then who had vested interests in Motorway construction).

 

I live alongside the WCML north of Wigan. High (ish) speed trains "blasting" by - quite used to them. Bring the new trains on !!!

 

Brit15