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17 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

That's very insulting to all the highly skilled, dedicated and very professional railwaymen and women who keep our railways running in good and bad times. Many of them are members of this forum.  I'm afraid that comments like yours are what got the previous thread closed down. Please can we have a bit of respect on here.

 

Jamie

Very little respect is shown on here towards anyone who dares to criticise HS2! Quite the contrary, in fact. Getting a thread closed down is a symptom of intolerance and insecurity.

 

Are we to believe that everyone who works on or manages railways in the UK (including the Dept for Transport) is competent?  If that is true, the relentless series of bad news stories that our railways currently generates is very hard to explain. I'm sure that the highly skilled, dedicated and very professional railway workers on here can all think of colleagues and managers who are not quite such a boon to the industry. A little bit of realism on here would be useful.

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4 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Very little respect is shown on here towards anyone who dares to criticise HS2! Quite the contrary, in fact. Getting a thread closed down is a symptom of intolerance and insecurity.

 

Are we to believe that everyone who works on or manages railways in the UK (including the Dept for Transport) is competent?  If that is true, the relentless series of bad news stories that our railways currently generates is very hard to explain. I'm sure that the highly skilled, dedicated and very professional railway workers on here can all think of colleagues and managers who are not quite such a boon to the industry. A little bit of realism on here would be useful.

 

All in favour of respect. But you don't show much respect either to those that don't agree with you. You have made your mind up and willfully ignore factual remarks made by most of the contributors here.

As for "bad news" stories, they are a function of a press more bothered about selling papers than dealing with the truth. Most of the current problems on the railway are:

1) the result of meddling by politicians who know nothing and care less about the railways;

2) a massive increase in ridership on most lines over the last 25 years which should be seen as a "good news" story.

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23 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Very little respect is shown on here towards anyone who dares to criticise HS2! Quite the contrary, in fact. Getting a thread closed down is a symptom of intolerance and insecurity.

 

 

I would disagree; Anyone here is quite at liberty to express their view on HS2, and anyone else is equally free to question assertions made (on both sides of the argument). That is not disrespect, it is open and free debate.

 

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32 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

...Most of the current problems on the railway are:

1) the result of meddling by politicians who know nothing and care less about the railways;

2) a massive increase in ridership on most lines over the last 25 years which should be seen as a "good news" story.

Politicians are involved because they are the representatives of UK taxpayers, without whose financial input there wouldn't be a UK rail system, despite the fact that the vast majority of journeys made in the UK don't involve a train. So blaming them is rather like biting the hand that feeds you.

 

Blaming passengers for problems on the railways is similarly "interesting". I'm sure all those people crammed onto overcrowded trains don't feel like a good news story.

 

As for me showing disrespect, I have been the target of very personal comments in my short time on here. I haven't responded in kind. Are you sure you're not conflating disagreement with disrespect?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Pandora said:

The important subject  price of a ticket to travel on HS2  is still unanswered.  Will the operators price tickets for maximising profit   (high ticket prices, but low ridership), or for maximising passenger numbers (high ridership, low prices)?

 

That's a rather old-fashioned view. These days, railways and airlines have constantly evolving prices as tickets are booked . This enables to both maximise revenue and maximise ridership (in theory at least)

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54 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

As for "bad news" stories, they are a function of a press more bothered about selling papers than dealing with the truth. Most of the current problems on the railway are:

1) the result of meddling by politicians who know nothing and care less about the railways;

I'd suggest that a lot of problem 1 is driven by those bad news stories, and the need of the politicians to be seen to be doing something quickly. It's a brave politician who does a John Nott and tells the journalist they've talking rubbish. 

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5 hours ago, Pandora said:

Boris is a "Do-Er", a refreshing change after procrastinators such as May and Merkel,  it can be easier to  "Do  Then Seek  Foregiveness Afterwards"  than receive  permission in the first instance.

 

I was careful with my choice of words. Boris is definitely not a do-er. But he is good at getting other people to get things done and then turning up at the party for the opening. I don't mind that if it means that things get done.

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3 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I'd suggest that a lot of problem 1 is driven by those bad news stories, and the need of the politicians to be seen to be doing something quickly. It's a brave politician who does a John Nott and tells the journalist they've talking rubbish. 

 

I'm a bit of an idealist. I believe that people should not go into politics unless they are brave.

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1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

Very little respect is shown on here towards anyone who dares to criticise HS2! Quite the contrary, in fact. Getting a thread closed down is a symptom of intolerance and insecurity.

 

 

I should point out to you that this is a model railway forum. People who like and are interested in model railways also tend to view the real thing in the same light. Some of us are also directly affected. Getting a thread closed down is usually the action of trolls. Feel free to comment on various aspects of HS2, however the basic situation is that we need new and better rail connections in the UK and the decision to build them was taken several years ago. There never was a realistic chance that Boris or any other leader was ever going to change the decision.

 

Todays episode is a group of protesters claiming that test bores are putting supplies of drinking water at risk.

Bernard

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2 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

Very little respect is shown on here towards anyone who dares to criticise HS2! Quite the contrary, in fact.

 

Mainly because those who criticise never put forward workable alternatives!

 

HS2 didn't come about simply because a Politician or the construction industry said it must happen - HS2 came into being because study after study has shown that:-

 

(1) The WCML, and to a lesser extent the MML and ECML (plus parts of the cross country network) are FULL and have no ability to cope with the predicted demand for freight and passenger usage (as well as allowing time for stufv to be renewed / maintained*) in the coming decade.

 

(2) Upgrading the above main lines (more tracks, double deck compatible platforms, longer stations) would equal decades of misery for existing users (the NR CEO reckoned we are looking like 30 YEARS of Weekend closures of the WCML to get the same CAPACITY benefits as HS2 will provide for example).

 

Critics need to stop stick king their heads in the sand and IGNORING the vast amount of serious study that has gone on which PROVES that a massive uplift in capacity is needed and a new build is the optimum way of achieving that - just as building a brand new road is cheaper and far easier than these 'Smart Motorway' upgrades taking place on our roads. Acept that (or propose a well thought out strategy for reducing travel demand that can happen quickly without wrecking the UK economy) is all we are asking.

 

Rather than complaining from the sidelines, what critics should be doing is telling us why causing massive disruption to current users is so much better - or how they propose to restructure the economy QUICKLY to choke off the extra demand for travel - Note if the railway cannot cope with it then that simply means more congestion and pollution on the road network!

 

Now that is not to say the HS2 project is perfect - and things like the top speed, the behaviour of contractors or indeed the compensation process have all been cited as areas where HS2 as an organisation is falling short and requires taking to task - Indeed I have said before I encourage the likes of LMSForever to continue to report poor behaviour by contractors in his locality because its important that such things should be addressed by HS2 management. However NONE of those things have anything to do with the basic NEED for the project as a whole or indeed the alignment of the route which remains sound whatever the failings elsewhere.

 

 

* The more a rail is used the quicker it wears out and the grater the need for possessions to replace it - during which trains cannot run!

 

 

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As Andrew Stephenson has been named as the minister for HS2, wouldn't it the right time to rebrand the project?

He could call it drop the HS2 and call it 'Stephenson's Rocket'.

Oh, hang on, it is not all about speed really is it? So lets just name the first train to use it his rocket instead.....

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11 hours ago, Pandora said:

The important subject  price of a ticket to travel on HS2  is still unanswered.  Will the operators price tickets for maximising profit   (high ticket prices, but low ridership), or for maximising passenger numbers (high ridership, low prices)?

 

This is not a surprise - HS2 is many years away from opening and who knows what may have happened in the intervening years - particularly as the current fare system is regarded by most as being in need of  massive overhaul to tackle things like split ticketing being cheaper than a end to end fare or returns being only a tiny bit more expensive than singles, or season tickets not suiting the increasing numbers of folk who work part time /from home / in the 'gig' economy.

 

Asking for exact fare detail now is a bit like walking into a car dealer and demanding to know the price list for 2028!

 

Governments have previously said that fares on HS2 will be broadly in line with current ones with savers and cheap advance purchase options still available alongside walk on fares (subject to inflationary increases each year of course). Yes its likely that there will be a modest price premium for the HS2 leg - but the same principle applies to HS1 and even with that HS1 has built up a heathy amount of custom over the years from Kent passengers.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Pandora said:

My perspective is this:    ticket revenue is part of the business case and ticket revenue vs ridership is open to conflicting aims and ambitions.

 

 

No, it isn't.

 

The only direct values applied to the Business Case benefits are - journey time savings; crowding benefits; car user benefits. There are other credits from a wider impact on the economy, mainly in wealth creation (primarily jobs and agglomeration) and imperfect competition.

 

Ticket revenue would not necessarily directly flow to the government, if the standard franchise arrangement, or something like it, was used. What would flow to government, either via NR, or via some third party investors who might be persuaded to buy or lease the network (as per HS1), would be track access charges or some form of lease payment. None of that (as far as I can see) has been factored into the Business Case (apart from un-used land re-sale, station commercial development and some elements of discounted values, which all come off the final cost calculation), which is one of the criticisms.

 

It is the Track Access Charges which will ultimately determine the level of fares necessary to make train operation economic, or indeed, the number of trains it is viable to run. This is the danger of third party leasing, or a similar arrangement, which has been discovered by the French, albeit too late, with their LGV Atlantique, and is now being found with HS1, if the leasing company get their way with the new Access Charges settlement currently under negotiation.

 

So, no, your simplistic argument about fares is not simple.

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1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

The only direct values applied to the Business Case benefits are - journey time savings; crowding benefits; car user benefits. There are other credits from a wider impact on the economy, mainly in wealth creation (primarily jobs and agglomeration) and imperfect competition.

However, to produce the business case (as well as to plan the intended service and to specify the trains and design the infrastructure) one must have some idea of how many people are going to use it.  This is predicted by computer modelling which takes account of the tendency to travel and the speed and frequency but also the fare being charged for the new service as well as for alternative transport links that are expected to be available at the same time.  

 

Somewhere in the voluminous paperwork of the HS2 business case (but don't ask me where!) is a statement that fare levels are assumed to be broadly similar to the existing ones.  

 

Personally I believe HS2 should lead to a reduction in peak-time return fares, as these are the important ones for stimulating economic activity in the regions because they are used by business people travelling between regions and to/from London.  The high prices charged today are also at least partly the result of overcrowding, which should be much less when HS2 provides more capacity.  However I would seek to reduce the discount applied to season tickets, perhaps making existing ones valid only on classic services, to discourage any tendency for HS2 to make the Midlands and North simply a dormitory for London commuters.  

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Oh dear here we go again don't let this new thread be closed as with construction about to start when we who live along the route can put reports of progress on line.I still don't agree with the HS2  its going to happen so it will be interesting to see what happens when they start knocking buildings down and destroy habitats.A friend of mine has been on the receiving end of HS2Ltd  and is still waiting for payment for being kicked off the land he was using .Even his landagents could not get any asistance from HS2.This will have to change quickly if they want the public to change their minds about this line.Many people who use the wcml and cannot access the new route will not take kindly to find themselves on slow trains instead of through expresses .HS2 is yet another London concentric project  no matter what is said by people  in the north ,connectivity will mean that business people in the north will able  to be in their new offices in London quickly.I hope that the company are subjected to scrutiny about use of dubious consultants ,and general running of the company.Doubtless many will disagree with me that is their right but things are being done wrongly and we have not received information we can trust.

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3 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Oh dear here we go again don't let this new thread be closed as with construction about to start when we who live along the route can put reports of progress on line.I still don't agree with the HS2  its going to happen so it will be interesting to see what happens when they start knocking buildings down and destroy habitats.A friend of mine has been on the receiving end of HS2Ltd  and is still waiting for payment for being kicked off the land he was using .Even his landagents could not get any asistance from HS2.This will have to change quickly if they want the public to change their minds about this line.Many people who use the wcml and cannot access the new route will not take kindly to find themselves on slow trains instead of through expresses .HS2 is yet another London concentric project  no matter what is said by people  in the north ,connectivity will mean that business people in the north will able  to be in their new offices in London quickly.I hope that the company are subjected to scrutiny about use of dubious consultants ,and general running of the company.Doubtless many will disagree with me that is their right but things are being done wrongly and we have not received information we can trust.

 

Please continue to keep us updated - there is no excuse for bad project management or contractors not being managed correctly, be it HS2, Crossrail, the building of a new hospital or the refurbishment of Big Ben.

 

All I would ask is that is that your observations acknowledge the fundamental difference between the justification for doing something and the completely separate from the process of actually carrying out that action. Errors in the later do not invalidate the former.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I don't think we can blame lack of electrification progress on MML (& GWML) on HS2. Govt lost patience with electrification of GWML due to massive overruns on time and cost.

 

Not so. This is nothing to do with GWML other than the fact it ran near-criminally over budget for well-known reasons. 

When GRAYLING cancelled MML electrification north of Kettering it was stated that HS2 would provide a rapid N-S route instead. But it will be up to 15 years later. The East Midlands cities are the only major ones in England without an electric route to London. Even Norwich has that. Leicester may never have one. Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester will be much better served with two. It is not acceptable for our economy and connectivity.

 

David

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20 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

HS2 is yet another London concentric project  no matter what is said by people  in the north ,connectivity will mean that business people in the north will able  to be in their new offices in London quickly.

Building HS2 will do a lot of things but it won't in itself build a significant number of new offices in London, certainly not in the areas of greatest demand.  Office space is spectacularly expensive in the financial districts; I have said before on another thread that many large companies do NOT have a significant presence in London and do not wish to do so.  

I have previously worked for a FTSE250 company with about 6000 UK employees.  It's London office had a permanent staff of about six (and I think it's gone now); it was used a base for meetings before/after meetings with Government departments.  I also worked for a US defence company with a similar number of UK employees (but over 100,000 worldwide) which had no London office at all.  Companies are quite smart at how they spend their own money, they will employ the majority of their people well outside London if they can get the skills elsewhere at lower overall cost.

Also don't forget that HS2 at Old Oak Common will make easier access to something arguably almost as important as London: Heathrow Airport.  If people can get to/from an international flight and pretty quickly get to/from (e.g.) central Manchester by train instead of a shuttle flight, they will.  Currently rather a lot of people from the Midlands are driving to/from Heathrow via the M1/M40/M25/M4.

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40 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

........If people can get to/from an international flight and pretty quickly get to/from (e.g.) central Manchester by train instead of a shuttle flight, they will.  Currently rather a lot of people from the Midlands are driving to/from Heathrow via the M1/M40/M25/M4.


There’s a much reduced market in the north, for connecting through Heathrow these days.

As such, there’s a much smaller number of domestic shuttle flights between Heathrow and Manchester, than there were 10 or 15 years ago.

A very high percentage of air passengers flying from Manchester, the NW and much of the north of England are not travelling via Heathrow. Rather they are flying from Manchester either direct to their destinations, or via one of the many large overseas airport hubs.


For example, via the Gulf there are 3 A380 flights a day to Dubai, 3 flights a day to Doha and 2 a day to Abu Dhabi. All by big wide body aircraft mostly carrying people travelling to and from the Far East, SE Asia, the Indian sub-continent, the Indian Ocean islands, Australia & NZ etc. Not to mention similar daily services to Singapore and Hong Kong, which also provide a wide array of onward connections. Lots of direct flights to the USA, Canada and the Caribbean as well, plus direct flights to China (currently suspended for obvious reasons).


Similarly, Birmingham has a smaller number of direct flights to European and overseas hubs, e.g. Dubai, Amsterdam & Frankfurt., in addition to a growing range of European destinations.

 

With HS2 stations being built to serve both Manchester and Birmingham airports, there may be less dependency on Heathrow for parts of the country that are outside of the SE.

 

 

.

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1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

There’s a much reduced market in the north, for connecting through Heathrow these days ....

A very high percentage of air passengers flying from ... much of the north of England  are flying ... via one of the many large overseas airport hubs.

For example, via the Gulf ...to and from the Far East, SE Asia, the Indian sub-continent, the Indian Ocean islands, Australia & NZ etc.

Not to mention similar daily services to Singapore and Hong Kong, which also provide a wide array of onward connections. Lots of direct flights to the USA, Canada and the Caribbean as well, plus direct flights to China 

With HS2 stations being built to serve both Manchester and Birmingham airports, there may be less dependency on Heathrow for parts of the country that are outside of the SE.

That is very true of folk I know (including my one son still based here in the NE - working in the offshore Fossil fuel as well as Renewable Energy industries) 

 

i'd like this to put paid to Heathrow expansion, but I am not sure how efficacious these flows are in terms of carbon capture.

dh

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7 hours ago, Dava said:

 

Not so. This is nothing to do with GWML other than the fact it ran near-criminally over budget for well-known reasons. 

When GRAYLING cancelled MML electrification north of Kettering it was stated that HS2 would provide a rapid N-S route instead. But it will be up to 15 years later. The East Midlands cities are the only major ones in England without an electric route to London. Even Norwich has that. Leicester may never have one. Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester will be much better served with two. It is not acceptable for our economy and connectivity.

 

David

Would electrification of the MML have done much to accelerate journeys? It's a pretty slow main line as things stand.

 

I'm of the view that the MML needs to be fully electrified, but it needs more interventions than that to provide remotely competitive journey times when compared to today's ECML and WCML. I think if you set off from London at a given time, you'd be in Newcastle by the time the MML would get you to Sheffield. HS2 addresses Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield to London & Birmingham journey times, but I'm not sure what will happen as far as Leicester goes.

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1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Would electrification of the MML have done much to accelerate journeys? It's a pretty slow main line as things stand.

 

 

Its actually faster than you think.

 

NR have spent a LOT of money over the past decade on small scale upgrades which means that large chunks are now good for 125mph running.

 

What currently lets the route down is the way MML 'express' services have historically to perform the function of a regional operator between Bedford and Leicester resulting in more station calls than occurred on other InterCity routes  - though things should improve when the Corby electrics start and EMR can ditch most of their calls south of Kettering.

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28 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

NR have spent a LOT of money over the past decade on small scale upgrades which means that large chunks are now good for 125mph running

From a quick look through the sectional appendix, there are a fair few "HST 125" sections between Borehamwood and Leicester, but there's not much in the way of sustained 125, though sub 100 sections are relatively rare on the fast lines.

 

Leicester is only at milepost 99 though, so a non-stop time of 75-80 minutes ought to be achievable if line capacity allows. Which is probably good enough, really.

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