HS2

[Zomboid]

5 minutes ago, Phaeton said:

More efficient for whom? The customer, the owner, the shareholders, the local economy, we have to ask are all these commuter miles the only way to do it

Call centres are a total red herring here. They have mostly local staff who will drive a few miles or get local public transport (bus, tram).

 

And it's handling a phone call, yes they can be dotted around with a few staff each, but who benefits from that? Everyone involved benefits most from them being as efficient as possible.

 

Building a new freight route will be just as expensive, cause just as much disruption to the communities near the route, and deliver maybe 10% of the benefits of getting the fast trains off the main lines. That is why HS2 is proposed to be what it is.

[Northmoor]

13 minutes ago, Phaeton said:

Our first aim should be to get as many HGV's off the road, an integrated freight backbone would be the first step, so what if commuters are delayed, they do have a choice.

Which is exactly what HS2 will contribute to, by freeing up many new paths for freight on the WCML so that the capacity exists to take freight off the road.

Actually, it is private cars we need to get off the road.  An artic is at least carrying round up to 25 tonnes of goods (about twice the rig's weight).  Most cars weigh over a ton and many are carrying one person.  That's an enormous waste of road capacity.  What is unforgivable is that a significant proportion of car journeys are less than two miles - which is walk-able to anyone without a disability - and a very substantial proportion less than five miles, which is easily cycle-able.  

Like them or not, without modern road haulage and distribution, the countryside of the UK would have almost completely de-populated in the late 20th Century as the cost of living outside the cities would have become un-affordable except to the VERY wealthy.  The mileages incurred to supply such a tiny proportion of the population would have hugely inflated local grocery prices.  If you want to see this in practice, visit a local shop in the Western Isles of Scotland and consider that both fuel costs and ferries are actually subsidised in the Highlands and Islands to keep them to tolerable levels.  Without that, a tin of beans would cost about £1.50 in Stornoway.

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Phaeton said:

 

More efficient for whom? The customer, the owner, the shareholders, the local economy, we have to ask are all these commuter miles the only way to do it. 

 

I'm not a tree hugger, but we have to change the way we do things, every time a new road/bypass is built all it does is attract more traffic, it never solves the problem.

 

Our first aim should be to get as many HGV's off the road, an integrated freight backbone would be the first step, so what if commuters are delayed, they do have a choice.

Concentrating things like call centres in larger facilities is actually better from the point of view of transport, because more employees going to the same place makes it more likely that there will be a bus service.  If there are only a handful of employees they may have no choice other than driving, unless there are many other jobs in the same area, there is a passing bus route that primarily serves other places, or they live within walking/cycling distance,.  

[62613]

15 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Call centres in central London? Not a chance. They're where the office space and labour is cheap, not in London.

 

And twice weekly deliveries? The genie is well and truly out of the bottle on that one. Might have been ok years ago, but wouldn't wash now.

 

Neither of which have anything whatsoever to do with HS2, which so far as I can tell actually serves most of the major cities between London and Lancashire/ Yorkshire.

Possibly the only "major" city it won't serve is Stoke-on Trent. On your call centres in central London point; The call centre for the London Borough of Islington is located just up the road from me, in Ashton-under-Lyne, for all the reasons you mention.

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by 62613

[caradoc]

To support Edwin_m's point, if railway Control Offices can be classed as Call Centres (which is what they are, albeit of a very specialised kind, involving work which could never be done from home), these are already spread around the country. And being located in a city centre, as Network Rail Scotland/Scotrail's Control was, meant that a reasonable number of staff could get to work by public transport. Moving it away from the city centre, as happened in 2014, meant that much more travel had to be by car, increasing road congestion. Sorry, but I wasn't prepared to spend 2 hours getting home off the night shift by train when I could make the same journey by car in 25 minutes !

 

[corneliuslundie]

But the other thing we need to "break" is the false idea that everything happens in "the big city" so you must be there. Over the centuries that had caused the best of the rural young to head there, leaving rural areas impoverished. Dick Whittington was not alone. Even now there seems to be a fear that if you move away from the cities you will lose out in job opportunities compared with your colleagues there. Hence part of the difficulty in getting professionals such as doctors in rural areas. And while improved transport links such as HS2 (which I support) will improve travel to many major centres, it will also make it easier to get to London (and to return? Let's hope so.)

And this is not just a British problem. It happens all over the world.

My career started outside London with an organisation which had intentionally moved part of its operations. Within four years I was working in London and was there for the rest of my career. The job I did could have been done from anywhere, though it would inevitably have involved frequent travel to London, but none of the organisations ever made any attempt to decentralise - well no further than Balham in one case.

That is the mindset that needs changing. Governments in the past have done their best - such as Inland Revenue offices moved to various places. But sometimes when moves were attempted the staff simply didn't go. One example from many years ago is the National Chemical Laboratory which was with the NPL in Teddington.

So it is not just about transport links, communication facilities etc,. It is also about people.

Jonathan

[caradoc]

16 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But the other thing we need to "break" is the false idea that everything happens in "the big city" so you must be there. Over the centuries that had caused the best of the rural young to head there, leaving rural areas impoverished. Dick Whittington was not alone. Even now there seems to be a fear that if you move away from the cities you will lose out in job opportunities compared with your colleagues there. Hence part of the difficulty in getting professionals such as doctors in rural areas. And while improved transport links such as HS2 (which I support) will improve travel to many major centres, it will also make it easier to get to London (and to return? Let's hope so.)

...

Jonathan

 

Interesting points, but  MHO moving my place of work away from the 'big city' (as per my post above yours) was not in any way a good thing ! It meant that for the last two years of my career I had to lease a second car, because although the new location (Springburn) is not actually that far from the city centre (Glasgow) it has far poorer public transport links. Despite having staff travel facilities I ended up using the train for the late shift only, because I could not possibly get in in time for the early shift, and on the night shift the journey time was just ridiculous. So as Edwin_m has said, sometimes concentrating work in one location is beneficial.

 

 

[black and decker boy]

To hit our environmental targets, we need more use of public transport and less private car use. That would suggest more office / business around key transport hubs with much less car parking provision.

 

There is a trend here already. Reading has seen a huge investment in new high quality offices reflecting the vastly improved transport hub (Railair, bus & train interchange) and extension of Crossrail. There are now quite large inwards rail flows during the peaks alongside the more established commuters outward to London.

 

HS2 is sparking investment plans for Solihull, expanding the existing business & office space available, Manchester also has plans underway for Airport City.

[Mike Storey]

A bit more on Packham's crusade against HS2:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/27/chris-packham-begins-legal-case-to-halt-hs2-amid-coronavirus-crisis

 

It is very odd the way he is using anything and everything as an excuse to stop the project. For example, complaints about disturbing birds' nests, by recent works. Even the RSPB has said that works should not be done from April to September, so it is obvious why they would want to get the work finished before the end of March. Doh!

 

Hopefully, social distancing etc will delay the court hearings for some months.

[black and decker boy]

He has been prattling on that Coronavirus will harm wildlife whilst admitting it helps the environment 

 

plots have been lost me thinks

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

But the other thing we need to "break" is the false idea that everything happens in "the big city" so you must be there. Over the centuries that had caused the best of the rural young to head there, leaving rural areas impoverished.

 

Except is isn't a false idea(*) - for a variety of reasons business and people find it beneficial to be in cities and nobody is going to change that anytime soon.  That isn't to say the it has to be London, because it doesn't, but there does need to be a certain minimum population.

 

Hence the reason why the northern city politicians support HS2 - it benefits them in making their cities more attractive, it provides much needed (and overdue) infrastructure work in increasing station capacities that will allow future improvements to local transit options.

 

* - cities/large population areas offer a variety of feedback loops - more jobs, so more prospective employees, so more companies taking advantage of the trained employee pool, so more prospective employees, and on and on.  This is the reason for example why various types of companies group together (you can see something similar with restaurants - they tend to group together because while they are competing with each other, it becomes easier to get customers because the area becomes a "dining destination").

 

Now add in social changes - both adults in a marriage/relationship working - and it becomes even more difficult to move to a new job in a different place because you need to find 2 new jobs, not just one - and smaller locations may not have suitable employment for the partners training.  So people, out of both want and necessity, will pool in area that offer a large pool of job opportunities.   Then add in transit, as the younger generations frequently are apparently skipping the car and relying on public transit, something smaller locations often don't offer sufficiently.

 

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry, perhaps instead of "the big city" I should have said capital cities. What I was really saying that we need to break is the idea that only capital cities have opportunities. I therefore support the BBC moving to Salford and similar moves. There are still good public transport links, good facilities etc, but it is not London. I am not expecting the Treasury to move to mid Wales! Mind you, they might learn a thing or two about life. But it is very difficult to undo history,m which for example has seen several major universities develop in central London, requiring thousands of students to commute and live in very expensive areas. I really do not have any answers. If I did I would be Prime Minister - on second thoughts, no thanks.

Jonathan

Jonathan

[Phaeton]

I think it's likely to be mute discussion anyway, it is very likely it will get mothballed, there is only so much money to go around & the Government is currently digging so deep into it's reserves to fight the current virus there is not likely to be enough left over for vanity projects like this. We're (those that survive)  are all going to be paying for this current pandemic for many years.

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

 I therefore support the BBC moving to Salford and similar moves.

 

I don't.

It was purely a vanity project and nothing about sharing out TV production.

It resulted in the BBC centre in Birmingham losing productions to Salford. They were far from overloaded as it was. What's that got to do with moving out of London?

They even moved the Farming/Countryside productions out of Birmingham, which originated there when TV broadcasting started but had to expand in Bristol to take them. Joined up thinking? No way.

It means that the purpose built BBC centre in Birmingham is now much under used with a result that the BBC Midlands area (one of the largest) has the lowest spend of any region per license payer and one of the lowest overall.

Getting C4 to move out of London was supposed to address that by getting them to relocate to the Midlands but they went to Leeds instead.

[corneliuslundie]

Apologies. I was not aware of that. I had simply seen that a lot of radio programmes I listen to which used to emanate from London now come from Salford.

Anyway, that is not really central to the case for HS2. Let's hope that it encourages companies to move operations which do not need to be within a mile of Parliament to one of the other cities.

But as has been said we are all guessing what will happen when the current crisis is over.

Jonathan

[Phil Parker]

27 minutes ago, Phaeton said:

for vanity projects like this.

 

As many, many posts have explained on here, HS2 isn't a "vanity project".

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am not expecting the Treasury to move to mid Wales! Mind you, they might learn a thing or two about life.

 

In a similar vein, my father suggested that while the Houses of Parliament are closed for re-building, they should temporarily re-locate to Lichfield.  That way, when any of the MPs are talking bombastically about sending the troops (who are always other people's children, of course) into war zones, they can be encouraged to take a little walk round the National Memorial Arboretum just down the road.  Then we can see if they're still quite so keen afterwards. 

Off topic for HS2?  No, the route is very close by.......

Edited March 28, 2020 by Northmoor

[phil-b259]

46 minutes ago, Phaeton said:

I think it's likely to be mute discussion anyway, it is very likely it will get mothballed, there is only so much money to go around & the Government is currently digging so deep into it's reserves to fight the current virus there is not likely to be enough left over for vanity projects like this.

 

Unlikely.

 

As has been explained many, many times in a depressed economy state sponsored infrastructure construction activity is a very good way of stimulating the economy.

 

Start small and it works its way up - all those construction workers will require food for example - which means catering supplies and local shops in the areas where construction activity see their takings go up - and in turn purchase more supplies, which needs more people to facilitate their delivery etc.

 

This country has been wrecked by people obsessed by 'the movement of little green pieces of paper' to quote a phrase rather than actually doing things. Post the Covid-19 pandemic, the economy (and tax incomes) will be replenished by ACTIVITY not city speculators and HS2 construction has a part to play in that.

 

Granted it might be that later phases may be postponed slightly - but London - Lichfield (or Crewe if they can pass the necessary legislation quickly once things get back to normal) should go ahead at full speed.

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by phil-b259

[Mark Saunders]

34 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Unlikely.

 

 

This country has been wrecked by people obsessed by 'the movement of little green pieces of paper' to quote a phrase rather than actually doing things. Post the Covid-19 pandemic, the economy (and tax incomes) will be replenished by ACTIVITY not city speculators and HS2 construction has a part to play in that.

 

 

 

I never got the logic of closing almost all Britain’s coal industry to send the money abroad for an inferior product.

[lmsforever]

We will have to wait and see what the situation in the country is the NHS will take priority and all the money paid out to businesses and people will take a great deal from the reserves. Therefore 2021 is going to be a year of cost counting and working out howto get GB working, exports will take precedence and industries that provide for the needs of the population  A  ..great many people will have no experience of true austerity nearly akin to rationing and will find life a great deal harder.They will doubtless take to twitter and complain but the aftermath of this crisis will take a long time for the good time to come back.This not fiction it will be fact those of us who lived through the forties and early fifties find now very similar.Stay safe and indoors.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, lmsforever said:

We will have to wait and see what the situation in the country is the NHS will take priority and all the money paid out to businesses and people will take a great deal from the reserves. Therefore 2021 is going to be a year of cost counting and working out howto get GB working, exports will take precedence and industries that provide for the needs of the population  A  ..great many people will have no experience of true austerity nearly akin to rationing and will find life a great deal harder.They will doubtless take to twitter and complain but the aftermath of this crisis will take a long time for the good time to come back.This not fiction it will be fact those of us who lived through the forties and early fifties find now very similar.Stay safe and indoors.

 

That post shows something of a lack of understanding of economics. This situation has very little in common with the situation post WW2.

[lmsforever]

I have a good understanding of economics and with the money being spent it has to be repayed plus we do not know just how long industry is going to be locked down. It will not be business as usual because a good many companies could go under plus   services ie NHS  ,transport,etc will be counting the cost of what is happenning.So just think what could happen and prepare yourself.WW2 was just an example of how things were and has a little in common with now.

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

We will have to wait and see what the situation in the country is the NHS will take priority and all the money paid out to businesses and people will take a great deal from the reserves. Therefore 2021 is going to be a year of cost counting and working out howto get GB working, exports will take precedence and industries that provide for the needs of the population  A  ..great many people will have no experience of true austerity nearly akin to rationing and will find life a great deal harder.They will doubtless take to twitter and complain but the aftermath of this crisis will take a long time for the good time to come back.This not fiction it will be fact those of us who lived through the forties and early fifties find now very similar.Stay safe and indoors.

 

Yes and no.

 

Unlike the immediate post-way era there will be no rationing going on and no real shortage of goods.

 

Again, unlike the post war situation factories are ready to ramp up production as soon as travel restrictions are lifted (i.e. not bombed out) and with this pandemic, the people most affected are generally of the older generation compared to wartime deaths which generally impacted those of working age more.

 

The biggest fall out of this Pandemic is basically jobs and consumer spending. The sectors that have been hit hardest economically are the hospitality, travel and general (as opposed to groceries) retail sectors, they desperately need folk to be able to go out and spend money on stuff - yet an awful lot of folk will have been either made redundant or will have had weeks of low wages. Are they able to go out and start spending again or do they need time to rebuild the finances?

 

Thats before we get to the thorny problem of Brexit - only a fool would believe that this Pandemic won't have had an impact on whether we are ready to leave in December.

 

So yes there are challenges a plenty to overcome and things to be played out when the restrictions are eased, and we will be living with the fallout for some time to come. Whether that is more people working from home (and thus driving demand for larger houses so as to have a 'home office space' or more expensive air fares due to some airlines going under is unclear, but they are in practical terms very different from the challenges of the late 1940s / 1950s.

 

 

 

[caradoc]

6 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

A bit more on Packham's crusade against HS2:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/27/chris-packham-begins-legal-case-to-halt-hs2-amid-coronavirus-crisis

 

It is very odd the way he is using anything and everything as an excuse to stop the project. For example, complaints about disturbing birds' nests, by recent works. Even the RSPB has said that works should not be done from April to September, so it is obvious why they would want to get the work finished before the end of March. Doh!

 

Hopefully, social distancing etc will delay the court hearings for some months.

 

The final Packham quote in the Guardian article shows just how hysterical the anti-HS2 campaign has become; 'We must stop HS2 as soon as possible – for all life on Earth.' So it is not Global warming/climate change that threatens everything, everywhere on the planet, it is HS2 !

 

He also says 'HS2......is fundamentally incompatible with our necessary net zero obligations', which given that it will be an electric railway, and will reduce the use of far more polluting transport modes, is complete nonsense.

 

[Phaeton]

32 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yes and no.

 

Unlike the immediate post-way era there will be no rationing going on and no real shortage of goods.

 

Again, unlike the post war situation factories are ready to ramp up production as soon as travel restrictions are lifted (i.e. not bombed out) and with this pandemic, the people most affected are generally of the older generation compared to wartime deaths which generally impacted those of working age more.

 

 

 

We now live in a Post Thatcher era, there are no factories (or not the same volume) to ramp up, we sold the family silver, this is still a Tory Government in power, they will support their friends in the square mile, the only difference is they may have to fall in line behind the NHS, but they will open its doors to their friends as soon as they can

Edited March 28, 2020 by Phaeton