caradoc Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Zomboid said: It's probably not irrelevant to note that the WCML trains in Scotland aren't all that long. TPE being 4 or 5 cars, and the pendos are normally 9s (so not super short either). In my experience, while 9-car Pendos are not unknown in Scotland, 11-car sets are used at least as often, if not more. There is, AFAIK, one via Birmingham train formed by a single Voyager, but another formed of two sets. And the Manchester Airport/Scotland services, now hourly (alternating between Glasgow and Edinburgh) have been progressively increased from 3 cars to 4, and now 5 ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 The HS2 London-Scotland service is planned to be a double unit 400m long, running every 30min and splitting at Carlisle for Glasgow and Edinburgh. That's only a fairly modest uplift over an hourly London-Glasgow via WCML and 2TPH London-Edinburgh via ECML, all longer than a single 200m HS2 set (although the Pendolinos in particular probably have fewer seats). Both routes, but particularly the ECML, do of course carry non-London passengers for whom the HS2 service might not be suitable. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Edwin_m said: The HS2 London-Scotland service is planned to be a double unit 400m long, running every 30min and splitting at Carlisle for Glasgow and Edinburgh. That's only a fairly modest uplift over an hourly London-Glasgow via WCML and 2TPH London-Edinburgh via ECML, all longer than a single 200m HS2 set (although the Pendolinos in particular probably have fewer seats). Both routes, but particularly the ECML, do of course carry non-London passengers for whom the HS2 service might not be suitable. If 400m long trains are envisaged a hell of a lot of money will need to be spent at Wigan North Western station, as HS2 has stated it will be a hub station for the North West. https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/wigan/ https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575898/RFS14_Wigan_V2.pdf https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/hs2-put-wigan-map-see-12179505 https://www.wigantoday.net/news/transport/wigan-council-and-business-chiefs-welcome-hs2-go-ahead-not-everyone-happy-1430703 The existing platforms are 280m long approx (according to google maps). And there are sharpish (80mph) curves at both ends, with a junction to the south & high embankment on a curve to the north - 2 tracks also going north from here for a few miles to Euxton - a bit of a bottleneck now (well, pre Covid). https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5430963,-2.6320535,236m/data=!3m1!1e3 It's all a bit pie in the sky for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and we Wiganers want our pie on a plate - AND eat it !!) Brit15 Edited July 9, 2020 by APOLLO additional info added 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 From what little I can easily find, Wigan will be served by 200m HS2 trains. 1 tph London to Preston, and 1 tph Birmingham to Scotland. The London - Scotland trains (which may well be 400m) apparently won't call at Wigan. The proposed service pattern seems to have charge a lot through various iterations according to the internet, so what'll actually happen is another question... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, APOLLO said: If 400m long trains are envisaged a hell of a lot of money will need to be spent at Wigan North Western station, as HS2 has stated it will be a hub station for the North West. https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/wigan/ https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575898/RFS14_Wigan_V2.pdf https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/hs2-put-wigan-map-see-12179505 https://www.wigantoday.net/news/transport/wigan-council-and-business-chiefs-welcome-hs2-go-ahead-not-everyone-happy-1430703 The existing platforms are 280m long approx (according to google maps). And there are sharpish (80mph) curves at both ends, with a junction to the south & high embankment on a curve to the north - 2 tracks also going north from here for a few miles to Euxton - a bit of a bottleneck now (well, pre Covid). https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5430963,-2.6320535,236m/data=!3m1!1e3 It's all a bit pie in the sky for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and we Wiganers want our pie on a plate - AND eat it !!) Brit15 The current plan is for the 400m trains to call only at Crewe, Preston and Carlisle. Only relatively minor works are needed to provide 400m platforms at these stations. There will be other trains, probably hourly London-Preston and Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh alternating each hour, that will call at other stations including Wigan. As I mentioned in previous posts, there a indeed big issues about capacity for HS2 trains on double-track sections of the WCML. If it was down to me I would have continued the line past Wigan to join in the Coppull area and reinstated the former four-track from there to where they now start at Balshaw Lane. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Zomboid said: It's probably not irrelevant to note that the WCML trains in Scotland aren't all that long. TPE being 4 or 5 cars, and the pendos are normally 9s (so not super short either). XC don't go that way, but they're 4s and 5s too, and I think the longest trains ScotRail would normally run are 8 car. So longer trains would be the obvious level 1 answer to capacity in and around Scotland. Additional running lines (be they high speed or normal) would probably not be provided until the local and longer distance trains are regularly packed out 10-12 cars. Most Pendos are full length as the capacity is needed look on Railcam you will see that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 9, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2020 49 minutes ago, Lantavian said: My brain is not working at full speed today Are you saying that 11-car sets are used 50 per cent or more of the time? I've just been checking on Railcam 11 car just passed Thankerton on the way to Glasgow. Next two going north on WCML are both 11 car according to fleet numbers (3901XX) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 I live alongside the WCML just north of Wigan on the 2 track section. Most Pendolinos are 11 car sets. (but not all). It's not like the HS2 trains will be running anytime soon - and a whole host of things will happen before even authorization is approved. Let's see how Covid (and the eye watering costs involved) pan out in the next 12 months. If it's still a (medical) problem then all HS2 north of Birmingham bets are off I reckon for the foreseeable future. I wonder if they're fitting pantographs to the Pacers at Springs Branch - the new Inter City 125 !!!!!!! Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 I stand corrected regarding the 9 & 11 car trains between London & Glasgow, then. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Lantavian said: My brain is not working at full speed today Are you saying that 11-car sets are used 50 per cent or more of the time? I can't give a definitive answer as I do not have access to set diagrams, or systems to check actual formations, but from my experience 11-car sets are more common than 9-cars. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 A large Cement fabrication facility is now under construction at the south portal site. 3 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Aerial view of the West Hyde, South Portal construction site, on the east side of the M25. View looking towards the SE, with the M25 in the foreground (southbound direction to the right of the photo). 5 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) On 09/07/2020 at 15:05, APOLLO said: I live alongside the WCML just north of Wigan on the 2 track section. Most Pendolinos are 11 car sets. (but not all). It's not like the HS2 trains will be running anytime soon - and a whole host of things will happen before even authorization is approved. Let's see how Covid (and the eye watering costs involved) pan out in the next 12 months. If it's still a (medical) problem then all HS2 north of Birmingham bets are off I reckon for the foreseeable future. Brit15 I believe, from memory, that platform capacity at Glasgow Central will be a major constraint to further expansion, or lengthening of any more trains than are handled now. The final expansion, about 10 years ago, added two shorter, new platforms (12 and 13, I think). Only platforms 1 and 2 can handle 11 car Pendolino trains, and needed some surgery to allow even that, and these are already fully utilised. A high speed route to Scotland would need far more than just a new track, or track upgrade, if service intervals are to be enough to justify such a construction. As for post-Covid decisions, HS2 Phase 2a, i.e. North of Birmingham, has already been authorised. For Phase 2b, or whatever form it will now take, most work over the next five or more years, may well be in re-design, or design development if the existing scheme is maintained. So costs, compared to Phases 1 and 2a, will be significant, but marginal in comparison, in the near to medium term. Edited July 10, 2020 by Mike Storey 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said: Hi! Back again after all the Political stuff beyond my my pay grade Comment on that Curzon St terminal: there looks to be more retail at rail level and below than will exist in the rest of the City Centre (NB reported closure of the adjacent Flagship John Lewis Store) 2 Could anyone please update retired OFs like me exactly what of HS2 and HS2a is already a) ‘Let’ on the ground and b) what is definitely ‘Shovel Ready’ as opposed to still being subject to permissions etc. Edited July 10, 2020 by runs as required 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted July 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2020 The south portal site is interesting. It is covered extensively in the Modern railway article. Apparently it is also the fabrication and construction base for the long Colne Valley Viaduct IIRC. Good positioning with it's exit from the M25. Jamie 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Mike Storey said: I believe, from memory, that platform capacity at Glasgow Central will be a major constraint to further expansion, or lengthening of any more trains than are handled now. The final expansion, about 10 years ago, added two shorter, new platforms (12 and 13, I think). Only platforms 1 and 2 can handle 11 car Pendolino trains, and needed some surgery to allow even that, and these are already fully utilised. You are right about capacity being an issue at Glasgow Central, however Platforms 9, 10 and 11 can also handle long trains, although are rarely actually used for such. Occasionally when the sleeper services are seriously disrupted the Edinburgh & Glasgow train runs with the full set into Central - 16 coaches ! - and uses 9, 10 or 11. It does cause some disruption. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 10 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said: A large Cement fabrication facility is now under construction at the south portal site. HS2 into space looks like the boosters for an Apollo mission. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2020 48 minutes ago, lmsforever said: HS2 into space looks like the boosters for an Apollo mission. Aren't they the wrong way up? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 They have to be held that way up whilst you pour the fuel in. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, melmerby said: Aren't they the wrong way up? No. It's a new tunnelling technique. They're going to blast down into the ground to make the tunnels. I hear Freddy Flintoff has been hired as a driver. . 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-53366209 on the route 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 I know it's still some way into the future but I can't wait to see what power the construction trains will use! As we should remember, when many of Europe's HS lines were under construction, they tended to use recently retired diesel locos including many British type 3 and type 5s. Mind, with freight downturns here, it will probably be just class 66s, 59s if we're lucky - what do you guys think? John. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 5 hours ago, ess1uk said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-53366209 on the route Interesting article until I got to the end, why on a article about archaeology along the route did they need to end with a paragraph of the cost change. It almost comes across as lock at what has been found by this over cost over running project, instead of the insightful examination of the archaeology facts. BBC stop the criticism campaign and just write articles on the topic heading and leave the reader to do their own further research. The cost appraisal at the end was so basic it was biased and unrepresentative. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said: Interesting article until I got to the end, I agree - but why annoyed me was that I couldn't actually identify if it was on the HS2 route or just o one side if you followed up on the mention of Wellwick farm/manor . The tunnel portal site is well to the SE of Wendover and its existing station. Next large site going down is an over-bridge across a B road NW of Wellwick Farm. Pub Quiz Question: Where on the UK Motorway network do you pass by a stone circle actually within the motorway fenced area? Did you have to check by Googling? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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