HS2

[jamie92208]

I also get annoyed by various things circulating on antisocial media that keep saying that £110 billion has been spent on it. That us as I understand  it thd worst case scenario total cost including rolling stock. I think that about £12 billion has been spent so farcsnd the expenditure pervyear can't be more than £10 billion and probably quite a lot less.  It's just lazy sound bite journalism in most cases, or trying to further a personal agenda.

 

Jamie

[ardbealach]

What I don't understand in the HS2 costings is the actual cost of it all.  If I am buying a model railway it is a one off payment out out of my savings, or my taxed PAYE income.  There is no financial return to me in the purchase. 

 

But surely on HS2, whatever the capital cost, there is a financial return to HMG?  The capital cost can be identified in the costs of labour / materials / land purchase / professional fees and the like in its construction.  But all these elements are involved in the taxation system.  In other words, surely the government and HMRC will get back VAT, National Insurance, Corporation Tax etc etc and even the income tax of everyone employed in the various contracts?  

 

Are all these tax 'benefits' costed into the advised out turn figure?  Or is it just the construction cost that is being constantly repeated? (AM)

[Zomboid]

The cost is whatever is being spent, rather than including any attempt at quantifying the benefits. (That will obviously have been done as part of the "should we do this?" exercise).

[corneliuslundie]

In answer to ardbeleach's question, I very much suspect that the figures quoted are gross construction costs and do not take account of any money returning to the government in taxes etc. This is separate from the financial benefits once the line is running.

Trying to work out the village in England - the opposite of Knighton which is in Wales with its station in England. A nice quiz question.

Jonathan

[Edwin_m]

Most of the construction cost will find its way back into the British economy. The main exception would be the imported items, which even if they make up the majority of the "railway" hardware will be a smaller part of the overall project once the costly civils are included.  Also any foreign workers employed may send/take part of their wages home, but would still have living costs spent locally. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, runs as required said:

 

So going back to the original post about the archeologist's "iron age murder victim" - I've yet to find any  archeologist feeding details of 'finds' to reporters, to be wildly in favour of "development" of any kind: be it a new line of rails - or the disabled parking on the site of a demolished tithe barn for the church ( Grade I listed) the other side of the boundary wall to our house.

At least much derided "newt counters" are dealing with live newts - and the yet unborn spawned  

 

Archeologists must be the ones in favour of such developments as it is keeping a number of such in gainful employment during and before the initial construction phase!

[jamie92208]

Interesting mention of Packham.  I was involved in a zoom meeting at the weekend and one of the other participants was stating that he is due to appear as an expert witness for both Packham and the lady objecting to the tunnels in Camden.  Someone must have a lot of other peoples money to splash around. However after reading the judges remarks about the quality of evidence in Packham's last appearance I don't think the project is going to be stopped.

 

Jamie

Edited July 13, 2020 by jamie92208

[jamie92208]

36 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

Packham is the Jamie Oliver of environmentalists.

 

At least Oliver can cook.

 

Jamie

[pete_mcfarlane]

6 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Interesting mention of Packham.  I was involved in a zoom meeting at the weekend and one of the other participants was stating that he is due to appear as an expert witness for both Packham and the lady objecting to the tunnels in Camden.  Someone must have a lot of other peoples money to splash around. 

 

Jamie

As we've said before on here, this seems to be a problem with these crowdfunded legal challenges. He's already raised the cash, so can ahead with the challenge (and endless appeals) even if he's not got a hope in hell of succeeding.

 

11 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Archeologists must be the ones in favour of such developments as it is keeping a number of such in gainful employment during and before the initial construction phase!

 

My understanding is that a good proportion of professional archaeologists are reliant on these large construction schemes for their employment. The amount of archaeology found as a by-product of construction schemes must be enormous - it's a far cry from the days when Victorian railways used to dig cuttings through iron age burial mounds, and such nonsense. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

The outcome of Packham’s legal proceedings isn’t going to stop the “anti-brigade”.

 

Have a read of this clap trap.....

 

https://theecologist.org/2020/jul/09/struggle-stop-hs2
 

 

 

.

[pete_mcfarlane]

40 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The outcome of Packham’s legal proceedings isn’t going to stop the “anti-brigade”.

 

Have a read of this clap trap.....

 

https://theecologist.org/2020/jul/09/struggle-stop-hs2.

 

You can tell their grasp of reality from the tag line 'HS2 will shorten commuter trips from London to cities like Birmingham and Manchester'. So HS2 is there for the people who live in London and want to commute to Manchester. 

 

(* mind you, they could be thinking of some BBC media luvvie types who've been forced to relocate up to Salford, but haven't yet fully committed. Possibly that's their only exposure to people from up North)

 

[DK123GWR]

43 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The outcome of Packham’s legal proceedings isn’t going to stop the “anti-brigade”.

 

Have a read of this clap trap.....

 

https://theecologist.org/2020/jul/09/struggle-stop-hs2
 

 

 

.

"There are so many massive reasons to oppose it: the ecological devastation that building the line is wreaking; the vast slug of carbon that is going into the atmosphere from its construction, and that it is planned to run mainly on fossil power."

 

I may be wrong, but I would be willing to put money on the fact that the author, or at least many of their supporters, are also opposed to using nuclear power. Some of them are probably opposed to wind as well. I want to drop fossil fuels as soon as possible but it becomes very hard when so-called environmentalists reject every practical alternative, often with little or no scientific justification.

[billbedford]

10 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

I may be wrong, but I would be willing to put money on the fact that the author, or at least many of their supporters, are also opposed to using nuclear power. Some of them are probably opposed to wind as well. I want to drop fossil fuels as soon as possible but it becomes very hard when so-called environmentalists reject every practical alternative, often with little or no scientific justification.

 

Yep, he's from the Political Wing of the Sealed Knot Society - dedicated to talking this country's back to life as it was in the 17th century. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by billbedford

[caradoc]

Two things stood out for me from The Ecologist diatribe;

 

Once again the capacity issue is completely ignored.

'All this has been sacrificed for the sake of knocking half an hour off the journey from Birmingham to London'

 

And the author of the article;

'Professor Rupert Read is a political liaison for Extinction Rebellion'

 

Enough said !

[Trog]

Why do so many of these eco-twits have such an obsession with reopening the Great Central?

[DK123GWR]

3 minutes ago, Trog said:

Why do so many of these eco-twits have such an obsession with reopening the Great Central?

It appears a viable alternative to people who know very little about rail travel, and appeals to older people who want to 'reverse Beaching' and go back to 'the good old days'.

[black and decker boy]

14 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Interesting mention of Packham.  I was involved in a zoom meeting at the weekend and one of the other participants was stating that he is due to appear as an expert witness for both Packham and the lady objecting to the tunnels in Camden.  Someone must have a lot of other peoples money to splash around. However after reading the judges remarks about the quality of evidence in Packham's last appearance I don't think the project is going to be stopped.

 

Jamie

Probably sums up the opposition if an expert witness can appear on two completely different case types with no obvious similarity beyond the abbreviation: HS2

[jamie92208]

10 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Probably sums up the opposition if an expert witness can appear on two completely different case types with no obvious similarity beyond the abbreviation: HS2

I would agree. Two sets of fees for him though.

 

Jamie

[Mike Storey]

On 13/07/2020 at 15:47, Ron Ron Ron said:

The outcome of Packham’s legal proceedings isn’t going to stop the “anti-brigade”.

 

Have a read of this clap trap.....

 

https://theecologist.org/2020/jul/09/struggle-stop-hs2
 

 

 

.

 

Also note the headline above the article - "The Post-Industrial World". I don't know about the 17th century - this sounds more like the Stone Age.

[RJS1977]

5 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Also note the headline above the article - "The Post-Industrial World". I don't know about the 17th century - this sounds more like the Stone Age.

 

Perhaps this will satisfy them... https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=flintstones+train&&view=detail&mid=112C9DEA16E561895BD9112C9DEA16E561895BD9&rvsmid=7BE3CD2966D8C3ABC58A7BE3CD2966D8C3ABC58A&FORM=VDQVAP

 

[lmsforever]

The GC would never have provided an alternative to HS2  but it could have provided an excellent regional service in todays climate of services.A station in Nottingham could have been provided in the basement of the shopping centre but the council could not be bothered in thinking out of the box.Sadly the passenger need for the line never materialised closure was a necesary evil.The real no go is that the route that HS2 is following is the best for todays needs and the GC offers no alternative.As an enthusiast the journey to Nottingham was a real draw it was just like going back to the 1900 ,s in alignment etc.I did it once from Aylesbury and the staff at Nottingham looked so depressed closure must have been a release . Now the present much activity around Aylesbury on all sitets dont see many staff but can see signs of thier activity.How long before we see earth moving ?

[Edwin_m]

A station underneath the Victoria Centre would have been a solution looking for a problem, as everywhere significant the GC served was also on the Midland.  If the Midland network had been closed instead then there would have been many places including Nottingham with a much poorer range of rail links.  

 

There might have been a case to retain a link between the East Midlands and Oxfordshire, but that could have been done by keeping the Bletchley-Oxford route that's now being reopened. 

[Zomboid]

It's probably fair to say that the country hasn't truly needed the MSLR's London extension at any point since it was built until today. And as had been said many times, if it were still there, or if it were rebuilt, it wouldn't solve any of the problems that HS2 is designed to.

[Legend]

Does no one else thank that Covid has dramatically changed the requirement for trains and indeed any form of  travel in the Country?

 

I have always been a train enthusiast and have  supported  investment in the railways .  However I think the effect of Covid is quite dramatic . This may not be (I still hope a cure will be found) a temporary state of affairs but rather a radical change which will affect how people live their lives . I do think the world has changed.

 

- people and employers have realised they can work from home and indeed could be more productive . Dramatically reducing commuting or travelling within the country for business meetings

-the need to socially distance makes public transport inherently more risky in terms of infection than the cocoon which is your motor car . Might not you be more tempted to drive on holiday/ for business rather than take train?

- people have been buying on line which is a challenge for the High Street . The need to wear masks I suspect will further make people reluctant to travel into big cities for shopping or recreational uses . I used to love going into Glasgow for drinks and a meal , but I cant imagine the atmosphere will be the same having to keep at least 1m apart in bars / restaurants , so I think I'll stay with carry outs for a while . But again this reduces the need for public transport

- mass gatherings like the Edinburgh festival that generate demand for train travel will surely be reduced/ restricted until cure found.

 

So with all the above . Hasn't a massive amount of capacity just been put back into the system . Do we really need HS2 or can the WCML cope with the sudden drop in demand . Shouldn't we perhaps pause to see which way this horrid virus goes . If it repeats each winter , I can see people being very reluctant to use public transport at all.  It might be we need investment in transport infrastructure of HS2 proportions  but it could be radically different from just 5 months ago.