HS2

[lmsforever]

It certainly will be interesting to see just what the trains on HS2 will be like ,given that the current problems will be a thing of the past and not a regular recurence traffic will be high.The configuration of passenger accomodation will have to be laid out so as to justify the high fares that will probably have to be charged.Luxury will help this but what will the employment and monetary situation be like ,given that we could be in recession for a good few years and that the recovery might still be ongoing.But lets hope that the economy will be good and the passengers flock to high speed and make the expendature worth while.Never thought I would be saying this but we do need better communications.

[Edwin_m]

59 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

It certainly will be interesting to see just what the trains on HS2 will be like ,given that the current problems will be a thing of the past and not a regular recurence traffic will be high.The configuration of passenger accomodation will have to be laid out so as to justify the high fares that will probably have to be charged.Luxury will help this but what will the employment and monetary situation be like ,given that we could be in recession for a good few years and that the recovery might still be ongoing.But lets hope that the economy will be good and the passengers flock to high speed and make the expendature worth while.Never thought I would be saying this but we do need better communications.

If high fares are charged then many people will just stay on the existing routes and the capacity of HS2 will be wasted.  The business cases assume fares are set at existing levels (allowing for inflation), although personally I'd like to see less discount for seasons and lower peak time fares to encourage one-off business journeys rather than commuting.  The government isn't intending to make a financial return on HS2, as that return takes the form of the benefits to the economy in general identified in the business case.

[Zomboid]

High capacity and comfort are not necessarily opponents of one another.

 

The trains they use on the Shinkansen manage both pretty effectively, for example.

[Mike Storey]

I am sorry. I do not understand why there is discussion about using 20 year old trains, let alone 40 year old trains, on a brand new railway, where the procurement for the new trains is already in progress, and with, surprisingly, ample time for delivery?????

 

The discussion about ECML operation at c.140 mph, given the ongoing installation of ERTMS, is pretty academic (as regards HS2) as this has to be made to work on a mixed traffic railway, which is the greatest single challenge. HS2 does not face that challenge, and the tech for running at over 200 mph already exists. The big question regards the economics of the greatest speed possible, versus other options. Perhaps we should restrict our discussion to that, and divert our interest in the speed potential of other routes, to other threads. Please.

 

Otherwise, we face yet another re-run of the arguments on the old thread, which after multiple pages, led nowhere. Well, nowhere as in it being shut down.

[melmerby]

I suspect the trains will be either based on a Hitachi AT400 or a Siemens Velaro as both would suit a 200mph + railway.

I can't see the Chinese getting their noses in anytime soon, with the ongoing politics.

[simon b]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I suspect the trains will be either based on a Hitachi AT400 or a Siemens Velaro as both would suit a 200mph + railway.

I can't see the Chinese getting their noses in anytime soon, with the ongoing politics.

Looking at the concept pics for the AT400, it is certainly a sleek looking design. For some reason the front of the Velaro sets in use on eurostar still looks odd to me.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I suspect the trains will be either based on a Hitachi AT400 or a Siemens Velaro as both would suit a 200mph + railway.

I can't see the Chinese getting their noses in anytime soon, with the ongoing politics.

 

The Chinese are not in the running.

The bidding process for the first batch of trains (classic compatible fleet) is already well advanced.

The bids closed in June last year and the winning bid was originally due to be announced this spring, just gone, but something or other has happened (can't imagine what ????) and delayed the completion of the selection process.

Despite the interruption, the final result could be announced soon, or later this year and the trains should be ready ahead of the line being opened.

 

Hitachi were well placed with the AT400 and a ready made assembly facility in the UK (political kudos), but they've gone into the competition in collaboration with Bombardier Transportation, so it would be interesting to know how much of their joint bid is based on the AT400.

Regardless, there are 5 designs on the table.

 

The 5 bidders, or bidding consortia, are....

 

Alstom

Bombardier-Hitachi

CAF

Siemens Mobility

Talgo

 

.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Artist's impression of the Bombardier-Hitachi bid.

I've no idea how close, or how fanciful this is.

 

 

 

 

 

The Talgo Avril

 

 

 

 

Alstom

 

 

 

 

Siemens

 

 

 

CAF Oaris

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[lmsforever]

Think the Talgo looks the best clean unfussy gives a hint of speed when standing in platform the others look clunky and the French a non starter.But its the interior that matters and lets hope the seats are comfortable not specified by a civil servant !

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Euston Station construction work underway....

 

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, simon b said:

 

Does that mean we are finally going to see 140mph running on the ECML?

 

That does require the p-way and OLE to be suitable for 140mph running as well - not just having ECTS.

 

Given the current operation is 125mph and the flimsy nature of ECML OLE (compared to the GWML stuff which most definitely is designed around multiple pantograph, 140mph running)  its unlikely 140mph running would be possible from the outset, though once the signalling (i.e. ECTS) stuff is done then LNER might well be interested in taking advantage of it.

[melmerby]

56 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Artist's impression of the Bombardier-Hitachi bid.

I've no idea how close, or how fanciful this is.

 

 

 

 

The Talgo Avril

 

 

 

 

Alstom

 

 

 

 

Siemens

 

 

 

CAF Oaris

 

It's amazing how alike they look when speed comes into the design of a train.

 

I ntice the CAF one is named "James Watt". Are they using steam power?

[Zomboid]

The only HSL trains that look any different that I know of are the duck billed Japanese ones, which are apparently like that because of how aerodynamics are different in tunnels, which they've no shortage of.

[Edwin_m]

21 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That does require the p-way and OLE to be suitable for 140mph running as well - not just having ECTS.

 

Given the current operation is 125mph and the flimsy nature of ECML OLE (compared to the GWML stuff which most definitely is designed around multiple pantograph, 140mph running)  its unlikely 140mph running would be possible from the outset, though once the signalling (i.e. ECTS) stuff is done then LNER might well be interested in taking advantage of it.

And most importantly of all, a higher speed benefits the fastest trains and therefore makes them relatively faster than the slow ones.  This really hits capacity.  A time saving of five minutes or so probably eats the capacity created by the current works at Werrington.  

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

The only HSL trains that look any different that I know of are the duck billed Japanese ones, which are apparently like that because of how aerodynamics are different in tunnels, which they've no shortage of.

Indeed.  Not that the laws of aerodynamics are different but because the Japanese started with smaller tunnels.  When they tried to increase the speed they found that the train was pushing a pressure wave in front of it, which caused a sort of sonic boom when it got to the portal.  So they made the noses longer so the air can more easily flow round the side of the train rather than building up in front.  Everyone else just built larger tunnels.  

[Hesperus]

I liked the clean design of the Talgo and had another look to work out why I liked it which is when I noticed that the artists impression doesn't show a windscreen wiper where the 3 below it have chuffing great ones tacked on and looking very much like an afterthought.

 

I'd have thought it would be worthwhile to have designed these high speed trains with somewhere the wipers could be tucked away when not in use like they are on most modern cars which don't go anything like as fast.

 

I would mention the Hitachi design but for some reason the image link isn't working on my PC

[Mike Storey]

41 minutes ago, Hesperus said:

 

 

I would mention the Hitachi design but for some reason the image link isn't working on my PC

 

Try this, instead:

 

http://www.infrastructure-intelligence.com/article/jun-2019/hitachi-and-bombardier-bid-build-trains-hs2

 

This joint bid was published back in the summer of 2019. To my mind the front end looks much like the original Eurostar sets. They and CAF have the only UK-based assembly sites.

 

Alstom's looks a lot like the front end of the APT.

 

Not sure how Talgo and Siemens will fare, but they look good.......

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

43 minutes ago, Hesperus said:

.....I would mention the Hitachi design but for some reason the image link isn't working on my PC

 

Disappeared after the forum migration today.

I've fixed the link in the post above, but here it is again....

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[mdvle]

On 21/07/2020 at 03:49, Fenman said:

Looking for a silver lining, perhaps in a Covid19 world we’ll see a move away from cramming as many people as possible into a small space. More spacious layouts with screening between passengers (perhaps even a revival of compartment stock!).

 

The airlines have already gone back to using every seat so I can't see a new train doing anything to space people out.

 

The only difference, depending on where in the bidding process, might be a rethink of the hvac systems - apparently aircraft have a downward air movement with "fresh" air coming in above heads and being taken out of the cabin at floor level, which (supposedly) reduces the risk of covid transmission.

[Fenman]

4 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

The airlines have already gone back to using every seat so I can't see a new train doing anything to space people out.

...

I don’t disagree that HS2 will likely offer a cramped and miserable passenger experience, just like all new British trains, but the assertion I’ve quoted is just plain wrong. Some airlines are still guaranteeing that the middle seat in a row of three will be blocked-off if you are travelling alone (see Delta and Southwest).

 

Paul

[david.hill64]

12 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The only HSL trains that look any different that I know of are the duck billed Japanese ones, which are apparently like that because of how aerodynamics are different in tunnels, which they've no shortage of.

 

As Edwin said, more precisely, small bore tunnels.

 

I worked on the Taiwan High Speed Rail project which was designed to UIC infrastructure standards. The Japanese pointed out that a huge amount of money could be saved by adopting Japanese standards for tunnel sizes. (It was a potential saving of billions). However, the UIC sizes prevailed which meant that the Taiwan series 700 Shinkansen trains have a much more attractive front end than the  standard duckbill ,which is essential to reduce pressure pulses and stop sonic booms.

Edited July 23, 2020 by david.hill64
saw Edwin's remark

[Zomboid]

I believe the small tunnels are why Shinkansen have small windows, too. And relatively short service lives.

 

They're really suffering the same stuff that we have in the UK of a smaller than ideal loading gauge.

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Try this, instead:

 

http://www.infrastructure-intelligence.com/article/jun-2019/hitachi-and-bombardier-bid-build-trains-hs2

 

This joint bid was published back in the summer of 2019. To my mind the front end looks much like the original Eurostar sets. They and CAF have the only UK-based assembly sites.

 

 

 

 

Siemens will have a factory in Goole to assemble HS2 trains if they win the bid.

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I believe the small tunnels are why Shinkansen have small windows, too. And relatively short service lives.

 

They're really suffering the same stuff that we have in the UK of a smaller than ideal loading gauge.

IMHO It was a silly way to go, as with the design of the Shinkansen they were starting with a clean sheet, using

Standard gauge with a 11' body width and 25kV supply, whereas Japanese traditional railways are mainly 3' 6" gauge with a smaller body profile and various OHLE.

 

Mind you, they aren't all "duck billed"

See this 800 series:

 

[Zomboid]

The 800 series only runs on the Kyushu Shinkansen, which is a mere 260kph. That probably plays into it.