HS2

[phil-b259]

40 minutes ago, melmerby said:

IMHO It was a silly way to go, as with the design of the Shinkansen they were starting with a clean sheet, using

Standard gauge with a 11' body width and 25kV supply, whereas Japanese traditional railways are mainly 3' 6" gauge with a smaller body profile and various OHLE.

 

 

The penalties of being a pioneer

 

Its worth remembering that the original Shinkansen design speed was a mere 140mph, lightening fast for trains in the 1960s but rather poor today when 186mph / 200mph is the current standard and with ECTS we can have 140mph running on our Victorian mixed traffic railway.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The penalties of being a pioneer

 

Its worth remembering that the original Shinkansen design speed was a mere 140mph, lightening fast for trains in the 1960s but rather poor today when 186mph / 200mph is the current standard and with ECTS we can have 140mph running on our Victorian mixed traffic railway.

But aren't most Shinkansen routes self contained?

A newly constructed route could have bigger tunnel clearances with the added operational benefits but AFAIK they have carried on building to the same standards hence the requirement for duck billed front ends.

 

I remember a programme on Japan Railway Journal (NHK) where they were extolling the advantages of their solution and was puzzled by some of the logic to justify it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

But aren't most Shinkansen routes self contained?

A newly constructed route could have bigger tunnel clearances with the added operational benefits but AFAIK they have carried on building to the same standards hence the requirement for duck billed front ends.

 

I remember a programme on Japan Railway Journal (NHK) where they were extolling the advantages of their solution and was puzzled by some of the logic to justify it.

 

the point is more that standards change and if not anticipated that brings problems. Try running a train at 186mph through a tunnel bore designed for 140mph operation (and thus being smaller) it is going to give aerodynamic problems

 

When designed in the 1960s its quite probable that the Japanese never saw the need to go faster - so the bores on the Shinkansen network were relatively small. All fine and dandy till you want to upgrade with higher speeds - at which point it the tunnels are now too small and alternative solutions have to be found.

 

Thats why building HS2 in alignment and tunnel bore size for 250mph operation is a pretty good idea - both these factors being virtually impossible to do anything about later on (compared to OLE, p-way or signalling)

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

When designed in the 1960s its quite probable that the Japanese never saw the need to go faster - so the bores on the Shinkansen network were relatively small. All fine and dandy till you want to upgrade with higher speeds - at which point it the tunnels are now too small and alternative solutions have to be found.

That's OK if all the Shinkansen lines were built at the same time but many have been built after speeds were raised but tunnels are (so it would seem) still being constructed with the same bore.

[phil-b259]

17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That's OK if all the Shinkansen lines were built at the same time but many have been built after speeds were raised but tunnels are (so it would seem) still being constructed with the same bore.

well I guess having been forced into the ‘duck billed’ look for the initial lines they realised it was a useful technique to employ to reduce construction costs in future.

 

Engineering is awash with examples where the solution to one specific problem has actually turned out rather useful when applied more widely.

[caradoc]

16 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

They and CAF have the only UK-based assembly sites.

 

Talgo have plans for a train factory at Longannet, Scotland.

 

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Talgo have plans for a train factory at Longannet, Scotland.

 

Maybe a pre-condition of the tendering process for the HS2 fleet was a UK assembly plant?

[Ron Ron Ron]

A paper on aerodynamics and high speed rail tunnels....

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666123320300179

 

 

.

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Talgo have plans for a train factory at Longannet, Scotland.

 

 

Yes indeed. They and Siemens have "plans". CAF and Bombardier/Hitachi actually do have factories, of sorts.

 

It may well be a pre-condition for tender, but the element of UK work will vary most considerably.

[melmerby]

A tie in with HS2

Birmingham International Station upgrade plan has moved another step forward.

https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/westmidlands/news/2042695-plans-for-redevelopment-of-birmingham-international-station-move-to-next-stage

 

On TV news they were saying it is part of a plan to create a new mini town of residential & business in the area around and between International & HS2 stations.

 

Seems to be a lot of forward steps in rail infrastructure projects without any actual final go-aheads!

(Like the Man-Leeds upgrade elsewhere on RMWeb.)

 

 

 

[Edwin_m]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

IMHO It was a silly way to go, as with the design of the Shinkansen they were starting with a clean sheet, using

Standard gauge with a 11' body width and 25kV supply, whereas Japanese traditional railways are mainly 3' 6" gauge with a smaller body profile and various OHLE.

 

Mind you, they aren't all "duck billed"

See this 800 series:

 

 

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

But aren't most Shinkansen routes self contained?

A newly constructed route could have bigger tunnel clearances with the added operational benefits but AFAIK they have carried on building to the same standards hence the requirement for duck billed front ends.

 

I remember a programme on Japan Railway Journal (NHK) where they were extolling the advantages of their solution and was puzzled by some of the logic to justify it.

 

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

well I guess having been forced into the ‘duck billed’ look for the initial lines they realised it was a useful technique to employ to reduce construction costs in future.

 

Engineering is awash with examples where the solution to one specific problem has actually turned out rather useful when applied more widely.

And in relation to @david.hill64's comment on Taiwan, if the Japanese approach of smaller tunnels and pointy trains wasn't the best overall solution, the Japanese engineers and salespeople were hardly going to say that to a potential client!  Had they gone for small tunnels then the Japanese would have had a competitive advantage in selling trains to the Taiwan route until the end of time, as they could sell a standard product and the European suppliers would have had to re-design theirs.  

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

But aren't most Shinkansen routes self contained?

A newly constructed route could have bigger tunnel clearances with the added operational benefits but AFAIK they have carried on building to the same standards hence the requirement for duck billed front ends.

 

I remember a programme on Japan Railway Journal (NHK) where they were extolling the advantages of their solution and was puzzled by some of the logic to justify it.

 

Being self contained is irrelevant - the point is that when originally designed the tunnel diameter was sufficient for ordinary shaped trains running at 140mph. When it was decided to up the speeds later on specially shaped trains were found to be necessary to cope, it being impractical to retrospectively widen the tunnels.

 

The puzzle is why later builds which went for a higher line speed from the outset opted for odd shaped trains rather than larger tunnel diameters to solve the problem. Both of course involve extra costs, the former in extra spoil disposal, more expensive tunnelling machines, etc while bespoke trains drives up the cost of their procurement.

 

One answer however might lie in good old fashioned protectionism. If you need specially shaped trains which a manufacturer is going to struggle to sell to anyone else, then it discourages new entrants into the market upsetting traditional supply channels.

 

Another answer might be interworking of stock* - if you need finny shaped trains because part of their time is spent running on the oldest sections with the smallest tunnels, you might as well make the whole fleet like that to simply maintenance etc - and if your whole fleet is like it then why go to all the expense of digging larger tunnels as well.

 

* Note that in the UK, although HS2 is being built to UIC standards, ALL the trains will initially be fully compatible with the current network as the only places a Bespoke HS2 fleet could work is between London and Birmingham, and the fleet needed for such an operation would be so tiny as to be totally uneconomic to purchase. When the full HS2 network is built then the intention is to procure a captive fleet of trains, the grater number of termi making it viable.

[melmerby]

16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The puzzle is why later builds which went for a higher line speed from the outset opted for odd shaped trains rather than larger tunnel diameters to solve the problem. Both of course involve extra costs, the former in extra spoil disposal, more expensive tunnelling machines, etc while bespoke trains drives up the cost of their procurement.

 

Some of the extra costs of tunnelling might be alleviated by using less energy in service to push the air out of the way.

The tighter the fit the more drag due to friction.

 

Another odd thing with many later Japanese Shinkansen trains is almost a square cross section being fairly slab sided with a flat roof, a cross section of about 11' wide by 12' high.

They also like multiple pantographs and fit them with aerodynamic devices.

Edited July 23, 2020 by melmerby

[Ron Ron Ron]

The design of the first of 4 vent houses for the Chiltern tunnels, has been revealed by architects, Grimshaw.

 

https://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/grimshaw-reveals-hs2-vent-shaft-house-for-chiltern-tunnel/5107168.article

 

(note: you only get one chance to read this article, before it goes behind a firewall)

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Fat Controller]

54 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The design of the first of 4 vent houses for the Chiltern tunnels, has been revealed by architects, Grimshaw.

 

https://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/grimshaw-reveals-hs2-vent-shaft-house-for-chiltern-tunnel/5107168.article

 

(note: you only get one chance to read this article, before it goes behind a firewall)

 

 

 

 

.I'd have liked something a bit more 'Gormenghast-like' than what resembles an 'Atcost' farm shed from the 1960s.

 

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The design of the first of 4 vent houses for the Chiltern tunnels, has been revealed by architects, Grimshaw.

 

https://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/grimshaw-reveals-hs2-vent-shaft-house-for-chiltern-tunnel/5107168.article

 

(note: you only get one chance to read this article, before it goes behind a firewall)

 

If you want to read it again, just change browsers, it's not clever enough to notice it's the same computer.

[APOLLO]

I like this bit

 

Local wildlife will also be encouraged to move in with reptile basking banks, a grass snake laying heap, bird boxes and a hibernaculum included in the designs.

 

WOT_ No Great Crested bl**dy newts ??

 

Hibernaculum ? - Sounds like a station on the old Liverpool Overhead railway !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[wasabi]

On 21/07/2020 at 14:49, Zomboid said:

High capacity and comfort are not necessarily opponents of one another.

 

The trains they use on the Shinkansen manage both pretty effectively, for example.

Have you been in a typical 2+3 Shinkansen?  Not recommended for most Westerners, or the growing number (younger at the moment) of wider Japanese.

[IPW]

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I'd have liked something a bit more 'Gormenghast-like' than what resembles an 'Atcost' farm shed from the 1960s.

Isn't an Atcost farm shed from the 1960s entirely in keeping with the local area?  

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

Isn't an Atcost farm shed from the 1960s entirely in keeping with the local area?  

It probably is..

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Isn't an Atcost farm shed from the 1960s entirely in keeping with the local area?  

I suppose they could have had a stone built barn with thatched roof

 

(complete with height extension done during the years of bumper harvests)

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

......WOT_ No Great Crested bl**dy newts ??

 

No need. We have enough of them already. Too many of them.
Bl**dy infested with them in fact, as the blighters seem to occupy every bit of the countryside in the U.K. that is considered or chosen to be developed, or used for new road and rail infrastructure.

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been calls for a cull before these Great Crested monsters start swimming up the drains and start biting unsuspecting people on the proverbial, or begin jumping from trees and mauling little old ladies and small children.

 

 

.

[Zomboid]

4 hours ago, wasabi said:

Have you been in a typical 2+3 Shinkansen?  Not recommended for most Westerners, or the growing number (younger at the moment) of wider Japanese.

[IPW]

Yes, all the way from Tokyo to Osaka (and ultimately Kagoshima, but not in one go, and I got a bit of 2+2 on the Sanyo Shinkansen), and I found it very comfortable. I'm not especially small either, at 6'1".

[Ron Ron Ron]

HS2 video about the new M42 bridge, that is due to be moved into place in a few weeks time (.....if all goes well).