HS2

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

It's likely that Toton, with it's high speed rail and decent road links (at least looking at a map it's is right next to the M1) will grow into a population centre in it's own right. The problem with East Midlands geography is that it's a bunch of medium sized cities, so serving them all is near impossible. Putting the station at Toton at least serves western Nottingham well and there's an opportunity to provide good links to the other surrounding conurbations.

It would have to grow very significantly to justify the heavy rail connections it needs to make it sustainable, which would then have to be fitted into a very congested local rail network without worsening existing journeys.  The tram will help but only for nearby suburbs - it's just too slow for the centre of Nottingham or if extended to Derby.  

 

The risk is that firstly those good road connections mean the affluent locals drive there to go to London, taking prosperity out of the region.  Meanwhile any inbound visitors, who are more likely to be bringing prosperity in, are faced with a "Ryanair station" and having to get a connecting service for the centres of either Nottingham or Derby.  There is a big risk that those cities will in fact lose out.  

[ess1uk]

Train depot in Annandale?

 

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Train depot in Annandale?

 

Yes I had to look that up. Just north of Kingmoor and just inside Scotland, a servicing depot for, IIRC, 22 trainsets. Is there something political behind this location I wonder.

 

Jamie

[lmsforever]

Checked online and there is indeed a plan for a depot but no location but no location maybe the depot will be there because no space nearer Glasgow.

[jamie92208]

2 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Checked online and there is indeed a plan for a depot but no location but no location maybe the depot will be there because no space nearer Glasgow.

It took me a while but I eventually found a press release with an annotated map. It's on the west side of the WCML, north if Kingmoor yard and near Gretna. It's big and as you say it probably couldn't have been built near Glasgow. Being south of Carstairs it would serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow trains.

 

Jamie

[caradoc]

9 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Train depot in Annandale?

 

 

Given the distance from both Glasgow and Edinburgh that is a bizarre location for such a major facility; Either an awful lot of trains will be starting and terminating at Carlisle, or there will be a huge amount of wasteful ECS working. Agree that a location close to Glasgow would be difficult to find, but not so further out, in the Law Junction area for example. 

 

(Or are the planners anticipating Scottish Independence, a hard border and few trains running across it ?!!)

 

[caradoc]

Further to my comments above, this is the BBC News report on the proposal:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-54449079

 

Among other things, the site (which reportedly could house up to 28 trains) was "thought to be the most operationally suitable, cost-effective and least environmentally impactful solution". Personally I don't agree that running empty trains 90 miles (for that is roughly the distance between Gretna Jc and Glasgow or Edinburgh) to leave or enter service can in any way be regarded as operationally suitable or cost-effective. Hopefully the planners will look at a map before taking this any further. 

 

[Fat Controller]

5 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Further to my comments above, this is the BBC News report on the proposal:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-54449079

 

Among other things, the site (which reportedly could house up to 28 trains) was "thought to be the most operationally suitable, cost-effective and least environmentally impactful solution". Personally I don't agree that running empty trains 90 miles (for that is roughly the distance between Gretna Jc and Glasgow or Edinburgh) to leave or enter service can in any way be regarded as operationally suitable or cost-effective. Hopefully the planners will look at a map before taking this any further. 

 

It seems to be a similar logic to the location of 'Central Rivers' depot for the Voyager fleet.

[scottystitch]

2.131 The Annandale site, near the English-Scottish border, was judged to be the most operationally suitable, cost-effective and least environmentally impactful solution for a stabling facility. The new facility could stable up to 28 200m HS2 trains. This stabling space at Annandale would be supplemented by a small number of trains being stabled at the existing Polmadie depot near Glasgow.

 

2.135 Most trains stabled at the Annandale Depot would start and end passenger service at Carlisle.

 

 

 

From this document: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/923784/10961-DfT-HS2_DRC2_Response_Western_Leg_Late_Stage_V10_Accessible.pdf

 

 

Best

 

Scott.

[phil-b259]

On 11/10/2020 at 19:56, Edwin_m said:

That 30min is likely to be eroded by faster ECML times in the next few years.  I agree Birmingham to Yorkshire and the North East is greatly accelerated by HS2, as the existing route is slow and the HS2 one reasonably direct.  But as a resident of the East Midlands I'd say Toton doesn't offer much benefit, as it's not in the existing city centres and a connecting service to reach them means the London journey is only a few minutes quicker than by the existing route.  

 

 

But whats the alternative?

 

Routing HS2 through either Derby or Nottingham proper is going to need lots of tunnelling plus urban demolition to build a big enough station (even if you do stick it below ground) to cope with 800m long trains. Then of course whichever city is bypassed will, kick up an almighty political s***storm about being economically disadvantaged compared to its neighbour.

 

As such an out of town parkway station to serve both cities is a good compromise. Totton has brownfield land avalible for re-use, is located close to major roads, has the ability to be linked to Nottinghams tram network and has the potential for a rail shuttle service to both Nottingham and Derby. The only real criticism would be that the current design doesn't allow for the possibility of separate 400m trains from each city travelling to Totton and then combining for a fast run to London. However given the maximum train throughput on the London to Birmingham section is fixed at 18tph, a service terminating in the East Midlands takes out a train path that could be used by a service to Sheffield or Leeds say.

 

That said, if the planned eastern branch of HS2 doesn't get built (apart from a short link back to existing lines), there may be scope for dedicated Nottingham and Derby services on HS2 as the time penalty posed by the use of the existing Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Leeds route over the ECML is going to rule out HS2 services between London & Leeds being viable.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

36 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

But whats the alternative?

 

Routing HS2 through either Derby or Nottingham proper is going to need lots of tunnelling plus urban demolition to build a big enough station (even if you do stick it below ground) to cope with 800m long trains. Then of course whichever city is bypassed will, kick up an almighty political s***storm about being economically disadvantaged compared to its neighbour.

 

As such an out of town parkway station to serve both cities is a good compromise. Totton has brownfield land avalible for re-use, is located close to major roads, has the ability to be linked to Nottinghams tram network and has the potential for a rail shuttle service to both Nottingham and Derby. The only real criticism would be that the current design doesn't allow for the possibility of separate 400m trains from each city travelling to Totton and then combining for a fast run to London. However given the maximum train throughput on the London to Birmingham section is fixed at 18tph, a service terminating in the East Midlands takes out a train path that could be used by a service to Sheffield or Leeds say.

 

That said, if the planned eastern branch of HS2 doesn't get built (apart from a short link back to existing lines), there may be scope for dedicated Nottingham and Derby services on HS2 as the time penalty posed by the use of the existing Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Leeds route over the ECML is going to rule out HS2 services between London & Leeds being viable.

I proposed an alternative in the post you quoted, as well as pointing out the defects of Toton (not Totton, and the trains are 200/400m not 400m/800m).  East Midlands Parkway would have been a much better site, also with brownfield land but with the existing station having trains to all cities in the region.  The Breaston site that was considered for a while would have had similar connectivity.  

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

I proposed an alternative in the post you quoted, as well as pointing out the defects of Toton (not Totton, and the trains are 200/400m not 400m/800m).  East Midlands Parkway would have been a much better site, also with brownfield land but with the existing station having trains to all cities in the region.  The Breaston site that was considered for a while would have had similar connectivity.  

 

However you cannot consider the station in isolation. While connectivity with existing rail services would have been better at East Midlands Parkway, we live in an age where environmental / noise / visual impact considerations are just as important and IIRC this was why that site got rejected thus keeping HS2 close to the noise / pollution generators that are the M1 instead of sandwiching Kegworth between the M1 and HS2.

 

A look at Google earth also fails to show any significant areas of brownfield land near Breaston which could be used for a station.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I always assumed that the HS2 station at Toton was designed to capture traffic from the Western suburbs of Nottingham, rather than provide a HS2 service for the whole of Nottingham and Derby. 

 

Remember that Greater Nottingham is slightly unusual in that some of the suburban stations have InterCitys to London (every hour in the case of Beeston and Long Eaton) and there's also the option of driving to East Midlands Parkway. The HS2 station will just be another part of the mix. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by pete_mcfarlane

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I always assumed that the HS2 station at Toton was designed to capture traffic from the Western suburbs of Nottingham, rather than provide a HS2 service for the whole of Nottingham and Derby. 

 

 

Given the nature of HS2, I doubt that played a major factor in the siting of the station.

 

The key requirements for the East Midlands hub will have been defined:-

 

• Not wanting to compromise the line speed of HS2 in the area nor significantly increase costs (by necessitating lots of extra tunnelling for example)
• Having good access to the strategic road network
• Preferably being built on brownfield land to minimise environmental damage, ideally already in the ownership of another state entity.

Now, because the East Midlands area will not have a city centre station like Birmingham or Manchester, you then have to add:-

• Easy access to public transport connections for onward travel to Nottingham and Derby proper.

Now while obviously at present all passenger services avoid the area, the junctions / chords exist for services between Nottingham and Sheffield to travel via Totton rather than Lenton. Granted, serving Derby is a bit more problematic as you would need trains to reverse in Totton before continuing on to Leicester, Derby or Nottingham with the current infrastructure although if a south to east chord could be added to the Nottingham via Lenton route then you could avoid some of these reveal movements. The other big problem (which there is no real way of avoiding is the increased journey times between Derby / Nottingham / Leicester if trains are diverted via Totton.

 

However an examination of the area on Satellite imaginary, combined with the optimal HS2 alignment through the area doesn't reveal anything else suitable. Moving it south adjacent to the current East Midlands parkway station introduces complexities with the River Stour and sandwiching Kegworth village between HS2 and the M1 corridors.

[Edwin_m]

39 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Given the nature of HS2, I doubt that played a major factor in the siting of the station.

 

The key requirements for the East Midlands hub will have been defined:-

 

• Not wanting to compromise the line speed of HS2 in the area nor significantly increase costs (by necessitating lots of extra tunnelling for example)
• Having good access to the strategic road network
• Preferably being built on brownfield land to minimise environmental damage, ideally already in the ownership of another state entity.

Now, because the East Midlands area will not have a city centre station like Birmingham or Manchester, you then have to add:-

• Easy access to public transport connections for onward travel to Nottingham and Derby proper.

Now while obviously at present all passenger services avoid the area, the junctions / chords exist for services between Nottingham and Sheffield to travel via Totton rather than Lenton. Granted, serving Derby is a bit more problematic as you would need trains to reverse in Totton before continuing on to Leicester, Derby or Nottingham with the current infrastructure although if a south to east chord could be added to the Nottingham via Lenton route then you could avoid some of these reveal movements. The other big problem (which there is no real way of avoiding is the increased journey times between Derby / Nottingham / Leicester if trains are diverted via Totton.

 

However an examination of the area on Satellite imaginary, combined with the optimal HS2 alignment through the area doesn't reveal anything else suitable. Moving it south adjacent to the current East Midlands parkway station introduces complexities with the River Stour and sandwiching Kegworth village between HS2 and the M1 corridors.

There is no significant public transport at Toton, just the occasional bus.  There is a more frequent but slow bus through Stapleford and Sandicare and a non-stop bus on the A52, but diverting either of these would inconvenience other passengers.  The tram does serve the western suburbs of Nottingham but would be over 30min to the city centre.  

 

Midlands Connect has proposed a whole raft of connecting rail services but I don't think anybody has considered how they are to be accommodated on the existing busy double track routes and flat junctions without making other journeys slower or less frequent - especially as they would need to make tight connections with HS2 services.  Unless Toton grows into an absolute megalopolis there won't be enough non-HS2 passengers to make those services either the best use of capacity or cover their operating costs.  

 

I don't think the situation at Kegworth has any effect on the HS2 station issue.  It already has the M1 and is right under the takeoff and landing of East Midlands Airport just beyond, with the MML a mile or so away.  HS2 is already planned to thread between the village and the M1 and adding a stop nearby will if anything reduce the noise level as some of the trains will be running more slowly.  

 

It's the river Soar not Stour, and for the second time Toton has only two Ts.  

Edited October 13, 2020 by Edwin_m

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, scottystitch said:

2.131 The Annandale site, near the English-Scottish border, was judged to be the most operationally suitable, cost-effective and least environmentally impactful solution for a stabling facility. The new facility could stable up to 28 200m HS2 trains. This stabling space at Annandale would be supplemented by a small number of trains being stabled at the existing Polmadie depot near Glasgow.

 

2.135 Most trains stabled at the Annandale Depot would start and end passenger service at Carlisle.

 

Thanks for the link scottystitch.

 

The 52 page document includes the following statements: 

 

P45: 'Compared to Annandale, a stabling facility at Todhills would be more expensive and complex to construct, but would have lower operational costs than Annandale as Todhills is closer to Glasgow and Edinburgh meaning empty trains have less distance to travel for service start/end each day'. Neither Annandale or Todhills is in any way close to Glasgow and Edinburgh - Around 90 (ninety) miles as previously mentioned. 'Closer', and 'less distance', in this context therefore are meaningless. 

 

P45: 'Compared to Annandale, Ravenstruther would have had higher operational costs due to how far it is from Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh, resulting in more empty train movements.' Higher operational costs ? This is quite simply complete and utter nonsense; The number of empty train movements between wherever the depot is and Glasgow and Edinburgh will be the same regardless, however the distance from Ravenstruther would be roughly a third, to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, of the Annandale or Todhills proposals. 

(NB Ravenstruther is a short distance north of Carstairs.) 

 

P45: 'The new facility could stable up to 28 200m HS2 trains' and 'Most trains stabled at the Annandale Depot would start and end passenger service at Carlisle.' Nonsense again; There is not now, and never has been, any need for anywhere near 28 WCML expresses to start from or terminate at Carlisle, in fact at present not a single one does ! 

 

I have to wonder, has whoever produced any actual knowledge of how the railway, in particular the WCML north of Watford, actually operates ? 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, Edwin_m said:

There is no existing public transport at Toton.

 

I know that - as I'm sure do those in charge of choosing the HS2 route alignment through the area. It does however have potential to host a reasonable shuttle train service to Nottingham and Derby, though destinations further afield may be more problematic .

 

You should also note that the Birmingham Parkway station has no public transport links (yes there will be a people mover system over to the WCML Birmingham International station, but thats not going to make for a quick interchange between rail services) while even the Curzon Street site will require walking to existing stations to make onward rail connections.

 

HS2, with its adoption of the latest high speed rail standards is not an easy thing to fit into our crowded landscape, particularly with environmental matters and various pressure groups having a significant say on the routing, to say nothing of HM Treasury wanting to kill the scheme.

 

As I said earlier the location of the east Midlands parkway station is going to have to be a compromise - and it just so happens that locating it to create an ideal link with existing train services requires too many compromises to be made elsewhere for it to be a viable option.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I know that - as I'm sure do those in charge of choosing the HS2 route alignment through the area. It does however have potential to host a reasonable shuttle train service to Nottingham and Derby, though destinations further afield may be more problematic .

 

You should also note that the Birmingham Parkway station has no public transport links (yes there will be a people mover system over to the WCML Birmingham International station, but thats not going to make for a quick interchange between rail services) while even the Curzon Street site will require walking to existing stations to make onward rail connections.

 

HS2, with its adoption of the latest high speed rail standards is not an easy thing to fit into our crowded landscape, particularly with environmental matters and various pressure groups having a significant say on the routing, to say nothing of HM Treasury wanting to kill the scheme.

 

As I said earlier the location of the east Midlands parkway station is going to have to be a compromise - and it just so happens that locating it to create an ideal link with existing train services requires too many compromises to be made elsewhere for it to be a viable option.

 

 

Having worked on HS2 I'm very aware of the engineering issues and I've never suggested high speed infrastructure into the centre of either Nottingham or Derby (though HS2 worked up an option to use Derby station).  I'm also a resident of the East Midlands so know the area well.  

 

The difficulty of rail connection at Birmingham Interchange isn't really a big issue because all trains that might connect at International also call at New Street.  Curzon Street is badly named, in that Moor Street will be right outside the main entrance and New Street is only a short walk or tram ride away (I hope moving walkways will also be provided).  The East Midlands is the only place served only by an out of town station, which creates significant risks for the economic viability of the existing centres and for the future of sustainable transport in the region.  

[Zomboid]

One station I can think of which will have significant parallels to East Midlands HS2 is Bristol Parkway. That seems to have worked out pretty well. It's out in the suburbs of the place is serves with good connections to the local road network, and has a combination of train services from the fast long distance ones to the local suburban trains into temple meads. Quite a bit of housing etc has built up in the area too.

 

And what's the realistic alternative? Not having a HS2 service in the area?

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

One station I can think of which will have significant parallels to East Midlands HS2 is Bristol Parkway. That seems to have worked out pretty well. It's out in the suburbs of the place is serves with good connections to the local road network, and has a combination of train services from the fast long distance ones to the local suburban trains into temple meads. Quite a bit of housing etc has built up in the area too.

 

And what's the realistic alternative? Not having a HS2 service in the area?

 

Bristol Parkway is a bit different because the site it was built on (Stoke Gifford yard) was passed through by all trains between London and Wales, all trains from fast trains between Bristol and London that skipped Bath even before the thing was thought of, plus it could easily have all cross country trains routed through it.

 

Toton by contrast is on a route that never normally sees passengers services - as far as I know all Sheffield services are routed via Derby while services from Nottingham to the north use the quicker / shorter route out of the city via Lenton. Furthermore east west services bypass the area completely.

 

If the HS2 station was located at Breaston then easy interchange would be had with London - Leicester - Derby - Sheffield trains as well as Derby - Nottingham ones. Unfortunately that would mean building on green fields, building a new motorway junction on the M1, filling in a lake not to mention a very different alignment needed for HS2 itself.

 

The other site that has been touted alongside the East Midlands Parkway station would miss out on direct east west services (which would have to reverse at the station mid journey) but by contrast would gain access to London - Leicester - Nottingham trains as well as London - Leicester - Derby - Sheffield ones.  Also because its so far south of the city trains heading north out of Nottingham wouldn't be able to call without a massive time penalty.  Admittedly with junction 23 of the M1 close by road access is not problematic, but it would need adjustments to the HS2 alignment in the area which may well cause protests from Kegworth or engineering costs to rise.

 

In summary, no one site within the area ticks all the boxes and given the fragmented layout of passenger lines in the area achieving a perfect interchange situation between services (e.g. Bristol Parkway) is unachievable even if you ignore the myriad of the considerations which HS2 has to factor in.

 

Toton may look terrible from a rail interchange perspective at present, but with a bit of investment it can be made to work. The combination of having some services from the south reverse there before continuing, a south to east chord so Nottingham services from London can call there (as opposed to going via Beeston), the re-routing of some Nottingham to / from the north services via Beeston the extension of Nottingham tramway and ideally a Nottingham - Toton - Derby shuttle service would go a log way towards remedying the situation.

Edited October 13, 2020 by phil-b259

[Edwin_m]

18 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Bristol Parkway is a bit different because the site it was built on (Stoke Gifford yard) was passed through by all trains between London and Wales, all trains from fast trains between Bristol and London that skipped Bath even before the thing was thought of, plus it could easily have all cross country trains routed through it.

 

Toton by contrast is on a route that never normally sees passengers services - as far as I know all Sheffield services are routed via Derby while services from Nottingham to the north use the quicker / shorter route out of the city via Lenton. Furthermore east west services bypass the area completely.

 

If the HS2 station was located at Breaston then easy interchange would be had with London - Leicester - Derby - Sheffield trains as well as Derby - Nottingham ones. Unfortunately that would mean building on green fields, building a new motorway junction on the M1, filling in a lake not to mention a very different alignment needed for HS2 itself.

 

The other site that has been touted alongside the East Midlands Parkway station would miss out on direct east west services (which would have to reverse at the station mid journey) but by contrast would gain access to London - Leicester - Nottingham trains as well as London - Leicester - Derby - Sheffield ones.  Also because its so far south of the city trains heading north out of Nottingham wouldn't be able to call without a massive time penalty.  Admittedly with junction 23 of the M1 close by road access is not problematic, but it would need adjustments to the HS2 alignment in the area which may well cause protests from Kegworth or engineering costs to rise.

 

In summary, no one site within the area ticks all the boxes and given the fragmented layout of passenger lines in the area achieving a perfect interchange situation between services (e.g. Bristol Parkway) is unachievable even if you ignore the myriad of the considerations which HS2 has to factor in.

 

Toton may look terrible from a rail interchange perspective at present, but with a bit of investment it can be made to work. The combination of having some services from the south reverse there before continuing, a south to east chord so Nottingham services from London can call there (as opposed to going via Beeston), the re-routing of some Nottingham to / from the north services via Beeston the extension of Nottingham tramway and ideally a Nottingham - Toton - Derby shuttle service would go a log way towards remedying the situation.

Toton does indeed have no passenger service whatsoever (excepting occasional diversions).  The capacity and journey time issues of introducing these extra services remain unsolved, as well as the possibility that not being part of the core HS2 scheme they just wouldn't be funded.  There are no doubt plenty of engineering issues with Toton that might well outweigh those at an alternative site.  

 

However the question of Toton versus some other HS2 station nearby is now water under the bridge.  My main point in raising it was to point out that Toton has less value to its surrounding region than any of the other HS2 stations, and the resulting inability to serve the East Midlands well weakens the case for the eastern leg.  

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Toton does indeed have no passenger service whatsoever (excepting occasional diversions).  The capacity and journey time issues of introducing these extra services remain unsolved, as well as the possibility that not being part of the core HS2 scheme they just wouldn't be funded.  There are no doubt plenty of engineering issues with Toton that might well outweigh those at an alternative site.  

 

 

One would presume that these have been factored into the calculations of HS2 ltd when selecting the site.

 

However its also true to say that HS2 are focused pretty much only with their own project and won't consider wider railway connectivity issues which are demeaned to fall outside of the core remit given to them by the Government. This is of course deliberate, the more lose the terms of reference* the grater the potential of costs going up and given the outcry amongst certain sections of society the last thing HS2 needs is to bump up costs even more.

 

More generally, while the cancellation of the eastern leg would disadvantage Sheffield, Leeds and West Midlands to north East cross country services, provided the stub being built as part of phase 1 got linked into the existing network, Derby and Nottingham could actually benefit considerably as it opens up the opportunity for services to run to both city centres (with the Derby one extending to Sheffield as per now with trains to St Pancras. Thus far from actually being a bad thing, in an odd kind of way, rather than moaning about the threat of the eastern leg of HS2 being dropped  its almost as if Derby / Nottingham should be campaigning for that to happen.

 

 

 

* An example of this is when Crossrail was finally given the go ahead, the promoters were very clear that extension of the service from Maidenhead to Reading was only an aspiration - because if it was a defined outcome then Crossrail could have found themselves having to pay for / towards the resignalling (none was AC immune at that time) and electrification of the GWML west of Maidenhead.  In the event the Westminster Government eventually funded both (plus the Reading remodelling) out of its own budget and all Crossrail had to do was add a few trains onto its rolling stock order.

[APOLLO]

So it's all hunky dory for the 2 per hour 400m trains London - Glasgow / Edinburgh (plus Birmingham to Scotland) flying up the new line to Golborne, then a couple of miles of fast(ish) straight(ish) 4 / 6 existing tracks to Wigan North Western. On with the brakes for the 80 odd MPH reverse curves built on embankments through the town, then its a two tracks (past my house) for seven or so miles up through Standish to the 4 track bit at Euxton Junction to Preston.

 

Fine - BUT this 2 track bit has all the WCML freight trains (quite a few), Trans Pennine services (Liverpool-Scotland), Blackpool Preston Wigan Liverpool EMU services, Royal Mail EMU's Empty stock workings to & from the brand new depot at Springs Branch, plus non HS2 semi expresses etc.

 

Quite a busy stretch now.

 

https://traksy.uk/live/M+22+ECCLES+4/M+48+MSGT+-15/M+27+INCE+-27+487Q

 

A bottleneck.

 

AND we have Great Crested Newts trackside !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 even the Curzon Street site will require walking to existing stations to make onward rail connections.

 

 

5 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

  Curzon Street is badly named, in that Moor Street will be right outside the main entrance and New Street is only a short walk or tram ride away (I hope moving walkways will also be provided).

The current Moor Street Station and the new Curzon St (*?)  HS2 station will be integrated into one with a common circulating area fronting Moor Street.

There are also plans for a dedicated pedestrian connection to New St. which in reality is already pretty close (330m see map) to Moor St. but has road crossings and steps/ramps to negotiate between the two

https://goo.gl/maps/zhUrseEbJfq2fNKY9

 

*TBH I can't see that designation when it opens

[Edwin_m]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

One would presume that these have been factored into the calculations of HS2 ltd when selecting the site.

 

However its also true to say that HS2 are focused pretty much only with their own project and won't consider wider railway connectivity issues which are demeaned to fall outside of the core remit given to them by the Government. This is of course deliberate, the more lose the terms of reference* the grater the potential of costs going up and given the outcry amongst certain sections of society the last thing HS2 needs is to bump up costs even more.

 

More generally, while the cancellation of the eastern leg would disadvantage Sheffield, Leeds and West Midlands to north East cross country services, provided the stub being built as part of phase 1 got linked into the existing network, Derby and Nottingham could actually benefit considerably as it opens up the opportunity for services to run to both city centres (with the Derby one extending to Sheffield as per now with trains to St Pancras. Thus far from actually being a bad thing, in an odd kind of way, rather than moaning about the threat of the eastern leg of HS2 being dropped  its almost as if Derby / Nottingham should be campaigning for that to happen.

 

 

 

* An example of this is when Crossrail was finally given the go ahead, the promoters were very clear that extension of the service from Maidenhead to Reading was only an aspiration - because if it was a defined outcome then Crossrail could have found themselves having to pay for / towards the resignalling (none was AC immune at that time) and electrification of the GWML west of Maidenhead.  In the event the Westminster Government eventually funded both (plus the Reading remodelling) out of its own budget and all Crossrail had to do was add a few trains onto its rolling stock order.

I get the impression Toton was seen when selected as a relatively easy place to build a station as it was already a railway site, and that difficulties have emerged since - not least the objections of Long Eaton to having a tall viaduct over the centre of the town.  

 

I agree HS2 has been very siloed, which is good for controlling project scope but less good when trying to build an integrated transport network.  First the Higgins review and now the Integrated Rail Plan have pushed it more towards considering the network as a whole, but unfortunately decisions like the selection of Toton were made before that happened.  So if it happens at all someone else has to pick up the tab for the connecting services needed to make it work.