HS2

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, APOLLO said:

So it's all hunky dory for the 2 per hour 400m trains London - Glasgow / Edinburgh (plus Birmingham to Scotland) flying up the new line to Golborne, then a couple of miles of fast(ish) straight(ish) 4 / 6 existing tracks to Wigan North Western. On with the brakes for the 80 odd MPH reverse curves built on embankments through the town, then its a two tracks (past my house) for seven or so miles up through Standish to the 4 track bit at Euxton Junction to Preston.

 

Fine - BUT this 2 track bit has all the WCML freight trains (quite a few), Trans Pennine services (Liverpool-Scotland), Blackpool Preston Wigan Liverpool EMU services, Royal Mail EMU's Empty stock workings to & from the brand new depot at Springs Branch, plus non HS2 semi expresses etc.

 

Quite a busy stretch now.

 

https://traksy.uk/live/M+22+ECCLES+4/M+48+MSGT+-15/M+27+INCE+-27+487Q

 

A bottleneck.

 

 

That is an interim solution with the intention of extending it further north.

 

This is similar to the M1 only stretching from Watford to Rugby when it opened in 1959. Extending it south to London or north to Leicester, Sheffield & Leeds was not an afterthought.

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That is an interim solution with the intention of extending it further north.

 

This is similar to the M1 only stretching from Watford to Rugby when it opened in 1959. Extending it south to London or north to Leicester, Sheffield & Leeds was not an afterthought.

The easy bit was done first, that through the heavily built up areas takes longer.

Same with the M6, went north from the A454 (Walsall/Wolverhampton) The "Midland Links" section through the heavily built up area including Gravelly Hill (Spaghetti Junction) took much longer.

[jamie92208]

13 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That is an interim solution with the intention of extending it further north.

 

This is similar to the M1 only stretching from Watford to Rugby when it opened in 1959. Extending it south to London or north to Leicester, Sheffield & Leeds was not an afterthought.

Perhaps when they get to the Shap area they may finally build the tunnel that was to replace the 'temporary ' alignment from the 1840's that's still in use today.

 

Jamie

[lmsforever]

Oh dear  just out on the news ,costs are up by  £8OOM   due to asbestos and other items  the antis will jump on this but costs are going to have to be controled.

[Pete the Elaner]

3 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Oh dear, just out on the news ,costs are up by £8OOM due to asbestos and other items the antis will jump on this but costs are going to have to be controlled.

 

Probably a story twisted from the facts by masses of bias, which many will believe & slap all over social media. 

[Allegheny1600]

10 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

I get the impression Toton was seen when selected as a relatively easy place to build a station as it was already a railway site, and that difficulties have emerged since - not least the objections of Long Eaton to having a tall viaduct over the centre of the town.  

 

 

As a former resident of the Derby and Spondon area, I feel reasonably qualified to comment.

I'm pretty sure that all around Long Eaton is poor ground for building roads, railways etc on due to fairly regular flooding from the river Trent, hence a viaduct would be necessary if ugly. Not that it would do that much harm really!

Toton was the site of quite a large marshalling yard and AFAIK is still railway land so I imagine should be fairly cheap to develop HOWEVER, when I was last down that way and commuting into Derby from Spondon, the A52 was always chronically busy.

It was mostly even worse going into Nottingham.

Unless something is done, I struggle to see HS2 passengers being happy at being forced to use the existing road network. What chance decent shuttle trains being used Derby - Toton - Nottingham? (rather better than 2 or 3 car DMUs, please)

[Edwin_m]

27 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

As a former resident of the Derby and Spondon area, I feel reasonably qualified to comment.

I'm pretty sure that all around Long Eaton is poor ground for building roads, railways etc on due to fairly regular flooding from the river Trent, hence a viaduct would be necessary if ugly. Not that it would do that much harm really!

Toton was the site of quite a large marshalling yard and AFAIK is still railway land so I imagine should be fairly cheap to develop HOWEVER, when I was last down that way and commuting into Derby from Spondon, the A52 was always chronically busy.

It was mostly even worse going into Nottingham.

Unless something is done, I struggle to see HS2 passengers being happy at being forced to use the existing road network. What chance decent shuttle trains being used Derby - Toton - Nottingham? (rather better than 2 or 3 car DMUs, please)

HS2 is proposed to run on viaduct from near Kegworth across the Soar valley to Red Hill and across the Trent Valley and over Long Eaton.  I think everyone thought Toton would be easy as former railway land, but less so in practice.  

 

The plans for shuttle trains are here: https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/midlands-engine-rail/hs2-east-midlands-hub-connectivity/

 

Assuming one of each per hour:

• The Matlock train will extend journey times between Matlock and Nottingham by about 20min or remove through service entirely, unless infrastructure is put in to run two trains per hour on the Matlock branch (and everywhere else it passes through).  It will effectvely reduce the Nottingham-Derby service by one train per hour as one of the others will overtake while it makes its detour to Toton.  So the more savvy Matlock passengers will probably get the later train to arrive earlier!  
• The Alfreton train is probably a diversion of the Nottingham-Leeds and/or Liverpool, extending those journeys by at least 10min and putting more pressure on the line through Beeston (double track with two level crossings)
• The Mansfield train probably through-routes with the Leicester, no equivalent existing service so one extra path through Trent
• One of the Newark and the Grantham is probably through-routed with the Matlock but the other will be another extra train via Beeston.  
• There's a plan on another page for an hourly Birmingham-Toton-Nottingham, which is a good idea.  But will be yet another train via Beeston unless something else is removed.  
• What's the chance of getting more than a couple of that lot to provide decent connections at whatever time the HS2 trains stop?

As far as I'm concerned it's an operational nightmare - and worth mentioning again there's no funding for it.  And the number of passengers changing at Toton will barely justify a 2-car unit.  

[black and decker boy]

6 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Oh dear  just out on the news ,costs are up by  £8OOM   due to asbestos and other items  the antis will jump on this but costs are going to have to be controled.

No budget increase, the £800m is within the £5.7bn of contingency held within the budget (as with all properly planned construction budgets, a contingency is held for unforeseen events of which ground contamination is a regular big spender).

 

so costs ARE being controlled

[96701]

In terms of main lines vs cross country, my son had an interesting choice at Newcastle one day. He'd been to Berwick and was returning to Oxford when he was a student and still using his priv, so had a date filled in that meant that he could go anywhere he wanted.

 

Standing at Newcastle station, he noticed that there was a cross country direct to Oxford and a GNER to Kings Cross setting out about the same time. He chose the GNER to King Cross,  Circle Line to Paddington and an express to Oxford.

 

As he was walking on the footbridge at Oxford, the cross country voyager drew in.

[melmerby]

26 minutes ago, 96701 said:

In terms of main lines vs cross country, my son had an interesting choice at Newcastle one day. He'd been to Berwick and was returning to Oxford when he was a student and still using his priv, so had a date filled in that meant that he could go anywhere he wanted.

 

Standing at Newcastle station, he noticed that there was a cross country direct to Oxford and a GNER to Kings Cross setting out about the same time. He chose the GNER to King Cross,  Circle Line to Paddington and an express to Oxford.

 

As he was walking on the footbridge at Oxford, the cross country voyager drew in.

I once did a similar thing (some years back)

 

Travelling from Birmingham to Gatport Airwick() the choice was either direct on IIRC a Manchester to Brighton service (diesel hauled, old rolling stock, slow, direct) or Brum-Euston, Euston to Victoria, Victoria to Gatwick on Gatwick Express (fast, modern electric services but two changes with a LU connection)

We decided to do the via Euston route.

In the end the two trains arrived at Gatwick within minutes of each other!

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by melmerby

[caradoc]

Recently I've been travelling (when allowed !) between Glasgow and Oxford via London, because there are currently no Avanti Glasgow/Birmingham trains, plus I only have to make one seat reservation instead of three. The only drawback is the additional cost of a tube ticket (plus the vagaries of the Circle Line at Paddington). 

[Joseph_Pestell]

15 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Recently I've been travelling (when allowed !) between Glasgow and Oxford via London, because there are currently no Avanti Glasgow/Birmingham trains, plus I only have to make one seat reservation instead of three. The only drawback is the additional cost of a tube ticket (plus the vagaries of the Circle Line at Paddington). 

 

If your ticket is "via London", the tube fare should be included. ISTR there is a cross symbol after the price to indicate this.

[Northmoor]

These different means of arriving at the same place at the same time (or even before) demonstrate that there are often two markets; those who value time and those, often irregular or elderly travellers, who like to avoid the disruption and effort of changing trains (especially in London).

 

These alternative routes don't just apply to Inter-City/Cross-Country.  I used to travel as a student between Pembrokeshire and Liverpool and quickly found that travelling the long way round via Cardiff instead of the "direct" route via the Heart of Wales, made no difference.  Connections from Milford Haven services to the HoW trains at Llanelli were always poor in either direction (50 minutes plus), whereas going via Cardiff it was usually about 20 minutes before getting the same train I would change onto at Shrewsbury if coming via the HoW.  Catching it at Cardiff meant I obviously got a seat, whereas at Shrewsbury I was joining a fairly full train.  There was also of course, more spotting opportunity around Cardiff and Newport....

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

15 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

• One of the Newark and the Grantham is probably through-routed with the Matlock but the other will be another extra train via Beeston.  

I still can't quite figure out why they are proposing services from Grantham and Newark to the HS2 station at Toton. It feels like somebody has decided to play join the dots with all the nearby large towns, rather than looking at end to end journey times. It will probably take longer to get from Grantham to the HS2 hub than it currently does from Grantham to Leeds or Kings Cross. 

 

 

 

 

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I still can't quite figure out why they are proposing services from Grantham and Newark to the HS2 station at Toton. It feels like somebody has decided to play join the dots with all the nearby large towns, rather than looking at end to end journey times. It will probably take longer to get from Grantham to the HS2 hub than it currently does from Grantham to Leeds or Kings Cross. 

Grantham/Newark have a bit of value going to Birmingham I guess, but there can't be more than a handful of people per hour doing that journey.  It's more a case of a train serving mostly intermediate rather than end-to-end journeys, and possibly trying to reduce platform useage at Nottingham by combining terminating trains at either end.  

[phil-b259]

22 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Oh dear  just out on the news ,costs are up by  £8OOM   due to asbestos and other items  the antis will jump on this but costs are going to have to be controled.

 

Given the age of many of the structures in the Euston area, finding more asbestos that needs dealing with shouldn't be a surprise - many 1960s train carriages used it extensively for insulation!

 

I'm also told one of the big problems with the Houses of Parliament is the place is riddled with the stuff and the costs of removing it are only a 'best guess' as lots of it is suspected to be hidden and only accessible once rebuilding starts. To a degree I suspect the same is true of Euston - pre work surveys can only tell you so much, particularly given the fact that anything which might be considered asbestos cannot be removed to probe further without specialist equipment.

 

Given the HSE regulations state that Asbestos may be left in place if it is sealed in / undisturbed then obviously if HS2 wasn't happening then the Asbestos would stay in place. However it would still present an issue to other developers and NR when they come to consider rebuilding / regenerating the Euston area

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by phil-b259

[Bernard Lamb]

15 hours ago, 96701 said:

In terms of main lines vs cross country, my son had an interesting choice at Newcastle one day. He'd been to Berwick and was returning to Oxford when he was a student and still using his priv, so had a date filled in that meant that he could go anywhere he wanted.

 

Standing at Newcastle station, he noticed that there was a cross country direct to Oxford and a GNER to Kings Cross setting out about the same time. He chose the GNER to King Cross,  Circle Line to Paddington and an express to Oxford.

 

As he was walking on the footbridge at Oxford, the cross country voyager drew in.

At one time there was a similar situation at Haymarket. I think it was around 8.50 when there was an ECML London bound train from Aberdeen and a WCML at the adjacent platform. For me here was not a lot of difference in the actual journey times. In this case the trains departed going in opposite directions with both bound for London.

Bernard

[jamie92208]

57 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

At one time there was a similar situation at Haymarket. I think it was around 8.50 when there was an ECML London bound train from Aberdeen and a WCML at the adjacent platform. For me here was not a lot of difference in the actual journey times. In this case the trains departed going in opposite directions with both bound for London.

Bernard

And of course Toton is rather close to Trent Junction where famously you could catch trains to London in either direction from either side of the island platform.

I doubt that you will be able to do that from Toton.

 

Jamie

 

[caradoc]

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

If your ticket is "via London", the tube fare should be included. ISTR there is a cross symbol after the price to indicate this.

 

Fortunately I have the very great benefit of a staff pass, so all I have to pay is the tube fare (so I really can't complain !)

 

[Dava]

My article on the implications for the East Midlands of possible/likely Eastern Leg cancellation.

 

https://eastmidlandsbylines.co.uk/hs2-is-your-train-delayed-indefinitely/

 

Dava

[adb968008]

On 14/10/2020 at 21:44, black and decker boy said:

No budget increase, the £800m is within the £5.7bn of contingency held within the budget (as with all properly planned construction budgets, a contingency is held for unforeseen events of which ground contamination is a regular big spender).

 

so costs ARE being controlled

800 mil out of 5.7 bil. Is a fairly big chunk.

Thats 4.9bn left and were only just at the begining.

 

The problem with contingencies, is everyone knows its free money, and its a competition to get a slice of it.

 

Lets home someone doesnt find bats, or newts in their compulsory purchased garden or misfitted asbestos in that to be demolished garden shed.

Edited October 16, 2020 by adb968008

[lmsforever]

With what is happening in the UK at the moment there will come a time when cash must become a problem many demands are being made of a diminishing resource.Eventualy normality will come back but what state our economy will be in is anybodies guess and what will happen to projects is problamatic.HS2 is an important link in improving our economy and reinventing the north so it should have a good chance of continuing. But other projects and services will be under review and may not happen.But its all in the future we have to get through now I hope all the poloticing will stop and  efforts made to educate and keep us safe ,so keep safe everyone.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

With what is happening in the UK at the moment there will come a time when cash must become a problem many demands are being made of a diminishing resource.Eventualy normality will come back but what state our economy will be in is anybodies guess and what will happen to projects is problamatic.HS2 is an important link in improving our economy and reinventing the north so it should have a good chance of continuing. But other projects and services will be under review and may not happen.But its all in the future we have to get through now I hope all the poloticing will stop and  efforts made to educate and keep us safe ,so keep safe everyone.

There may finally be an adjustment at HMG coming out if the crisis. There are snippets coming out of a move away from new road investment (unless directly unlocking new houses), it’s about the green economy and technology. 
 

so some of the local council area plans may be under threat of no funding, the ox-Cam expressway seems to be moving down the agenda and further from delivery as are other major trunk road schemes.

 

maybe rail will gain but that depends on just how passenger numbers return

 

as for HS2, phase 1 annual costs are insignificant (£4bn per year) so cancelling it really makes little difference to the UK budget. The 40,000 or so jobs it’s supports In build contribute £400m annually To the treasury and much more to the wider economy so it remains good value investment in the future

[DavidLong]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/20/former-tree-of-the-year-felled-in-warwickshire-to-make-way-for-hs2

 

I've been a Guardian reader for over fifty five years but most of their coverage of HS2 makes me despair.

 

David

[melmerby]

19 minutes ago, DavidLong said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/20/former-tree-of-the-year-felled-in-warwickshire-to-make-way-for-hs2

 

I've been a Guardian reader for over fifty five years but most of their coverage of HS2 makes me despair.

 

David

I used to read the Guardian, when I was still at BT.

I liked the crosswords, especially from setters like Auracaria.

I haven't liked it's tone for some time.

 

There was an extended piece in Midlands Today just now with loads of tearful protesters bemoaning the loss of the pear tree and other woodland, saying the replacements are just not enough.

"They just carry on cutting down the trees even though we try to stop them"

Do they really expect them to stop? Or are they just making a noise for their own satisfaction?