HS2

[KeithMacdonald]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

This would be like abandoning all rail and road investment ceasing in the 1960s, because British Rail had successfully operated a Hovertrain for one lap around a field in Cambridgeshire.  It's clearly the future.......

 

They also successfully patented a flying saucer.

[Zomboid]

38 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

hence I contend that HS2 remains not as well integrated into the conventional rail network as it could be.

Everything being a terminus doesn't help. If it were possible to run through the stations at Birmingham and Leeds, then the general NE/SW connectivity could be vastly improved over today's service, but that's not what's happening.

 

I guess that's another ideal world against what can be reasonably done, but a terminal station at Leeds in particular feels like a missed opportunity.

[jamie92208]

23 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Everything being a terminus doesn't help. If it were possible to run through the stations at Birmingham and Leeds, then the general NE/SW connectivity could be vastly improved over today's service, but that's not what's happening.

 

I guess that's another ideal world against what can be reasonably done, but a terminal station at Leeds in particular feels like a missed opportunity.

I think that there is a connection to the classic lines in the Hunslet area where the Leeds leg runs in the same cutting as the conventional line. Classic compatible trains could possibly headinto Leeds City an then head north. However it might well be quicker for them to reverse then turn north to Church Fenton.

 

Jamie

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 facts are that post Spanish Flue live carried on as normal, people moved around, economies recovered and eventually grew. After the black death society didn't stop it took time to recover but still moved forward as it was or similar to before.

 

@Tricky-CRS - "Facts" are a tricky thing, one has to be careful not to construct a Straw Man argument by using facts that have no contextual relevance.

e.g. there was no Lockdown during the Spanish Flu, so how's that a good example?

 

It's also a "fact" that there wasn't much demand for rail travel before or after the Black Death (1346-53), and it took about 200 years for the size of population to recover to pre Black Death levels.

https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/how-europes-population-in-the-middle-ages-doubled/

 

Granted, they didn't have telecommuting back then either, which would have probably been seen as a form of witchcraft and got you burnt alive as well.

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Everything being a terminus doesn't help. If it were possible to run through the stations at Birmingham and Leeds, then the general NE/SW connectivity could be vastly improved over today's service, but that's not what's happening.

 

I guess that's another ideal world against what can be reasonably done, but a terminal station at Leeds in particular feels like a missed opportunity.

 

This is quite true - but you do need to be realistic as to what is achievable.

 

Birmingham New Street being below ground already and surrounded by high rise constructions with deep foundations means digging an underground, straight, 6 x 800m platform HS2 station is not a remotely practical or affordable option.

 

Leeds has a similar-ish problem in that its quite curvy and on a viaduct - though high rise buildings are less of an issue.

 

In both cities there is very little choice other than to make the HS2 stations dead ends.

 

Even in Manchester (where serious proposals have emerged to sink the HS2 station into a giant box so it can become a through station on a trans-pennine route would be prenominally expensive.

[KeithMacdonald]

40 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Everything being a terminus doesn't help. If it were possible to run through the stations at Birmingham and Leeds, then the general NE/SW connectivity could be vastly improved over today's service, but that's not what's happening.

 

I guess that's another ideal world against what can be reasonably done, but a terminal station at Leeds in particular feels like a missed opportunity.

 

I'm wondering about that as well, Like, all the talk here about HS2 benefiting XC travel from Plymouth and Bristol. Sounds great, where would the interchange be? Or would it be a shuttle between B'Ham New St and Curzon Street?

[phil-b259]

Just now, KeithMacdonald said:

 

I'm wondering about that as well, Like, all the talk here about HS2 benefiting XC travel from Plymouth and Bristol. Sounds great, where would the interchange be? Or would it be a shuttle between B'Ham New St and Curzon Street?

 

Based on HS2 as currently being constructed anyone coming from Plymouth / Bristol wanting to use HS2 will have to get off at Birmingham New Street and walk / take the tram over to Curzon Street. Not an attractive proposition for the long distance travellers a large chunk of whom are leisure travellers with luggage to carry about.

 

Of course with Birmingham being a sizeable city in its own right XC will still benefit as people heading to Leeds or Manchester can join a HS2 service at Curzon Street rather than try and board an already full XC service at New Street.

 

The lack of a link at Washford Heath is however a missed opportunity that will be expensive to add later on compared to had it been built as part of phase .

 

[John Tomlinson]

5 hours ago, ess1uk said:

News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55862648

Top marks to Ms. Kelly in my book for having the guts to be honest  - I fear it won't have done her career any good at all.

 

We all have our opinions about how things may turnout, post Covid, but none of us actually knows.

 

What we do know, and a quick scan of this thread in recent months makes clear, is that Phase 1 is a done deal. No government is going to walk away from all the work that has already been done, and we may safely assume, all the commitments and contracts that have already been entered into.

 

The issue then is what happens next. It seems to me that the only realistic play now for those opposed to the scheme, and what the boys and girls in the Euston tunnels are doing, is keeping up the pressure and public awareness of the project and its possible shortcomings with a view to getting subsequent parts axed.

 

Only time will tell.

 

John.

 

 

[melmerby]

Most forecasts that I have seen suggest that rail transport post pandemic will probably rise to around 85% of previous levels for general rail travel and 80% for business users, That would still be insufficient to remove the need for more railway infrastructure for the WCML corridor.

 

Interestingly looking at the latest Japan Railway Journal (on NHK Thursday),  the Japanese have come up with a similar forecasts.

 

On another point I see the Euston tunnellers are playing martyrs now.

Due to the rain it would seem that "liquid mud" is now running into their tunnel.

Network rail has offered to help but they have refused and say they will never come out until HS2 is stopped.

They will but probably in wooden overcoats

[Edwin_m]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not really

 

The extra connections HS2 is making to the classic network have only come about because of cost cutting rather than any desire to make it more useful. Also, as the 'Northern Powerhouse' rail projects are not fully developed yet and a long way from construction starting, plus there is uncertainty that HS2 will be built in its entirety its by no mean certain the end result will be as 'integrated' as you think.

 

The biggest clues about a lack of integration are the omissions on the section under construction - the two most obvious being..

 

A connection to the conventional network in the Washford Heath area would give the potential for Cross country services from the South West via Birmingham New Street to transfer onto HS2 and accelerate Bristol - Manchester or Bristol to Leeds (subject to the eastern leg being built that is)

 

A connection to the Birmingham - Lichfield - Burton - Derby route would allow a service to the East Midlands to be provided in advance of the eastern leg being built.

 

In France they were usually pretty good at providing these types of links thus maximising the potential use of the high speed infrastructure. While the UKs appalling record with electrification (rout miles wise) and the smaller loading gauge do complicate matters its not beyond the whit of man to come up with solutions such as Bi-mode classic compatible trains

I agree it was a missed opportunity not to at least make provision in the design for a Washwood Heath connection, so trains could transfer off HS2 to New Street and onward towards Bristol.  This would of course require electrification from Bromsgrove to Bristol so wouldn't be immediately useful.  

 

However similar "touch points" are being incorporated further north including: for a high speed line towards Liverpool connecting from both Manchester and Crewe; for trains to exit Manchester Piccadilly onto a new high speed line towards Leeds; and as mentioned above to connect into the existing Leeds station from the south and also to use part of HS2 between Leeds and York.  None of these reduces the cost of HS2 at all but allows future use by NPR services.  It reduces the cost by avoiding a totally new line for NPR I guess.  

 

As to the East Midlands it is now being suggested that HS2 could drop onto the existing line at Trent Junction, allowing London and Birmingham trains to terminate in Nottingham.  This would probably result in the dropping of the HS2 eastern leg north of there, but it's being sold as prioritising regional rather than London links.  I personally hope that if something like that happens there will still be an HS2 section into Leeds, probably re-designed to prioritise trains to and from Sheffield and Doncaster.  

[62613]

5 hours ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

Odd thing about this article is that DfT can't predict travel post pandemic reasonable but the anti-lobby can with so called money in the bank guaranties. The fact is no one knows, facts are that post Spanish Flue live carried on as normal, people moved around, economies recovered and eventually grew. After the black death society didn't stop it took time to recover but still moved forward as it was or similar to before. 18 months pent up demand for expression and freedom, I am optimistic we will return to normality eventually, history tells us that.

Completely off topic, in England, such was the death rate that it's reckoned that the Black Death caused the collapse  of the feudal system, because the peasants could offer their services to the highest bidder, rather than be tied to a particular lord. It's what gave us the journeyman labourer.

[Sheffield]

A little while ago I was reading of the protests made about the building of the first Birmingham London railway, with many people saying it was unecessary and damaging to the enviroment, although they did not use that word so freely then.

Can we say now that they were right and the railway was unecessary? Or have they been proved wrong?

We could probably say something similar about the M1 as well. Perhaps people who need to travel between those two cities should be happy with a couple of days on the top of a stage coach.

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

The issue then is what happens next. It seems to me that the only realistic play now for those opposed to the scheme, and what the boys and girls in the Euston tunnels are doing, is keeping up the pressure and public awareness of the project and its possible shortcomings with a view to getting subsequent parts axed.

 

 

Weirdly enough though having completed phase one makes further phases more likely to happen!

 

There was zero point in providing more capacity between Birmingham and Manchester if the trains were unable to reach London. Dito the East and West Midlands - if you wanted to kill the HS2 project then its the London bit you needed to get scrapped.

 

What I can see happening is that expansion will take place more slowly than previously envisaged - again observing what the French did is a very good idea as to how this may play out as the original Paris to Lyon route was gradually extended southwards.

 

Crewe - Manchester / Wigan I can see being put on the back burner as you have already achieved quite a lot in terms of by-passing the existing WCML and the potential synergies with a potential new Trans-Pennine route cannot be ignored.

 

On the other hand I could see parts of the eastern branch be bought forward - phase one will leave a ready built stub literally ending in a field near Lichfield and extending that towards the East Midlands (with connections to existing routes to Derby and Nottingham added as opposed to terminating at Toton)  ticks an awful lot of boxes politically and practically with a relatively modest outlay.

 

7 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Only time will tell.

 

 

Indeed - but what lots of people seem to forget is we are around a decade away from starting construction of phase 2b (Crewe - Manchester / Wigan) and phase 3 (eastern leg) so there is in fact plenty of time to wait and see what happens to post Covid travel demand anyway!

 

You cannot scrap work on something that has not yet started (and the bulk of the money will spent in building the thing) - while the work that has been done so far on phase 2 / 3 provides a valuable starting point when / if the next phases are considered worth pursuing.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, Sheffield said:

A little while ago I was reading of the protests made about the building of the first Birmingham London railway, with many people saying it was unecessary and damaging to the enviroment, although they did not use that word so freely then.

Can we say now that they were right and the railway was unecessary? Or have they been proved wrong?

We could probably say something similar about the M1 as well. Perhaps people who need to travel between those two cities should be happy with a couple of days on the top of a stage coach.

 

We do need to a bit careful - the original London to Birmingham railway nor the M1 were being built just when demand for travel evaporated due to a global pandemic!

 

18 months ago your comments would have been spot on but even I, a committed HS2 supporter recognise that we cannot take anything for granted as regards future travel demand. Yes it will recover, that I am sure of but exactly to what level remains to be seen.

 

My gut feeling is that the Government will be doing all they can to push travel - if for no other reason than to create jobs in the service sector (e.g. coffee shops and such like) particularly when traditional employers like high street retail have been shedding people by the thousands over the past 12 months and the once vibrant music / arts scheme has been decimated job wise.

 

We also need to remember that we have increasingly stringent goals to meet as regards climate change and simply banning the sale of new petrol / diesel cars from 2030 is not going to do that on its own - some will have to shift to rail even in the post Covid economic environment where working from home is far more prevalent.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

As to the East Midlands it is now being suggested that HS2 could drop onto the existing line at Trent Junction, allowing London and Birmingham trains to terminate in Nottingham.  This would probably result in the dropping of the HS2 eastern leg north of there, but it's being sold as prioritising regional rather than London links.  I personally hope that if something like that happens there will still be an HS2 section into Leeds, probably re-designed to prioritise trains to and from Sheffield and Doncaster.  

 

As I have said before Leeds to London via Birmingham doesn't offer any time advantages - its only real selling point is to get round capacity constraints on the ECML

 

Leeds to Birmingham or Sheffield to Birmingham on the other hand makes sense in that it improves regional connectivity, frees up space for more stopping services and if suitable connection is added in Birmingham can accelerate long distance XC services.

 

On the other hand if Leeds was dropped from HS2 as a destination from London that would free up slots for trains to Nottingham and Derby proper and get over the criticism of East Midlands Parkway having to be the hub for both cities.

 

Sheffield Derby and Nottingham to London works because it gets round capacity constraints on the MML, including the cramped 4 platformed St Pancras.

 

An HS2 line as far as Trent Junction would still bring big benefits to to travellers between Sheffield and London - though it wouldn't be as good for regional links as having HS2 extend up towards Sheffield.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by phil-b259

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Weirdly enough though having completed phase one makes further phases more likely to happen!

 

There was zero point in providing more capacity between Birmingham and Manchester if the trains were unable to reach London. Dito the East and West Midlands - if you wanted to kill the HS2 project then its the London bit you needed to get scrapped.

 

What I can see happening is that expansion will take place more slowly than previously envisaged - again observing what the French did is a very good idea as to how this may play out as the original Paris to Lyon route was gradually extended southwards.

 

Crewe - Manchester / Wigan I can see being put on the back burner as you have already achieved quite a lot in terms of by-passing the existing WCML and the potential synergies with a potential new Trans-Pennine route cannot be ignored.

 

On the other hand I could see parts of the eastern branch be bought forward - phase one will leave a ready built literally ending in a field near Lichfield and extending that towards the East Midlands (with connections to existing routes to Derby and Nottingham added as opposed to terminating at Toton)  ticks an awful lot of boxes politically and practically with a relatively modest outlay.

 

 

Indeed - but what lots of people seem to forget is we are around a decade away from starting construction of phase 2b (Crewe - Manchester / Wigan) and phase 3 (eastern leg) so there is in fact plenty of time to wait and see what happens to post Covid travel demand anyway!

 

You cannot scrap work on something that has not yet started (and the bulk of the money will spent in building the thing) - while the work that has been done so far on phase 2 / 3 provides a valuable starting point when / if the next phases are considered worth pursuing.

Mood music is currently the other way round.  There is momentum behind Crewe-Manchester, not least because it also gives half of a new route between Manchester and Liverpool.  The eastern leg is more difficult to make work - it misses Derby and Nottingham, Sheffield can only be served b y a long diversion off route, and as you mention the indirect route means the journey time from London to Leeds and beyond not much better than via the ECML.  

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As I have said before Leeds to London via Birmingham doesn't offer any time advantages - its only real selling point is to get round capacity constraints on the ECML

 

Leeds to Birmingham or Sheffield to Birmingham on the other hand makes sense in that it improves regional connectivity, frees up space for more stopping services and if suitable connection is added in Birmingham can accelerate long distance XC services.

 

On the other hand if Leeds was dropped from HS2 as a destination from London that would free up slots for trains to Nottingham and Derby proper and get over the criticism of East Midlands Parkway having to be the hub for both cities.

 

Sheffield Derby and Nottingham to London works because it gets round capacity constraints on the MML, including the cramped 4 platformed St Pancras.

 

An HS2 line as far as Trent Junction would still bring big benefits to to travellers between Sheffield and London - though it wouldn't be as good for regional links as having HS2 extend up towards Sheffield.

That is the thinking behind the latest proposals - keep London-Leeds/Newcastle on the ECML and spend the money on regional links such as NPR instead.  But it won't relieve St Pancras, as something very close to the existing MML service is needed to serve the stations south of Derby and Nottingham that don't benefit from HS2.   

[phil-b259]

47 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

 But it won't relieve St Pancras, as something very close to the existing MML service is needed to serve the stations south of Derby and Nottingham that don't benefit from HS2.   

 

But it could.

 

The point is the MML is full! you cannot run any more services even though operators would very much like to do so!

 

So, if you are no longer sending HS2 trains to Leeds / Newcastle that creates spare slots for trains terminating elsewhere doesn't it?

 

Add in links to the existing network south of Toton and voila! you now are able to serve Nottingham and Derby city centres with HS2! - plus providing them (and the likes of Chesterfield / Sheffield) with MORE trains to and from London.

 

Having done that you also no longer need to run express services from Derby, Chesterfield , Sheffield or Nottingham to London via the MML (there is a case for running slower services so as to maintain connectivity and avoid an enforced train swap at Derby for passengers from Leicester to Sheffield say).

 

Instead you can alter calling patterns and run an express service from express services from St Pancras to Leicester say!

 

Therefore overall the viability of HS2s eastern leg can, with a few alterations* be just as good (if not better) than the final bit from Crewe to Manchester / Wigan

 

 

* Dump the section north of Sheffield (or Toton) to Leeds and add in connections to the MML.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

30 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Mood music is currently the other way round.  There is momentum behind Crewe-Manchester, not least because it also gives half of a new route between Manchester and Liverpool. 

 

 

Not quite sure how it would help with Liverpool - if you have to do two sides of a triangle between Manchester and Liverpool its not going to be that much faster than going direct via the Chat Moss route say. It also requires a time consuming reversal reversal in Manchester.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

But it could.

 

The point is the MML is full! you cannot run any more services even though operators would very much like to do so!

 

So, if you are no longer sending HS2 trains to Leeds / Newcastle that creates spare slots for trains terminating elsewhere doesn't it?

 

Add in links to the existing network south of Toton and voila! you now are able to serve Nottingham and Derby city centres with HS2! - plus providing them (and the likes of Chesterfield / Sheffield) with MORE trains to and from London.

 

Having done that you also no longer need to run express services from Derby, Chesterfield , Sheffield or Nottingham to London via the MML (there is a case for running slower services so as to maintain connectivity and avoid an enforced train swap at Derby for passengers from Leicester to Sheffield say).

 

Instead you can alter calling patterns and run an express service from express services from St Pancras to Leicester say!

 

Therefore overall the viability of HS2s eastern leg can, with a few alterations* be just as good (if not better) than the final bit from Crewe to Manchester / Wigan

 

 

* Dump the section north of Sheffield (or Toton) to Leeds and add in connections to the MML.

 

You are right that removing trains to Leeds and Newcastle would make room for trains from London to Nottingham and possibly other destinations.  Derby would also get through HS2 service from London because the Sheffield trains would use that route.  

 

However stations between St Pancras and Loughborough don't benefit, and still need a reasonable service which dictates that service level out of St Pancras will remain as it is now.  In the 2022 EMR timetable there are two non-stop trains per hour St Pancras to Leicester (continuing to Sheffield) plus two serving some intermediate stations (continuing to Nottingham).  Further north there is still need for reasonable service between Leicester and Derby/Nottingham so again this will remain at current levels, raising some questions about capacity at Trent.  So the service on the MML south of Nottingham/Derby is essentially unchanged.  

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Not quite sure how it would help with Liverpool - if you have to do two sides of a triangle between Manchester and Liverpool its not going to be that much faster than going direct via the Chat Moss route say. It also requires a time consuming reversal reversal in Manchester.

The HS2 line from Crewe splits for Manchester and Golborne.  Somewhere beyond this on the Manchester leg there would be a trailing junction (as seen approaching from Crewe) with a line coming in from Liverpool.  The exact route is under investigation and still to be announced, and it's unclear if it would go all the way to the city centre.  But it would allow trains from Liverpool to run to Piccadilly, calling at the Airport HS2 station, without reversing.  Although there's a proposal to make Piccadilly a through station with a tunnel under the city centre, it's more likely that Liverpool-Leeds trains would just reverse at new platforms to the north of the existing station and continue eastwards on another route to be determined.  The route is a bit longer but much faster, avoids the slow and congested routes across Manchester and allows the airport to be served directly.  With slick operation (such as having a replacement driver waiting where the rear cab will stop) reversal at Piccadilly wouldn't take much longer than a normal station stop.  

 

To complete the picture, a south to west curve would allow trains from London to use the new route into Liverpool as well.  

 

More details, to the extent of what is publically available, on the link below:

https://transportforthenorth.com/northern-powerhouse-rail/

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Edwin_m

[JeffP]

Just reading up again, and I've noticed quite a few referrals to lines being full.

Forgive me if this is ridiculous, but isn't that the fault of the rail operators, who replaced ten, eleven, coach and longer trains, which could even be strengthened when needed, with, first eight coach, now five coach FIXED formations?

They then ran more frequent trains, effectively using up the pathing?

[Ron Ron Ron]

I've seen artist's graphic images showing a proposed below ground HS2 station at Piccadilly, as opposed to the current plan for an elevated station, alongside the existing Piccadilly station.

What I've not read is any discussion or suggestion that a parallel double deck station might be a possible solution, with the NPR through platforms at the lower, below ground level.

The southern approach tracks having diverged into high (terminus) and low (NPR through platforms), where they emerge from the long tunnel into the city centre.

 

A little bit like Berlin Hauptbahnhof , but vertically parallel tracks.

 

 

.

 

[Fenman]

7 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I've seen artist's graphic images showing a proposed below ground HS2 station at Piccadilly, as opposed to the current plan for an elevated station, alongside the existing Piccadilly station.

What I've not read is any discussion or suggestion that a parallel double deck station might be a possible solution, with the NPR through platforms at the lower, below ground level.

The southern approach tracks having diverged into high (terminus) and low (NPR through platforms), where they emerge from the long tunnel into the city centre.

 

A little bit like Berlin Hauptbahnhof , but vertically parallel tracks.

 

 

 

A sort of upside-down Portsmouth & Southsea?!

 

Paul

[Arun Sharma]

23 hours ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

"After the black death society didn't stop it took time to recover but still moved forward as it was or similar to before. 18 months pent up demand for expression and freedom, I am optimistic we will return to normality eventually, history tells us that."

I fear not. After the black death in 1384, Society did not revert to normal. The death of between 20 and 40% of the working population spelt the de facto end of the feudal age for all time in England. The shortage of manpower in fields meant that for the first time ever in England, a peasant could charge for his labours  and the 'lords of the manors' had little choice but to pay the going rate - either that or plough their fields themselves. That's not to say that the peasants didn't still have obligations like going to war for their liege lord as locally raised yeomanry but no longer were they serfs. And the rest, as they say, is history.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, JeffP said:

Just reading up again, and I've noticed quite a few referrals to lines being full.

Forgive me if this is ridiculous, but isn't that the fault of the rail operators, who replaced ten, eleven, coach and longer trains, which could even be strengthened when needed, with, first eight coach, now five coach FIXED formations?

They then ran more frequent trains, effectively using up the pathing?

 

Rail operators provide the service levels people want!

 

We are not living in the 1950s - people EXPECT frequent trains and not to have to fit their entire day around catching the one or two express services on offer.

 

Evidence PROVES that a more frequent service attracts more users - the psychological angle of having a turn up and go train service cannot be ignored.

 

Thats before you get to the way society has moved to a more fluid one - people no longer work 9-5 nor do they work close to home both of which mean the peaks in demand are not as logical as you might assume, particularly with advance purchase cheap ticketing

 

It is simply not practical to have a station pilot fussing round adding or subtracting stock in the 30 minute turn rounds - fixed formations for InterCity operations (as introduced by British Rail with the extremely successful HST I add) are essential to meet the demands for a frequent train service.

 

The limitation on InterCity and most outer suburban services as you approach London is physical.

 

The WCML is operated by 11 or 9 car Pendalinos throughout the day (and note that you cannot physically fit 11 car Pendalinos in all platforms at WCML termi. Similarly when you got closer to London, outer suburban operations were similarly maxed out at 8 or 12 car EMUs at the busiest times.

 

Meanwhile the MML is mainly operated by 8 car HSTs or two Meridan units coupled to give a 9 car train (though some 7 car Meridan units are in use at slacker times. These are the maximum length trains that can fit into the platforms - you should take note that the new bi-mode units for the MML will use shorter bodyshells than the GWR and ECML variants precisely so a 10 car train can still fit in St Pancras!

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by phil-b259

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I've seen artist's graphic images showing a proposed below ground HS2 station at Piccadilly, as opposed to the current plan for an elevated station, alongside the existing Piccadilly station.

What I've not read is any discussion or suggestion that a parallel double deck station might be a possible solution, with the NPR through platforms at the lower, below ground level.

The southern approach tracks having diverged into high (terminus) and low (NPR through platforms), where they emerge from the long tunnel into the city centre.

 

A little bit like Berlin Hauptbahnhof , but vertically parallel tracks.

 

 

.

 

I believe the main station in Antwerpen/Anvers is to this sort of design.