HS2

[Zomboid]

38 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Chalfont  is a fine example of good building its a pity the style of housing and layout has not been kept going as modern building is now a pack em in mentality with the houses resembling matchboxes.

That's pretty much everywhere these days. Though especially in the south east where land is expensive. 

 

Though I used to live in a 2007 built house - it had a tiny footprint, but was very spacious inside. Nice modern architecture too, none of this pretend old nonsense that you see on a lot of developments.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Or the person in Surrey who moved in next to a farm and complained about the smells.

Jonathan

Or the person that moved next to the Great Central (in preservation) and complained about the train noise.

Or the person that moved next to Birmingham Airport and complained about the plane noise.

etc. etc. etc.

 

Or those that bought new flats next door to the Fiddle & Bone pub in Brum (It did music, hence the name) and managed to get it's licence revoked.

Edited June 20, 2021 by melmerby

[Northmoor]

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Or the person that moved next to the Great Central (in preservation) and complained about the train noise.

Or the person that moved next to Birmingham Airport and complained about the plane noise.

etc. etc. etc.

 

Or those that bought new flats next door to the Fiddle & Bone pub in Brum (It did music, hence the name) and managed to get it's licence revoked.

The best example I read of was noise complaints by residents of Castle Donington.  Apparently when they came to look at the house and the area, they failed to spot the race circuit, East Midland Airport and the M1.

[corneliuslundie]

Perhaps they bought the house on the internet without seeing it - apparently getting quite common - including next door but one to me I hear.

Sorry, I have taken this far too far off topic.

But a valid comment that once HS2 is complete and the worksites have been cleared up, give it a few years and many people in the constituency will have forgotten it's there.

Jonathan

[Pete the Elaner]

52 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The best example I read of was noise complaints by residents of Castle Donington.  Apparently when they came to look at the house and the area, they failed to spot the race circuit, East Midland Airport and the M1.

 

So how did they get there if they didn't use the M1 or A42?

 

That trumps a couple who moved near to Mildenhall Speedway. For those who have never been (most of you), it is in the middle of nowhere, about 2 miles from the nearest village. The couple in question bought a house which can only be accessed from a road which runs right past the speedway track which is behind a red corrugated fence at least 10' high & 150 yards long. It is tempting to say "you can't miss it" but you can miss anything, but if you do miss it, your eyesight & observation is inadequate to drive.
Wouldn't you wonder what was behind it? wonder what was behind it. When driving towards their house, they pass the car park first, at the entrance of which is a large tractor tyre with "Welcome to Mildenhall Speedway" on it.

There is more.

It is on the flight path for aircraft taking off from RAF Mildenhall. These include the G5 Galaxy class which are huge transporter quad jets, bigger than 747s. When these take off, you can't hear the racing.

They successfully got a noise abatement order slapped on the Speedway track.

They moved to Mildenhall after complaining about the noise in their previous area. That was a place in west Essex called Stansted!

[GoingUnderground]

17 hours ago, lmsforever said:

From Amersham onwards towards London is a built up area 

Your knowledge of the area will be far more up to date than mine as it is some years since I was last in that area by car or train, but as I remember it, solid suburbia only really starts at Moor Park. There are built up areas around Rickmansworth (extending to Croxley and Watford) and down towards Denham, and towards Chorleywood, but from Chorleywood to Little Chalfont there are open fields. Little Chalfont does seem to flow into the area around Amersham station. Amersham Old Town is down in the valley below the Met station/Metroland area. But outside of the areas that I've mentioned there isn't the same horizon to horizon housing as you get in the rest of Metroland south of Moor Park. 

[Mike Storey]

Perhaps we ought to be pointing out, to anyone who will listen, that HS2 is spending hundreds of millions, perhaps a billion or three (above budget in most cases) towards noise alleviation, whether it be extra length tunnels or cuttings, or noise barriers.

 

For sure, there needs to be mitigation where needed, but the original EIA did not envisage the extent to which both political and some activist pressure has required so many extra measures. When one looks at HS1, and the sheer lack of any complaints about noise or disturbance, I could cry.

[Northmoor]

The problem with noise normally, is that people react to change (increased volume, duration or both).  What is interesting is when this coincides with changes in the complainants' own circumstances.

 

Local to me in Farnborough 20-25 years ago, the airfield ceased to be used for military flight testing and became a commercial airport, increasingly used by business jets which were more frequent but considerably quieter than the military trials aircraft.  Many of the complaints seemed to be by retired people, who now they were at home most of the day, objected to the low flying aircraft that had been passing over their houses for years, but they were normally out at work during the day.  Many of them would have been at work in some of the local aerospace industry which fed off the active airfield, but apparently to the complainants that industry shouldn't be allowed to thrive now that they had no need of employment in it or benefit from it.

 

There was also a sneaking suspicion, not entirely disguised by excuses that they'd tolerated it while there was important military work going on, supporting defence of the realm, etc., of an inverse snobbery and resentment about rich people in private jets.

 

Is it ironic that I should bring up this example of complaints about an environmentally wasteful mode of transport in the HS2 thread.........?  Perhaps not, when so much of the criticism is based on, "Rich Businessmen Getting to their Pointless Meetings Five Minutes Quicker".  I often wonder how they decide these meetings are pointless.  I'm certain that if the average HS2 protester was chairing the meeting, it would be.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The “interactive route map” on the HS2 web site isn’t being updated regularly and proving to be a bit useless.

 

It showed the first TBM, Florence, to be a 15 metres or so into its tunnelling, a day or two after setting off.

Then it took another10 days until 4th June, before the next update showed that the TBM was 150 metres in.

Today is the 22nd, 18 days on and no update has been posted.

 

HS2 say that the average rate of tunnelling progress would be around 15 metres per day, so if the rate of progress has been steady, with no hold ups, Florence should be getting close to half a kilometre into its dig already.

Only another 16 km to go……

 

 

.

[lmsforever]

How long before some idiot claims the tunnelling is causing his to shake,or minor earthquakes are ocurring  plus they have heard that its not for trains but listening device  to eavesdrop othier converstions !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zomboid]

9 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

. When one looks at HS1, and the sheer lack of any complaints about noise or disturbance, I could cry.

A brief look at the places which HS1 runs through in comparison to HS2 explains that. The Nimbies of Gravesend are clearly not as well connected as those of Buckinghamshire. Plus there's a station at Ebbesfleet which would have helped sell the project and direct benefits to the people of that area.

 

I wonder if 4 tracking HS2 and providing a couple more stations (let's say near the M25 and somewhere near MK) would have had the same response. Obviously some people would be against it whatever happened, but a "slow' service along the southern end might have resulted in less of that and consequently fewer mitigations.

[DY444]

18 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Is it ironic that I should bring up this example of complaints about an environmentally wasteful mode of transport in the HS2 thread.........?  Perhaps not, when so much of the criticism is based on, "Rich Businessmen Getting to their Pointless Meetings Five Minutes Quicker".  I often wonder how they decide these meetings are pointless.  I'm certain that if the average HS2 protester was chairing the meeting, it would be.

 

It's an ongoing part of the wholly flawed assumption in many quarters that railways are exclusively used by people travelling to/from or in connection with work.  Covid seems to have rendered a surprisingly large number of supposedly intelligent people incapable of rational thought whilst at the same time giving them infallible insight into travel patterns for the next five decades.  Add in a big dose of hypocrisy such as supposedly green organisations opposing electrified railways and well heeled home counties residents criticising HS2 whilst praising TGV, ICE etc and you have a lot of noise but not much reasoned argument. 

 

Chiltern NIMBYs were always going to be a problem but Phase 1 is too far gone and they can't stop it, they know they can't stop it and the increased fuss now is akin to a lamp shining brightest right before it fails.  I doubt those more than a few hundred yards away from the line will notice it at all once it's open.

Edited June 22, 2021 by DY444

[boxbrownie]

Funny thing is with true high speed trains (whether HS2 will fall into this category or not?) is they aren’t that noisy at all, I was amazed one time we stopped at a French autoroute stop and part of it was a viewing area for the TGV line, we were only maybe 20 metres from the line when an TGV went past, it was just a whoosh of air and muffled “rail noise” for about just five seconds, and gone......no noise of it coming or going at all really, certainly nothing like normal commuter trains let alone freight movements.

[GoingUnderground]

6 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Funny thing is with true high speed trains (whether HS2 will fall into this category or not?) is they aren’t that noisy at all, I was amazed one time we stopped at a French autoroute stop and part of it was a viewing area for the TGV line, we were only maybe 20 metres from the line when an TGV went past, it was just a whoosh of air and muffled “rail noise” for about just five seconds, and gone......no noise of it coming or going at all really, certainly nothing like normal commuter trains let alone freight movements.

I've never heard a TGV, ICE, Eurostar or Javelin pass by with the "pedal to the metal", but I'm not too surprised that they are relatively quiet. Much if it will be down to the aerodynamics. Most EMUs and diesel locos have the aerodynamics of a house brick and will inevitably create more air noise than their speed would suggest. Diesel locos are noisy beasts, but electric motors make very little noise as their derive their power from magnetism, not igniting a highly pressurised hydrocarbon fuel air mixture. Ever heard of a noisy magnet? Neither have I. Remember, back in the days of the trolleybus they used to be called "the silent death" because folks couldn't hear them coming over the ambient streeet noise and walked out in front of them without looking. I suppose we'll be back to those scenarios one day soon as fully electric cars become more commmon.

 

As I've said before on this thread, I used to live within 20 metres of the 6 track part of the WCML in London, and the predominant sound from the line was .......... silence, interspersed with the very short burst of noise from the Inter City services and outer suburban services going past. The Class 501 and Bakerloo '38 stock, and when they were replaced the Silverlink Class 313s could be heard but they were hardly intrusive. The adjoining main road was far worse for noise generation as the roar of passing traffic was virtually continuous from 7 in the morning to 8 at night.  Most of the time you forgot that the line was so close.

Edited June 22, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

 Remember, back in the days of the trolleybus they used to be called "the silent death" because folks couldn't hear them coming over the ambient streeet noise and walked out in front of them without looking. I suppose we'll be back to those scenarios one day soon as fully electric cars become more commmon.

I still happens here in Nottingham with trams. It mostly seems to be students, who are presumably new to the area and not used to the things creeping up on you fairly silently in areas otherwise free from traffic. 

[Foulounoux]

11 hours ago, Zomboid said:

A brief look at the places which HS1 runs through in comparison to HS2 explains that. The Nimbies of Gravesend are clearly not as well connected as those of Buckinghamshire. Plus there's a station at Ebbesfleet which would have helped sell the project and direct benefits to the people of that area.

 

I wonder if 4 tracking HS2 and providing a couple more stations (let's say near the M25 and somewhere near MK) would have had the same response. Obviously some people would be against it whatever happened, but a "slow' service along the southern end might have resulted in less of that and consequently fewer mitigations.

 

 

I recall there were lots of objections to HS1.  With the M20 so close to much of the route some were clearly ridiculous,the objectors being the other side of the M20 to the line.

 

Once operating though the lack of impact compared to the motorway became apparent especially given the increase in M20 traffic.

 

 

 

[RJS1977]

9 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

 Add in a big dose of hypocrisy such as supposedly green organisations opposing electrified railways and well heeled home counties residents criticising HS2 whilst praising TGV, ICE etc and you have a lot of noise but not much reasoned argument. 

 

 

Hitting the nail right on the head there. I can remember when I used to commute by train hearing people saying "Why can't we have high speed railways like the French and the Japanese?" - and now we're building one, people don't want it!

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Hitting the nail right on the head there. I can remember when I used to commute by train hearing people saying "Why can't we have high speed railways like the French and the Japanese?" - and now we're building one, people don't want it!

"Because you're prioritising every last pound of unearned capital gain on your house than the good of the nation?"

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I've never heard a TGV, ICE, Eurostar or Javelin pass by with the "pedal to the metal", but I'm not too surprised that they are relatively quiet. Much if it will be down to the aerodynamics. Most EMUs and diesel locos have the aerodynamics of a house brick and will inevitably create more air noise than their speed would suggest. Diesel locos are noisy beasts, but electric motors make very little noise as their derive their power from magnetism, not igniting a highly pressurised hydrocarbon fuel air mixture. Ever heard of a noisy magnet? Neither have I. Remember, back in the days of the trolleybus they used to be called "the silent death" because folks couldn't hear them coming over the ambient streeet noise and walked out in front of them without looking. I suppose we'll be back to those scenarios one day soon as fully electric cars become more commmon.

 

As I've said before on this thread, I used to live within 20 metres of the 6 track part of the WCML in London, and the predominant sound from the line was .......... silence, interspersed with the very short burst of noise from the Inter City services and outer suburban services going past. The Class 501 and Bakerloo '38 stock, and when they were replaced the Silverlink Class 313s could be heard but they were hardly intrusive. The adjoining main road was far worse for noise generation as the roar of passing traffic was virtually continuous from 7 in the morning to 8 at night.  Most of the time you forgot that the line was so close.

I used to live within 50 yards (actually 5 yards of the carriage sidings) of the Liverpool St line at Shenfield, five lines in all and yes most of the “noise” was absent most of the time, but when a freight did roll past the glasses in our cabinet used to rattle, and you could hear the empty freight liner chassis rattle a long time before they arrived…and after 

 

I absolutely loved it……

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Hitting the nail right on the head there. I can remember when I used to commute by train hearing people saying "Why can't we have high speed railways like the French and the Japanese?" - and now we're building one, people don't want it!

 

Is it possible that they are different people? The people on trains will discern a benefit from high speed rail. All the people moaning see is that their view might be slightly altered to no benefit to themselves (Yes, I know more rail capacity etc.  but that doesn't wash with the man on the Chiternmouth-Nimby SUV)

[GoingUnderground]

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I still happens here in Nottingham with trams. It mostly seems to be students, who are presumably new to the area and not used to the things creeping up on you fairly silently in areas otherwise free from traffic. 

The warning bells make enough noise though. and I suspect it is the fact that  most of the time the tracks are unoccupied that makes folks treat the "traffic free" areas with just trams as a pedestrian area.

[GoingUnderground]

On 11/06/2021 at 20:51, Northmoor said:

Thank you @Zomboidand @Ron Ron Ron for supporting my point.  Sleeper trains, except for some very "high-end luxury" services, are a dead concept in Europe.  The Caledonian Sleeper only survives thanks to some (both overt and covert) subsidy from the Scottish Government.

 

The economics of sleeper trains don't stack up because the carriages can only be used for a single journey each day; you can't complete the journey, turf out the sleeping passengers and start the return journey at 3am.  They're not much use as daytime carriages either; ignoring the fact they are not designed for "seating", you would be lucky to fit 20 paying passengers in per carriage.  A conventional seating coach of the same size will seat 60-80 passengers and might be able to do more than one return journey each day (consider what WCML and ECML sets do daily).  So potentially instead of earning you 240 passenger journeys per day, the sleeper coach will only earn one twelfth of that and probably cost 50% more to build than the seating coach as well.

Well, there is a report in the papers today 22 June 2021, that a new company called Midnight Trains is looking to run a network of sleeper services to/from Paris  https://www.midnight-trains.com/en/story. with the first route opening in 2024 and presumably the rest on their map will follow in due course one of which will be to/from Edinburgh.

 

Now there's a thought, a link from one part of the EU (Scotland, assuming the Scots get their referendum and vote "Yes" to Leave and rejoin the EU) to another, France, running through England. Will the trains be sealed so that no one can gain access to England via the "back door"?

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

 

 

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