HS2

[frobisher]

18 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Will the trains be sealed so that no one can gain access to England via the "back door"?

 

I think you might have the reason for the sealed door the wrong way around

[jamie92208]

The HS2 website may not have updated Florence's  progress but there is a good article about her and Cecilia in the new Modern Railways with some good detail about how they work. Also an explanation for the delayed start of Cecilia. Apparently  Highways England didn't want both machines under the M25 at the same time. There's  also a good photo taken on  the 1st of June showing Florence's  tail nearly into the tunnel.

 

As an aside I really think that HS2 are missing a trick by not updating the information regularly.  Somewhere I have the map that I updated each week that showed the progress of the Channel tunnel TBM's . Technology has come on but that phone line worked well.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

My email to HS2 about the lack of updates on their site must have stirred them into action.  As of today Florence has now advanced 360 metres.

 

Jamie

[JeffP]

Just goes to show, some people do read emails.

Out of interest, do you get many responses to emails in France?

Edited July 1, 2021 by JeffP

[Ron Ron Ron]

15 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

.....As of today Florence has now advanced 360 metres.

 

 

The last update on 4th June said the distance tunnelled was 150 metres, after 21 days.

So if this update is accurate**, Florence has only progressed another 210 metres in the 26 days since then.

 

(**n.b. It's possible the PR department who run the website, may have out of date info?)

 

360 metres in 47 days is only an average of less than 8 metres per day.

HS2 said that the average rate of progress would be 15 metres per day

 

The 16km distance of these bores are due to be completed in 3 years, but if the current rate of progress isn't improved, this particular tunnel will take over 5.5 years to complete !!!

That's a 2.5 year or longer overrun !

 

 

If the website data does turn out to be duff ...and in reality, Florence is now progressing at or close to the 15 metres per day stated, then (even allowing for a weeks initial slow start up) the TBM should be between 600 and 650 metres in by now.

 

Mmmm?

I suggest you query their update, Jamie.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Better news...

Today, the 2nd TBM, Cecilia has commenced its dig.....

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

The competition to win the contract for the first batch of HS2 trains, is becoming further mired in legal challenges.

 

Following Talgo's lawsuits, earlier this year, which have resulted in HS2 paying an out-of-court settlement, now Siemens have filed claims against HS2.

 

The list of bidders is now down to 3, from the original 5 chosen. Press rumours are saying  that the Bombadier/Hitachi joint bid is tipped to win..

 

 

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/second-train-manufacturer-launches-legal-action-over-hs2s-rolling-stock-procurement-01-07-2021/

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/07/01/hs2-hit-second-legal-challenge-28bn-train-contract/   (behind a paywall)

 

https://www.cityam.com/hs2-faces-new-legal-challenge-from-siemens-over-2-8bn-contract/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[ess1uk]

8 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The last update on 4th June said the distance tunnelled was 150 metres, after 21 days.

So if this update is accurate**, Florence has only progressed another 210 metres in the 26 days since then.

 

(**n.b. It's possible the PR department who run the website, may have out of date info?)

 

360 metres in 47 days is only an average of less than 8 metres per day.

HS2 said that the average rate of progress would be 15 metres per day

 

The 16km distance of these bores are due to be completed in 3 years, but if the current rate of progress isn't improved, this particular tunnel will take over 5.5 years to complete !!!

That's a 2.5 year or longer overrun !

 

 

If the website data does turn out to be duff ...and in reality, Florence is now progressing at or close to the 15 metres per day stated, then (even allowing for a weeks initial slow start up) the TBM should be between 600 and 650 metres in by now.

 

Mmmm?

I suggest you query their update, Jamie.

 

 

.

Is it possible that it’s going slow under the M25 and then might speed up?

 

[ess1uk]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The competition to win the contract for the first batch of HS2 trains, is becoming further mired in legal challenges.

 

Following Talgo's lawsuits, earlier this year, which have resulted in HS2 paying an out-of-court settlement, now Siemens have filed claims against HS2.

 

The list of bidders is now down to 3, from the original 5 chosen. Press rumours are saying  that the Bombadier/Hitachi joint bid is tipped to win..

 

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/second-train-manufacturer-launches-legal-action-over-hs2s-rolling-stock-procurement-01-07-2021/

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/07/01/hs2-hit-second-legal-challenge-28bn-train-contract/   (behind a paywall)

 

https://www.cityam.com/hs2-faces-new-legal-challenge-from-siemens-over-2-8bn-contract/

 

Bombardier is now Alstom so how does that work when they are both bidding?

[Northmoor]

21 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Bombardier is now Alstom so how does that work when they are both bidding?

It's very common for major suppliers to be part of more than one consortium but they will have to run completely fire-walled bid teams.  As a consultant I once supported the MoD review team while four sets of colleagues  (conveniently located in four geographically separate offices) acted as advisors to each of the four bid teams.

For Bombardier/Alstom it obviously allows them to hedge their bets.

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Is it possible that it’s going slow under the M25 and then might speed up?

 

 

The very start would probably be slow, while they established the initial tunnel bore and monitored the machine in actual live operation..

The tunnel segment installation process would also have to be monitored and possibly fettled too.

 

However, there may be something in the M25 issue, as the start for the 2nd TBM (Cecilia) was delayed, as Highways England didn't want both TBM's working under the motorway at the same time.

Cecilia is supposed to eventually catch up with Florence, which started 7 weeks ahead and they are due to emerge at the other end, round about the same time (plus or minus).

 

The HS2 PR machine isn't that hot with ongoing updates.

Their social media feeds, mostly just rehash the same stories and often use photos that are weeks, or months out of date.

Although if there's an event, milestone or story they want to promote, they're usually quick of the mark then.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the info they receive on tunnelling progress, is limited or out of date.

After all, it did take them nearly 3 weeks to produce the first update on Florence's progress and another 26 days to post the latest one.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

26 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Bombardier is now Alstom so how does that work when they are both bidding?

 

The merger occurred quite a while after the respective companies had submitted their bids and were chosen to be on the shortlist of 5.

 

The fact that HS2 didn't take into account that the subsequently merged company ended up having 2 of the bids in play, was one of the legal challenges that Talgo made in the courts earlier this year.

Siemens, who have also failed to make it into the final 3, may bring this particular issue up in their legal case against HS2.

 

The 3 remaining companies in the race are CAF, Alstom and the Bombardier/Hitachi joint bid.

 

 

.

[Pandora]

7 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The merger occurred quite a while after the respective companies had submitted their bids and were chosen to be on the shortlist of 5.

 

The fact that HS2 didn't take into account that the subsequently merged company ended up having 2 of the bids in play, was one of the legal challenges that Talgo made in the courts earlier this year.

Siemens, who have also failed to make it into the final 3, may bring this particular issue up in their legal case against HS2.

 

The 3 remaining companies in the race are CAF, Alstom and the Bombardier/Hitachi joint bid.

 

 

.

Even the  rolling stock tendering process is flawed, the legal settlements are costing  money, what is going to be the next expensive error?

[Ron Ron Ron]

HS2's Willesden logistics site, on the site of the old disused freight terminal, is now in operation.

 

The old tracks and sidings were removed and new sidings and hardstandings have been installed.

Spoil from the OOC site is brought here for onward transportation by rail.

 

Back in December 2020

 

 

 

 

Moving on to July 2021........

 

 

 

 

Old Oak Common is in the distance, close to the tall buildings in the centre and to the left of the orange excavator, in this photo.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[JeffP]

I don't suppose it's possible that the stated tunnel yardage was for both machines?

ie: Florence PLUS Cecilia?

[corneliuslundie]

That first photo in July 2021 could be a model. The wagons are FAR too clean to be the real thing.

(But probably not for long)

Jonathan

[Mike Storey]

On 01/07/2021 at 23:59, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The merger occurred quite a while after the respective companies had submitted their bids and were chosen to be on the shortlist of 5.

 

The fact that HS2 didn't take into account that the subsequently merged company ended up having 2 of the bids in play, was one of the legal challenges that Talgo made in the courts earlier this year.

Siemens, who have also failed to make it into the final 3, may bring this particular issue up in their legal case against HS2.

 

The 3 remaining companies in the race are CAF, Alstom and the Bombardier/Hitachi joint bid.

 

 

.

 

Tricky one this. Apart from the mist in which the Bombardier part of the Hitachi bid sits (given that some parts of Bombardier and Alstom have to be sold as part of the merger deal with the EU Competition authority), it is no longer clear under which laws the challenges are being made, even if the circumstances of the validity of the claims may be provable under the conditions on which the tenders were originally offered.

 

HS2 had to agree a settlement out of court whilst EU law clearly applied. But now? EU law still technically applies, simply because it has not yet been changed, so maybe that will determine matters.

 

But I foresee a change coming soon (especially with Labour's Buy British initiative, however flawed or not). So maybe HS2 would be better off cancelling the process and starting again when the law is clearer? It is apparent that Phase 1 opening is delayed, so there is time. It is apparent that "national interest" is mentally back in play, and that can include loading the dice. Whether that works in an international business, in which UK orders are a fairly minor part, remains to be seen.

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

......So maybe HS2 would be better off cancelling the process and starting again when the law is clearer?

It is apparent that Phase 1 opening is delayed, so there is time. It is apparent that "national interest" is mentally back in play, and that can include loading the dice. .......

 

 

Maybe it's too late to cancel, as the procurement process is virtually complete and awaiting a decision.

It may be cheaper to pay off the "losers", than to restart the whole thing again, at much greater cost.

 

In any case, cancelling might spark off a wave of lawsuits from all the bidders who have been involved and end up being very politically and financially embarrassing.

 

 

.

[Mike Storey]

On 05/07/2021 at 19:09, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Maybe it's too late to cancel, as the procurement process is virtually complete and awaiting a decision.

It may be cheaper to pay off the "losers", than to restart the whole thing again, at much greater cost.

 

In any case, cancelling might spark off a wave of lawsuits from all the bidders who have been involved and end up being very politically and financially embarrassing.

 

 

.

 

 

I can see your point in terms of the costs of re-tendering, and such challenges to the outcomes of rolling stock tendering processes are by no means unique to HS2. Germany, in particular, has suffered many legal challenges to the decisions taken by Lander and by DBAG. 

 

But, the court documents (which, when believing the Talgo challenge would end up court) state that HS2, and Talgo, wanted the hearing brought forward, due to the need to meet the planned opening date of Phase 1 in 2028. But every forecast I have seen since then states completion between 2029 and 2033. So, one can only assume there is time.

 

Further, with the Alstom/Bombardier merger, there are significant complications, which I am not sure are clearly dealt with in the ITT.  In particular, the Hitachi bid presumably relies on the use of their NE assembly plant, whereas Bombardier have a manufacturing plant in Derby, now available to Alstom, although that is not to say they would use it. How do you sort that out? Given the Alstom TGV-M is now so far in advance of anything else yet available, in terms of efficiency, capacity and cost (per seat), but would probably be largely built in La Rochelle, I can see a very difficult situation emerging - whoever loses in Stage 5 is still going to court over something or other.

 

Thus, perhaps better to bite the bullet now?

[pete_mcfarlane]

22 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

But, the court documents (which, when believing the Talgo challenge would end up court) state that HS2, and Talgo, wanted the hearing brought forward, due to the need to meet the planned opening date of Phase 1 in 2028. But every forecast I have seen since then states completion between 2029 and 2033. So, one can only assume there is time.

Are there two distinct dates here - when they want the trains delivered, and when the line opens to the public? Presumably there will need to be a gap between the two dates to allow trial running. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by pete_mcfarlane

[Grovenor]

A very long gap if they use the Crossrail methodology!

[jamie92208]

That was about a year for the new TGV line near me and that was using proven existing trains.

 

Jamie

[JohnH]

https://news4trafford.co.uk/2021/07/07/hs2-paused-for-the-north-until-government-publishes-an-integrated-rail-plan/?fbclid=IwAR1QtogPenaL8LC6JjWZ2s_MKj8F6gtUTtEml-w9T-HHlBh-p2bHNP6mprk

[Edwin_m]

19 minutes ago, JohnH said:

https://news4trafford.co.uk/2021/07/07/hs2-paused-for-the-north-until-government-publishes-an-integrated-rail-plan/?fbclid=IwAR1QtogPenaL8LC6JjWZ2s_MKj8F6gtUTtEml-w9T-HHlBh-p2bHNP6mprk

Seems to be saying Crewe to Manchester is paused as well as the eastern leg, although the former is incorrectly quoted as part of Phase 2a (which only goes as far north as Crewe) so the accuracy of the rest may be questionable.  

[corneliuslundie]

So another pause, another enquiry and automatically another increase in costs. And then cut back because costs have increased

Normal government approach.

Jonathan