HS2

[phil-b259]

On 24/10/2021 at 22:31, lmsforever said:

The article I read talks of HS2 trains traveling at 60mph between Leeds  south to Brum not a white heat project looks like  Kings Cross Leeds will become a viable fast route and HS2 will become a London to Brum branch line albiet a fast line.I wonder if further cuts will happen or the powers that be will pause the contract this obviously is an emergency hapening but with the country as it is and continued covid you never know.  I hope that works progress as this is along term job consideration has to be required to carrying on wiyh work.

 

HS2 will get as far north as Crewe! Thats a fair distance north of Birmingham!

 

Moreover your post gives the impression that services on the new line will simply be a London to Birmingham shuttle - the very thing many of us on this forum have been spending YEARS trying to correct. Lest you forget HS2 will be very busy with services from Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and the WCML towards Scotland as well as trains to / from Birmingham.

 

Yes its a shame that the Eastern leg looks to be scaled back, BUT it was always foolish in my view to try and use HS2 to cater for London - Leeds traffic (and the excessively high operating speeds needed to make the business case stand up).

 

If Leeds and the NE really needs an uplift in capacity and speed grater than a 140mph ECTS fitted ECML can deliver then you do what the French do and build ANOTHER stand alone high speed line along the eastern side of the UK which will deliver much faster journey times than the dogleg via Brum and doesn't prevent the East Midlands from having to rely soley on a parkway station at Toton.

 

In fact the biggest loser from curtailing HS2s eastern leg is cross country services - which would really benefit from being sped up on the core section between Birmingham and Sheffield and not having to act as regional commuter services at the same time.

 

However curtailing HS2 in the vicinity of Toton and adding links to the MML still has real potential to make a difference to the East Midlands with faster plus more frequent services to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield by removing the capacity constraints of the MML (and only having 4 platforms available at St Pancras for everything, including Corby services).

 

The only caveat is that, as the French do, I would ensure that the opportunity to extended it further northwards towards Sheffield in later decades is preserved with the route safeguarded from development.

[lmsforever]

On a local newsite today had a item about the archeological dig in Stoke Mandeville old church  three Roman busts have been found plus a rectangular glass container of which only one is exsistence in the USA. The figures are a man woman and a child all of which when cleaned will go on display.The church was origonaly built in 1084 and the busts are at least a thousand years older.Thank goodness the dig is taking place as it is uncovering our history its a very good thing to come out of HS2 .  Work is accelerating alongside the A418 to Stone concrete plinths are emerging on the left as you go towards Thame .The route towards Bicester is taking shape rapidly and looks like next year embankments could be taking shape.

[jamie92208]

Thanks to @lmsforeverfor the post above.  I've just seen this link about it on the BBC website.

 

Stoke Mandeville: Roman sculptures HS2 find astounding, expert says - BBC News

 

Jamie

Edited October 29, 2021 by jamie92208

[jamie92208]

Latest update on tunnelling progress.  Florence has now completed 2021 metres and Cecilia has done 1384 metres.

 

Jamie

Edited November 1, 2021 by jamie92208

[lmsforever]

In reply to the post replying tomine on the curtailment of HS2   it will cease to be an ultra high speed line north of Crewe and the dedicated high speed stock will not have tilt where its needed  in Scotland.A Pendo will have an advantage on this route and overall will still provide the ride of choice for many who do not want to go into London for a journey to the north.I still think that HS2 will have a big role in travel but for people who live south of London and of course west and east.Overall it will progress railways in the UK but will another high speed line be built in the UK ,I think not as the public will not want the upheavall and the cost. I note that the Scottish parliament are not interested in the project neither will be the Welsh. The line once it is running will I hope be a success and that the rolling stock ideas seep down to other stock and that passengers actually pay the fares to travel especially on longer journeys past Brum.The technology involved is astounding and should encourage youth to enter the rail industry as a career.But its all in the future and lets hope that construction passes well and trains arrive on time and of course people use it.

[frobisher]

12 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

I note that the Scottish parliament are not interested in the project neither will be the Welsh.

 

I thought Holyrood's position was "build it to the border, and we'll build the Scottish leg(s)" which doesn't seem like disinterest to me..?

[Ron Ron Ron]

41 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

……….A Pendo will have an advantage on this route and overall will still provide the ride of choice for many who do not want to go into London for a journey to the north……..

The Pendolinos will be coming to the end of their lives and will be close to retirement by the time HS2 is fully up and running, beyond Birmingham.

 

Although there will still be some non-HS2 long distance services, serving towns and cities not on the HS route ( e.g. Milton Keynes, Rugby etc) all the key markets will see their main IC services moved onto the new line.

HS2 isn’t an alternative option to the current IC offering. It’s a replacement.

 

.

[lmsforever]

11 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

I thought Holyrood's position was "build it to the border, and we'll build the Scottish leg(s)" which doesn't seem like disinterest to me..?

The person in charge said no  they want us to finance it

[lmsforever]

11 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The Pendolinos will be coming to the end of their lives and will be close to retirement by the time HS2 is fully up and running, beyond Birmingham.

 

Although there will still be some non-HS2 long distance services, serving towns and cities not on the HS route ( e.g. Milton Keynes, Rugby etc) all the key markets will see their main IC services moved onto the new line.

HS2 isn’t an alternative option to the current IC offering. It’s a replacement.

 

.

Ron    HS2 is fine but people who go north now from stops out of Euston are being ignored a connect service is not what people want.Pendos will probably have to be replaced by something similar as the  services will be required  .

[woodenhead]

Pendos are probably the last of their kind for the WCML - technology is always moving forward and with all trains now generally moving faster engineering curves for higher speed trains without tilt is now possible.  The Pendo and the APT before it was to cope with very slow moving and very fast moving trains existing in the same space - all trains now go a lot faster especially freight trains, so the need for a tilting train will be gone by the time the Pendos are up for a replacement.

[Edwin_m]

35 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Pendos are probably the last of their kind for the WCML - technology is always moving forward and with all trains now generally moving faster engineering curves for higher speed trains without tilt is now possible.  The Pendo and the APT before it was to cope with very slow moving and very fast moving trains existing in the same space - all trains now go a lot faster especially freight trains, so the need for a tilting train will be gone by the time the Pendos are up for a replacement.

Also newer trains tend to have a lot more power and more motored axles, giving better acceleration, so the time penalty of having to accelerate back up to line speed after a curve restriction is that much less.  

[Ron Ron Ron]

It’s always possible that once HS2 is open, there could be future upgrades and enhancements to the WCML north of Crewe, to reduce the overall journey time and better manage the line capacity.

 

 

.

[jamie92208]

If freight really takes off they could always reopen the Carlisle freight lines.

 

Jamie

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

If freight really takes off they could always reopen the Carlisle freight lines.

 

Jamie

It may upset the residents of Lime St and Elm St - the route is now a footpath by the river, a Lidl may also be very close to the route as well.  

 

However, it may be possible to reinstate it, though I doubt in reality the WCML at that far north would really ever want more routes to improve capacity, it's not that big an alternative and it may be simpler to remodel Carlisle station itself for through freight on the west side of the station than re-open a bit of curvy railway that would also need to be electrified.

 

Capacity improvements on the WCML seem to be required more between Crewe and Preston - returning more four track where it had been reduced or as with the some sections of the southern half adding extra tracks where they did not previously exist.  Once past Preston, the line becomes quiet, even quieter after Carnforth.  

 

If anywhere needs improvements it is in the approach to Glasgow, quite a spiders web of routes and junctions.

Edited November 2, 2021 by woodenhead

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Ron    HS2 is fine but people who go north now from stops out of Euston are being ignored a connect service is not what people want.Pendos will probably have to be replaced by something similar as the  services will be required  .

 

I don't think they (we, since I live in MK) are being ignored. It is simply not possible to provide the best for everybody.

For every person who may have a slightly longer journey, now with a change, you could help 3 get there quicker, but more importantly, you could create space for 3 more served by the extra local services.

 

Fewer InterCity services stop at places like MK, Watford or Rugby than they did back in the days of the 86s & 87s anyway.

As an example, there is only 1 train per day direct from MK to Glasgow via the Trent Valley lines. There are other direct services but these go via Birmingham & Wolverhampton so I may as well take a North Wales service to Crewe & change there.

I don't think places like MK are being ignored. It is simply harder to provide a good service for everywhere.

Another issue is the crowds on the Trains. Many Manchester services are full to at least Stoke-on-Trent, so why stop them to overfill them at intermediates?

[scottystitch]

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

The person in charge said no  they want us to finance it

 

Who is "Us"?

 

Best

 

Scott.

[The Border Reiver]

33 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It may upset the residents of Lime St and Elm St - the route is now a footpath by the river, a Lidl may also be very close to the route as well.  

 

However, it may be possible to reinstate it, though I doubt in reality the WCML at that far north would really ever want more routes to improve capacity, it's not that big an alternative and it may be simpler to remodel Carlisle station itself for through freight on the west side of the station than re-open a bit of curvy railway that would also need to be electrified.

 

Capacity improvements on the WCML seem to be required more between Crewe and Preston - returning more four track where it had been reduced or as with the some sections of the southern half adding extra tracks where they did not previously exist.  Once past Preston, the line becomes quiet, even quieter after Carnforth.  

 

If anywhere needs improvements it is in the approach to Glasgow, quite a spiders web of routes and junctions.

 

There are plans to add a new platform 0 at the west end of the station near the wall

 

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, The Border Reiver said:

 

There are plans to add a new platform 0 at the west end of the station near the wall

 

Looks like the Cumbrian coast trains will use platform 0 - not much else that short out of the station unless they want S&C services to use it too.  Still looks to have plenty of through lines to allow freight services to pass.

[lmsforever]

True its quiet north of Carnforth now  but with all the new services it will certainly get busy  but as was said sometime ago  the HS2 ones will be at a disadvantage without tilt.I cannot see a technology that is proven and is an advantage to services to Scotland and upto the south being binned. A pendo is a unit that has a great future and I can see new units to replace current models.One thing that will have to happen before high speed services is track fettling as these units could put a strain on existing lines.   It is a great shame that HS lines were not planned to and across the border I suppose it comes down to money . 

[lmsforever]

11 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

 

Who is "Us"?

 

Best

 

Scott.

The leader of the scottish party at present in power said sometime ago that if England wanted a HS line over the border England can pay for it .If things change north of the border ie independence thats a whole new can of worms.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

True its quiet north of Carnforth now  but with all the new services it will certainly get busy  but as was said sometime ago  the HS2 ones will be at a disadvantage without tilt.I cannot see a technology that is proven and is an advantage to services to Scotland and upto the south being binned. A pendo is a unit that has a great future and I can see new units to replace current models.One thing that will have to happen before high speed services is track fettling as these units could put a strain on existing lines.   It is a great shame that HS lines were not planned to and across the border I suppose it comes down to money . 

Glasgow trains are not packed to the rafters now, always been easier to get good deals from Cumbria over Manchester (work would sometimes see me start from Cumbria) and the peak hour restrictions on northwest bound trains were never so strict on the Scottish services.  I cannot see an increased frequency of Anglo-Scottish services, the Pendo trains will reduce replaced by HS2 services.  Also remember, it is the same franchisee taking over the HS2 running as WCML so they did not lose income from the switchover.

[scottystitch]

12 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The leader of the scottish party at present in power said sometime ago that if England wanted a HS line over the border England can pay for it .If things change north of the border ie independence thats a whole new can of worms.

 

Do you have a source for that?

 

As far as I'm aware, HS2 is and always has been funded by the UK Government, to which Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland belong to, contribute to, and benefit from whilst they are a part.

 

England is not funding HS2 Phase 1 or 2, the UK is.

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited November 2, 2021 by scottystitch

[luckymucklebackit]

53 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If anywhere needs improvements it is in the approach to Glasgow, quite a spiders web of routes and junctions.

 

Amen to that - I have lost count of the number of times I have been on a Pendo approaching Carstairs on time or a little early, only to be delayed by local services, for various good reasons it is also a near crawl from Polmadie into the station.  In comparison I always remeber the first time I ran into Paddington, couldnt believe how fast we were going at the platform ends!  Ironically the line widens out to four tracks after the bulk of the locals head off round towards Dalmarnock and the LL.  Difficult to see how a high speed line into Central could be aligned though.

 

Jim

[lmsforever]

Every time I have travlled to Glasgow the train is usualy packed upon arrival at central and returning they are always busy .First class is usualy quiet but can be busy to destination  there will always be a market for inter city services on the wcml so perhaps we will alternatives

[lmsforever]

6 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said:

 

Amen to that - I have lost count of the number of times I have been on a Pendo approaching Carstairs on time or a little early, only to be delayed by local services, for various good reasons it is also a near crawl from Polmadie into the station.  In comparison I always remeber the first time I ran into Paddington, couldnt believe how fast we were going at the platform ends!  Ironically the line widens out to four tracks after the bulk of the locals head off round towards Dalmarnock and the LL.  Difficult to see how a high speed line into Central could be aligned though.

 

Jim

Agree  several times upon approach to central i have looked out and found us passing local stations not on the normal route.maybe some of the disused sidings outside the station could be taken out and running lines be rerouted.Agree about were an HS line would go into Glasgow.