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2 hours ago, scottystitch said:

Would it be worth trotting to Euston as against nipping over to King’s Cross and the ECML, in this case? Particularly if you had luggage?...

 

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Scott. 

Probably not but I justvwant to ride HS2 to Leeds.

 

Jamie

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16 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

As a former resident of "The North"  I agree with Ron, though it isxa bit counter intuitive. I would love to have seen work starting in Leeds before I left. The Compuldory purchase advance notices have already been served. However, the most difficult section politically  was always goi g to be the southern section, in Lonodon and through The Chilterns.  It was quite a brave de ision for a Chiltern MP, to champion this project when he was PM. I am no loverbof his politics but am glad that this project got the go ahead.  As Ron says, it will now be relatively easy to keep adding further sections. I just hope that I live long enough to be able to change from Eurostar to HS2 en route to vusit mt my granddaughter in Leeds, hopefully in time for some major life event such as graduation if not earlier. She will be 2 in May.

 

Jamie

 

15 hours ago, melmerby said:

Not sure about changing Eurostar to HS2 as they ain't gonna meet, I suppose the walk from St P to Euston isn't too far (about 1km on foot), else it's one stop on the Underground.

 

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And you probably walk the same distance underground if using the Tube. It is an easy walk above ground and you get to see the front of St Pancras as abonus.

Jonathan

 

5 hours ago, scottystitch said:

Would it be worth trotting to Euston as against nipping over to King’s Cross and the ECML, in this case? Particularly if you had luggage?...

 

Best

 

Scott. 

Sadly as alluded to, I wonder how many of us (as in RMWebbers discussing HS2) will be alive and wanting to use it when it reaches us here in the North.

 

In terms of travelling between Kings X / St Pancras and Euston - I'll bet at some point they will put in a travelator between the two as that would be simpler than using the Underground and could be feasibly done at ground level.

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

...... I'll bet at some point they will put in a travelator between the two as that would be simpler than using the Underground and could be feasibly done at ground level.

 

Right from the beginning, when Euston was proposed and later chosen as the London Terminal for HS2, there have been suggestions and proposals for some form of link between Euston and KGX/STP.

 

These ideas have varied from a travelator and even a transit link, to a dedicated walkway.

There is still nothing concrete with these plans, even this far into the project. It's just been quietly forgotten.

 

 

.

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4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It's not really clear yet what the HS2 service will do to the King's Cross to Leeds service. It's assume it'll still exist, but probably be slower than today.

 

Really? I do wonder, then, why they are spending £1.4 billion on upgrading the ECML right now, in order to increase the number of paths available and reduce journey times????

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3 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Because we have to manage for another 20 years until phase 2B opens.

 

Yes indeed. But Zomboid's assertion was that journey times would be slower, from Leeds to London, than today. Very unlikely, unless he is referring to the possibility of additional stopping points. As most off-peak Leeds-KGX services already include most intermediate stops north of Peterborough, that is not very likely?

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40 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Yes indeed. But Zomboid's assertion was that journey times would be slower, from Leeds to London, than today. Very unlikely, unless he is referring to the possibility of additional stopping points. As most off-peak Leeds-KGX services already include most intermediate stops north of Peterborough, that is not very likely?

I was thinking of additional stops. The time I went to Leeds (only return trip so not representative) the only calls between London and Doncaster were at Peterborough. The obvious benefit to HS2 south of Leeds/ York is that the super-fast trains run on the new line, freeing up space for trains to call at more places and provide greater general connectivity. If you don't do that then there's little point to the whole exercise really.

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23 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I was thinking of additional stops. The time I went to Leeds (only return trip so not representative) the only calls between London and Doncaster were at Peterborough. The obvious benefit to HS2 south of Leeds/ York is that the super-fast trains run on the new line, freeing up space for trains to call at more places and provide greater general connectivity. If you don't do that then there's little point to the whole exercise really.

 

Yes, not representative. The fastest journey time (2hrs 12 minutes) is achieved by only five of the current trains in the (pre-Covid) TT. Most call at Wakefield, Doncaster, then a combination of Retford, Newark, Grantham, then Peterborough, and for the odd few, Stevenage. More usual journey time is 2hrs 30 mins. But that is still better than the average of 2hrs 55mins being achieved in the 1980's, before IC225, although the fastest was under 2hrs 30 mins.

 

So what additional stops were you thinking of? Hitchin? Welwyn GC? Potters Bar? I doubt it.

 

I firmly believe that a practical effect of HS2 will be to relieve the ECML of the increasing overcrowding from which it had suffered, pre-Covid. There is a debate to be had over when that level of demand will return, but return it will - most journeys were for leisure (citybreak trips, outings to the theatre, cinema, concerts, sightseeing or whatever), visiting friends or family, or for students. The potential reduction in business trips (to go to work, for meetings, to get new business or to negotiate or sign contracts etc etc) is posited as "significant". But peak hour trains are less crowded (north of Grantham anyway) than off-peak trains, and growth in demand is a combined function of GDP and social changes (vastly increased expense of buying and insuring and parking a car, need to be seen to be greener,  greater movement away from cities when needing to still use those cities for entertainment etc). So where is the reduced demand?

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12 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

So what additional stops were you thinking of? Hitchin? Welwyn GC? Potters Bar? I doubt it.

I was thinking of Retford, Grantham, Newark... If they stop there anyway then that's a different matter, but maybe if more trains stopped at all of those kinds of places then it would help people who want to travel more locally than just the London to xxx journeys around which much of the LNER service south of Doncaster seems to be built.

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It definitely is looking like the extensions will be a long time coming if ever ,so the ECML must be upgraded as places like York will suffer .The WCML will probably have to be worked on regardless of HS2 this line is important to people who live alongside it and will continue to grow passenger numbers .Fares will come into the equasion as well  HS2 fares must necseraly be high to recoup costs but on other lines it will not be essential .This will give them chances to drop fares .Like it or not without intervention by DAFT  passenger levels might not be high on high speed .But this way in the future and noone can predict the future.

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On 13/02/2021 at 19:14, Grovenor said:

Because we have to manage for another 20 years until phase 2B opens.

A figure echoing around the corridors of the railway is a  post-Covid reduction in passenger numbers of 40%,  working from home is a real threat to the railway in terms of fare revenue  and supporting revenue from passenger facilities such as rentals of commercial shops in stations, how will such businesses cope with a 40% loss of footfall?. The societal effects of the pandemic are not  to be dismissed.

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58 minutes ago, Pandora said:

A figure echoing around the corridors of the railway is a  post-Covid reduction in passenger numbers of 40%,  working from home is a real threat to the railway in terms of fare revenue  and supporting revenue from passenger facilities such as rentals of commercial shops in stations, how will such businesses cope with a 40% loss of footfall?. The societal effects of the pandemic are not  to be dismissed.

Perhaps, but this is a 100 year project. Who can say how things will look in 10 years , never mind 100 years ? 

For once this country is taking the long term view, don`t knock it.

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2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A bit slow and long winded (it's nearly an hour long), here's a summary of progress to date (well, new year'ish) from the Chiltern's Society.....

 

 

Thanks fir that link Ron. I thought that it was very well put together. He obviously isn't a fan but as a record of the construction works it was very good. It does show how the contractors appear to be trying to work with local people. One rather ironic point iscthat the cut and cover tunnel appears to need a larger land take than if it had been a shallow cutting. It will be interesting to compare before and after photos in due course.

 

Jamie

 

Jamie

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4 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

.....He obviously isn't a fan but as a record of the construction works it was very good. It does show how the contractors appear to be trying to work with local people.......

 

He also mentions several times during the video, that remedial work will restore and tidy up the landscape once the project is completed.

 

.

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Agreed it was interesting.  As you say, clearly not a fan.  It may be valid to highlight and bemoan the trees being felled, lanes being diverted/closed, etc., but it's a bit galling that he doesn't readily acknowledge the apparant mitigation that is takong place in respect of new trees being planted,etc.  There is also the fact that all of the archeology excavations would likely never have taken place without HS2 - every cloud? 

 

It also seems contradictory to mention noise barriers (presumably as a good thing) and then in the same breath bemoan the fact that HS2 passengers won't have much of a view...

 

Or am I reading too much into the narrative?

 

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Scott.

 

Edited by scottystitch
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48 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

...

There is also the fact that all of the archeology excavations would likely never have taken place without HS2 - every cloud? 

...

 

Actually, no.  Every professional archaeologist recognises that excavation is an irreversible and utterly destructive process: you can only excavate a site once. As archaeological techniques improve every year, it is usually much better to leave the remains underground, where they are protected, unless you are obliged to excavate because they are anyway about to be destroyed. "Time Team" gives a largely false impression of archaeological thinking.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Fenman said:

 

Actually, no.  Every professional archaeologist recognises that excavation is an irreversible and utterly destructive process: you can only excavate a site once. As archaeological techniques improve every year, it is usually much better to leave the remains underground, where they are protected, unless you are obliged to excavate because they are anyway about to be destroyed. "Time Team" gives a largely false impression of archaeological thinking.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

Yes I completely appreciate that, but the narrator was appreciative of  the wonderful items that had been found.  I'm saying those wonderful items likely wouldn't have been found, for him to be excited about,  if they hadn't been in the path of HS2. 

 

Whether an archeologist views that by-product as a good thing wasn't really what I was getting at.

 

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Scott.

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19 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Yes, not representative. The fastest journey time (2hrs 12 minutes) is achieved by only five of the current trains in the (pre-Covid) TT. Most call at Wakefield, Doncaster, then a combination of Retford, Newark, Grantham, then Peterborough, and for the odd few, Stevenage. More usual journey time is 2hrs 30 mins. But that is still better than the average of 2hrs 55mins being achieved in the 1980's, before IC225, although the fastest was under 2hrs 30 mins.

 

So what additional stops were you thinking of? Hitchin? Welwyn GC? Potters Bar? I doubt it.

 

I firmly believe that a practical effect of HS2 will be to relieve the ECML of the increasing overcrowding from which it had suffered, pre-Covid. There is a debate to be had over when that level of demand will return, but return it will - most journeys were for leisure (citybreak trips, outings to the theatre, cinema, concerts, sightseeing or whatever), visiting friends or family, or for students. The potential reduction in business trips (to go to work, for meetings, to get new business or to negotiate or sign contracts etc etc) is posited as "significant". But peak hour trains are less crowded (north of Grantham anyway) than off-peak trains, and growth in demand is a combined function of GDP and social changes (vastly increased expense of buying and insuring and parking a car, need to be seen to be greener,  greater movement away from cities when needing to still use those cities for entertainment etc). So where is the reduced demand?

 

I used to commute between Peterborough and York. The morning service, northbound, was rarely crowded although I was using the path timetabled for an 08:55 arrival in York. There was an exception in that the Friday service was always a lot busier and sometimes could be standing room only. That hasn't run since the first lockdown due to reduced demand. It was non-stop. An alternative which was usually much busier, especially from Retford onwards, was an all stations stopper.

 

As for my return journey that stopped only at Doncaster that was, more often than not, standing room only and became far more crowded when the timetable was changed with it starting from Edinburgh instead of Newcastle. In fact it got to the point where, much of the time, it was easier to stay in work for an extra half hour and pick up the train that started from York despite it being a stopper service.

 

Another time that was very busy would be the start and finish of university terms as well as 'open' days for prospective students, the number of students travelling long distance on the ECML would, I think, surprise many folk.

 

From personal experience there is definitely a capacity issue on the ECML from long distance travellers and as Mike has rightly said, the majority are not always business travellers.

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3 hours ago, Fenman said:

 

Actually, no.  Every professional archaeologist recognises that excavation is an irreversible and utterly destructive process: you can only excavate a site once. As archaeological techniques improve every year, it is usually much better to leave the remains underground, where they are protected, unless you are obliged to excavate because they are anyway about to be destroyed. "Time Team" gives a largely false impression of archaeological thinking.

 

Paul

 

 

But if the remains are left underground and never excavated no-one will ever know what is there, or that the remains are there in the first place, surely ?

 

It seems to me a pity that HS2 has not made use of HS1, ie shown that construction sites can and will be returned to nature, and that once completed the railway is not the devastating intrusion in the landscape people think it is. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

But if the remains are left underground and never excavated no-one will ever know what is there, or that the remains are there in the first place, surely ?

... 


Many sites are known — and they’re usually better off just being protected from deep ploughing or construction work (that’s what the last major round of ancient monuments legislation was all about in the 1980s). Scheduled ancient monuments are even more heavily protected than listed buildings.

 

Unknown sites are by definition impossible to deal with until they become known (so you can’t just excavate them to find out what they reveal because they’re unknown...). That’s why it’s now usually a condition of significant planning permission that archaeological investigations must first be undertaken. But those investigations inevitably destroy the site.

 

Unless the site is threatened with destruction, it’s considered less important that we satisfy our own curiosity with today’s inevitably crude techniques than that future generations should have access to the best possible information that the sites can yield. The longer you leave them undisturbed, (usually) the more information you will get. And there’s only a finite number of Iron Age hill forts, Roman villas or Saxon cemeteries. 
 

Paul

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