HS2

[Ron Ron Ron]

14 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

....I love the idea of HS2, and I'm amazed that it has got as far as it has. But I can't see it ever getting north of Birmingham, at least not in my lifetime. .....

 

As they are already committed to Crewe and initial contracts for north of Brum are being awarded, it will almost certainly extend most of the way to Manchester and the NW.

NPR might result in a change of plan in the Cheshire and south Lancashire area and possibly affect the routing into Manchester (plus a possible change to the terminus layout), but most if not all the route to Manchester will be completed.

 

There's already survey and other preparatory work going on north of Birmingham.

 

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[GoingUnderground]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But there are assumptions then to be made about the prices of self driving cars, range of said vehicles and capacity of the roads to deal with them.

 

Regardless of whether a car drives itself or not and whether it has an ICE or electric drive, HS2 will offer a means of travel that will be faster than the car over long distances and available to the masses and not those who can afford vehicles (just like how not everyone can now afford a mortgage).

Oh, I fully support HS2 and wish it every success. But I really do think that electric self-driving vehicles are a threat to HS2 and its longer term financial viability. I hope I'm wrong. 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

The point to AI is that is self learning, the programmers build the basic construct and the AI takes it from there.

 

If you watch swarms of AI bots they work well together, the problem with self driving cars isn't so much the car itself but the other cars around it driven by emotional humans whose responses are sometimes irrational, unexpected and slower.  Throw in cyclists and pedestrians and you can understand why people are concerned when it comes to self driving cars, even more so when it comes to it's decision making on protection - does it protect itself, the driver or the obstacle ahead - it can make a decision based on it's parameters but it may not be to everyone else's liking.

How long will it be before the Bots fall into the cycle of attending meetings and complaining about a lack of training?

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

How long will it be before the Bots fall into the cycle of attending meetings and complaining about a lack of training?

IIRC the bots using by Ocado have fights until one is King or Queen when it comes to collecting items from boxes - career progression is very rapid, but unfortunately short lived as they are immediately deposed and have to start all over again with the next box they want to access.

[GoingUnderground]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

As they are already committed to Crewe and initial contracts for north of Brum are being awarded, it will almost certainly extend most of the way to Manchester and the NW.

NPR might result in a change of plan in the Cheshire and south Lancashire area and possibly affect the routing into Manchester (plus a possible change to the terminus layout), but most if not all the route to Manchester will be completed.

 

There's already survey and other preparatory work going on north of Birmingham.

 

.

Ron,

 

I can see the financial strain imposed by Covid causing a rethink on all UK government expenditure, and HS2, being such a big ticket and so controversial a project, must be at the top of the list. It wouldn't surprise me if the timetable was extended, and the spec reduced to save money, which is why I said "..not in my lifetime...".

[woodenhead]

The route to Manchester will happen, it's a key route and really the core of what HS2 was about - the Leeds bit will come off some sort of northern high speed railway, but the rest of the Midlands will continue to languish.  Just look at all the upgrades to the WCML, ECML and GWML - all the MML gets is slow add on electrification and upgrading, it's simply not seen as a powerhouse key route.

 

North from Manchester will be on classic routes.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 minute ago, GoingUnderground said:

Ron,

 

I can see the financial strain imposed by Covid causing a rethink on all UK government expenditure, and HS2, being such a big ticket and so controversial a project, must be at the top of the list. It wouldn't surprise me if the timetable was extended, and the spec reduced to save money, which is why I said "..not in my lifetime...".

 

The rumours and "hints", "leaks" or whatever, about the eastern branch of the Y being postponed or cancelled, may or may not have some basis.

There's no such speculation or alleged leaks about the western arm.

There's a difficult task in making these big decisions, especially in light of the nation"s post-Covid finances..

It's almost universally accepted that big infrastructure projects will be vital to economic recovery and to stimulate the economy.

HS2 is seen as a key programme, but it's always possible some of it will be pruned back.

The timescales have already been pushed back, so the political ramifications in "the north" could be very damaging if any significant delay is announced without a counterbalancing and mitigating "big spend" elsewhere, on northern infrastructure.

 

.

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Whilst you have a point, I don't think it is anywhere near a clear-cut as you are suggesting. I travelled for decades on the Tube in London in the rush Hour. You get used it it and learn to ignore or "tune out" your fellow commuters.

 

Go to a festival or rock gig or even a football match and see the joy on the faces and enthusiasm generated by being there, in the company of strangers.

 

There's a difference between living with it and liking it. Judging by the way people protect the seat next to them I still feel people prefer to have their own personal space. There was a study done about lifts and where people stand when entering one, first the corners then the middle of the long sides and so on, all about preserving personal space. 

 

At a footie match the people surrounding you are likely to be fellow fans so, although strangers, are tolerated. Try doing some people watching in crowded places and you'll see such behaviour. 

 

Unlikely to happen on HS2 though, I assume seat reservations only. I wish we had that! 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Hobby

[Ron Ron Ron]

Chalfont St. Giles vent shaft work site - April 2021.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

There's a difference between living with it and liking it. Judging by the way people protect the seat next to them I still feel people prefer to have their own personal space. There was a study done about lifts and where people stand when entering one, first the corners then the middle of the long sides and so on, all about preserving personal space. ....

 

A few years back, FGW or GWR carried out a study on passengers boarding HST's and where they chose to sit.

They especially noted commuters at peak times, particularly heading towards the capital.

 

They found that, with the first people to board, the bias was towards the front of the train (subject to class).

The first seats to fill were those closest to the end of the carriages (close to the doors) and other "airline" configured seating.

Lone travellers and some pairs, on the whole, mostly avoided the 4 seat, facing bays if other seats were available.

As the train progressed through the journey and made more stops, they noted that passenger behaviour was consistent, as far as the reducing number of available seats would allow.

 

I have to say, although I've never had to commute long distance by train, my own instincts are similar whenever I've done a long distance, or in fact any rail journey, on my own.

On the few occasions I've reserved a seat, I've always chosen an "airline style" seat where possible, preferably facing the right way.

I find having to sit facing complete strangers for an extended period of time, a most uncomfortable experience......and I'm normally quite a sociable sort of person.

 

 

.

 

[caradoc]

8 hours ago, Pandora said:

I see nothing "environment friendly" about HS2. A vast draw of energy to save a few minutes on a journey.

 

Aarrrrghh !!!!!

 

I thought the myth that the purpose of HS2 was solely to 'save a few minutes' (usually to Birmingham) had been well and truly put to bed. Clearly not.

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Amersham vent shaft work site - April 2021

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

HS2 ?

We're only 60 years behind.......

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-56918684

 

 

 

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[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Aarrrrghh !!!!!

 

I thought the myth that the purpose of HS2 was solely to 'save a few minutes' (usually to Birmingham) had been well and truly put to bed. Clearly not.

 

 

The problem is the naysayers will keep plugging the same discredited arguments, presumably hoping some will believe them over the facts.

[melmerby]

55 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I find having to sit facing complete strangers for an extended period of time, a most uncomfortable experience......and I'm normally quite a sociable sort of person.

 

The biggest problem for me is where to put your feet.

(they would probably object if it was on the table!)

Seriously, when you need to move your legs frequently (as I have to) having to interlace them with someone opposite is quite a delicate operation.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by melmerby

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

HS2 ?

We're only 60 years behind.......

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-56918684

.

£380M in 1964 is about £6.5Bn now, so in real terms is probably 10 times as expensive in the 21st Century.  Amazing how much cheaper construction is in a society that when people insist the railway is tunneled so they don't have to see it, the response is, "Tough, we're building it on a viaduct".

[melmerby]

I travelled on a daytime train in Egypt where the 2+2 seating was normally arranged "airline style".

However when SWMBO and myself boarded the train the attendant pulled a lever, slid a double seat outwards, swivelled it around and pushed it back into place facing the other way. Although both were two person seats he told us to sit opposite, no one will need to sit there.

We went all the way from Luxor to Cairo. (Interesting journey if anyone wants to do it)

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I travelled on a daytime train in Egypt where the 2+2 seating was normally arranged "airline style".

However when SWMBO and myself boarded the train the attendant pulled a lever, slid a double seat outwards, swivelled it around and pushed it back into place facing the other way. Although both were two person seats he told us to sit opposite, no one will need to sit there.

We went all the way from Luxor to Cairo. (Interesting journey if anyone wants to do it)

Blackpool trams have done that since the 1930’s, depending on the time of year you can see camels and pyramids in lights too.

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[jamie92208]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Blackpool trams have done that since the 1930’s, depending on the time of year you can see camels and pyramids in lights too.

Horse drawn trams built in the 1890's did it as well on the fully air conditioned upper deck, the lower deck had longditudinal bench seats, 15" per passenger.

 

Jamie

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Blackpool trams have done that since the 1930’s, depending on the time of year you can see camels and pyramids in lights too.

Bet they don't have thick padded squabs and high backs though.....

 

I can remember the tip over seats which used to be the standard for trams.

Edited May 16, 2021 by melmerby

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

A few years back, FGW or GWR carried out a study on passengers boarding HST's and where they chose to sit.

They especially noted commuters at peak times, particularly heading towards the capital.

 

They found that, with the first people to board, the bias was towards the front of the train (subject to class).

The first seats to fill were those closest to the end of the carriages (close to the doors) and other "airline" configured seating.

Lone travellers and some pairs, on the whole, mostly avoided the 4 seat, facing bays if other seats were available.

As the train progressed through the journey and made more stops, they noted that passenger behaviour was consistent, as far as the reducing number of available seats would allow.

 

I have to say, although I've never had to commute long distance by train, my own instincts are similar whenever I've done a long distance, or in fact any rail journey, on my own.

On the few occasions I've reserved a seat, I've always chosen an "airline style" seat where possible, preferably facing the right way.

I find having to sit facing complete strangers for an extended period of time, a most uncomfortable experience......and I'm normally quite a sociable sort of person..

 

Based on my experience using the Tube, most commuters go for the coach opposite the exit so that they can get out of the station as quickly as possible. Sitting nearest the doors is logical on a potentially crowded train, especially if you're going to need to struggle to get through the standees to get out. If passengers need to change trains on the Tube then they go for the carriage closest to the entrance to the interchange walkway. This results in some bunching as many Tube stations have their exits nearest to the centre region of the train. But there are notable exceptions of stations with exits or major interchange walkways at the front or back of the train. In these cases those carriages can be crammed at times whilst there is a lot more space elsewhere on the train.

 

Perhaps I've just travelled for too many years on the Tube where you do have to sit facing someone no matter where you sit, apart from the carriage end jump seats, as there are no airline (or bus) style seats. And if sitting in the transverse seats knee room was a luxury, and the chances are that you clothing will be in contact with those of the persons on either side of you if you're in the middle of a bank of 3 seats like on the old A60/62 Metropolitan line stock as that, the Central Line 59/62 Tube Stock, and Bakerloo '38 Tube Stock were my "daily drives" for the odd decade or two. Hence, I go for the table seats, as do many people as they are often occupied whilst there are empty seats elsewhere, and avoid the bus/airline style seats because you're so blocked in by the back of the seat in front. I have no problems facing people as I've learned to look away and not intrude on their visual space to our mutual comfort. 

 

But I find it odd that you don't like sitting opposite someone, but you're quite prepared to sit physically much closer next to them, or do you rely on being slow in moving your bag or coat from the seat next to you to discourage folks from sitting there? It's a bit antisocial, but I will admit I do it myself and have done for years so that I've got more space. Given the choice and the time to buy the ticket in advance and have a railcard I'd go First just for the extra guaranteed room even if someone does sit in the seat next to me, which is what I do when going to Warley. Let's hope I can do that in November.

[corneliuslundie]

I assume that all those writing about seat preferences must be Londoners.

In mid Wales the chances are you will get chatting to the person next to or opposite you - just as you say hullo to almost anyone you pass in the street and chat to the people next to you in a queue. I have a feeling that if I had behaved like that in Harpenden I would have been reported to the police.

Jonathan

[boxbrownie]

6 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

But the fact that it is even being talked about by government shows that it is on its way.

So is HS2........few years to go there yet 

[boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Elon Musk reckons full autonomy is very close technically and beyond that, within the next 5 to 10 years could be at the stage where for all intents and purposes, could be considered as close to infallible as we're like to get.

He believes the greatest difficulty, is as you suggest, the regulatory and legal hurdles and ramifications.

 

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He hasn’t driven on the lanes here in Cornwall, I’d love to see how it deals with a single track road confronted with a builders transit coming the other way 

 

It'll work fine (mostly) on motorways but around towns in the rush hour and narrow rural lanes......hmm

[DK123GWR]

28 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that all those writing about seat preferences must be Londoners.

In mid Wales the chances are you will get chatting to the person next to or opposite you - just as you say hullo to almost anyone you pass in the street and chat to the people next to you in a queue. I have a feeling that if I had behaved like that in Harpenden I would have been reported to the police.

Jonathan

Living about half way between London and Wales, I always find it odd that if two strangers pass each other in a field or on a country lane they always greet each other, but the same two people passing on the high street (or anywhere else in a town) will do anything in their power not to acknowledge each other's existence. I've never been able to fathom why.