HS2

[Fenman]

14 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

…

In my ideal world (otherwise well known as la la land), there would be a loop off the GWML to the west of the M25 diving into a tunnel taking the line into T5 at Heathrow, then back through the current link to the east. Make the Heathrow stations into full mainline stations - min 4 platforms, like Schiphol, and then you can start to think about services running via Heathrow from Paddington (& places east) and from Reading (& places west, south west and north west). That is what has been needed these past 40 years and more but the dolts in government can't get their heads around the obvious.

…

The problem is that most people assume Heathrow is monolithic, and that you just need a single station — and while you do write about all terminals you then cite a station at T5.
 

But only ~1/3rd of Heathrow passengers are going to T5: the rest would need to change to a shuttle of some sort to reach their terminal. If the majority of airport passengers are anyway going to need to change to a shuttle, it makes no sense to add extra journey time and inconvenience to all the non-airport passengers (ie, the majority of any train) by making them divert via Heathrow. Instead you just have an all-terminals shuttle from Old Oak Common. 
 

Your proposed Heathrow loop was what was investigated in great detail, at the request of Lord Adonis, by the former Tory minister Brian Mawhinney. I’m no fan of his, but his report was a pretty comprehensive dismissal of the idea: the costs (including the ongoing ones) would vastly outweigh any benefits. 
 

The current proposal for a western approach off the GWML also seems sensible to me. 
 

Paul

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

21 minutes ago, Fenman said:

only ~1/3rd of Heathrow passengers are going to T5

One simple approach is to have a T5 station and then a T2/T3 station as at present - various other airports around the world have a pair of stations like this. T4 would have to be via some kind of shuttle, but T4 is relatively small.

 

23 minutes ago, Fenman said:

it makes no sense to add extra journey time

With the arrangement on a loop, the extra time is fairly small. It is also possible to choose which trains go via Heathrow and which do not - they don't all have to go there. The presence of the major interchange at Reading just to the west offers flexibility since people can change trains there if necessary.

 

25 minutes ago, Fenman said:

a pretty comprehensive dismissal of the idea

As with many of these reports, it is often a case of drawing out a desired conclusion*. I treat any report prepared by a politician with a high degree of skepticism.

 

The real question is whether you want an integrated transport system and whether you are committed to getting more people to travel by train rather than by car. I am sure that a lot of people travel to Heathrow by car because the alternatives are simply slow and inconvenient - I certainly did. 

 

Yours, Mike.

 

* A certain "Beeching Report" comes to mind - remember that one?

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Fenman said:

…….it makes no sense to add extra journey time and inconvenience to all the non-airport passengers (ie, the majority of any train) by making them divert via Heathrow……

 

A significant reason why a loop through service via Heathrow is not desirable, is that the rail services to Heathrow are meant to be providing 100% of their capacity for the carriage of airport passengers and workers.

There should not and cannot be any room for carrying any through passengers, otherwise the purpose of the link is null and void.

Through trains would only work as double ended terminating services, where nobody is permitted to travel beyond the Heathrow stations, in either direction.

 

Note that when the Elizabeth Line service is fully operational, there are to be 10 trains an hour into Heathrow, from the London direction -  6 tph EL plus 4 tph HEX - purely to service Heathrow.

All completely off topic of course.

 

 

.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[scottystitch]

Confirmed:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/18/hs2-rail-leg-to-leeds-scrapped-grant-shapps-confirms

 

and:

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/boris-johnson-our-integrated-rail-plan-for-hs2-and-northern-powerhouse-rail-in-yorkshire-3461833

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited November 18, 2021 by scottystitch

[John Tomlinson]

Looking at the reports of the announcement on the Gurdian's webpage, I can't see anything about a new HS line from Leeds to Sheffield, have I missed something?

 

HS3 also appears to have gone as well.

 

John.

[ess1uk]

Quote from the BBC news website: HS2: Rail times for northern England to be slashed - Shapps - BBC News

 

 

The transport secretary also didn’t say the eastern leg is scrapped altogether, but that they would continue to look at how to bring high speed trains to Leeds. That potentially leaves both supporters and critics in limbo if they think there’s a chance the line could come back.

Edited November 18, 2021 by ess1uk
URL

[scottystitch]

Integrated Rail Plan here:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034360/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands.pdf

 

"...look at options on how best to take HS2 services to Leeds. Safeguarding of the previously proposed high speed route north of East Midlands Parkway will remain in place pending conclusion of this work."

 

Best

Scott.

Edited November 18, 2021 by scottystitch

[KingEdwardII]

5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

There should not and cannot be any room for carrying any through passengers, otherwise the purpose of the link is null and void.

I find that an extraordinary and wrongheaded idea - indeed it seems part of the rigid type of thinking that bedevils transport policy in this country. "You can only take a train to the airport that is dedicated solely to serving the airport"!

 

In many other countries, they have main lines running through the airport stations and the stations are treated in many ways just like any other station. Schiphol is the classic example - close to the UK and a superb example of integration. 

 

We also have Gatwick and Birmingham International in the UK - not quite as seamless as Schiphol since the rail tracks and the station are off to one side of the air terminal(s) in both cases rather than underneath the terminal, but pretty good nevertheless.

 

Heathrow is miles away from these examples, even though it is the premier airport in the UK.

 

Yours, Mike.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, ess1uk said:

 That potentially leaves both supporters and critics in limbo if they think there’s a chance the line could come back.

At a General Election no doubt

[KingEdwardII]

Returning to the topic of HS2 - shouldn't the HS line from the Midlands actually go via Heathrow before going to Central London?  CDG airport in Paris sits on a TGV station and you can get high speed connections both to the north and south of France direct from the airport station. Schiphol has Thalys and other high speed services stopping there.

 

Yours, Mike.

[woodenhead]

Whilst I am feeling that the way HS2 has been structured has allowed a lot of wriggle room to cancel elements when politically expedient, actually, a lot of what has been proposed is positive.

1. Full electrification of the Standedge route
2. MML electrification to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield
3. Route enhancements in the Peak district
4. A new route from Warrington to Standedge to improve journey times (think this may be a change in HS2 route as well to save money with a two for one win).
5. Four tracking east of Standedge
6. Extra capacity on services to Derby, East Midlands and Nottingham via HS2 services
7. Potential to enhance capacity from Toton up to Leeds in the future or implementation of HS2 Eastern leg in full

Whilst building HS2 is a career making job for the civil engineering teams due to the time it will take to build, for those of us who want to use the trains then something delivered earlier which improves the experience has to be looked on positively.

 

Pity no mention of the Oxford Road corridor, we only wanted a couple of extra platforms at Piccadilly and a lengthend Oxford Rd, but I think instead it will have to wait for the digital signalling promised for the Liverpool to Leeds route instead.

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Returning to the topic of HS2 - shouldn't the HS line from the Midlands actually go via Heathrow before going to Central London?  CDG airport in Paris sits on a TGV station and you can get high speed connections both to the north and south of France direct from the airport station. Schiphol has Thalys and other high speed services stopping there.

 

Yours, Mike.

Public transport is structured at Heathrow to support masses of people moving from London, if people in the East Midlands or further north need to use it, they would prefer you used a feeder service from a local airport such as East Midlands or Manchester Airport, or got the train to London and then a train out to Heathrow.  With HS2 the changeover can take place at Old Oak Common using the lifts from the lower level HS2 platforms up to the GWML platforms above where a waiting Heathrow Express/Crossrail service will whisk you to the airport.

[Flittersnoop]

I can't believe that HS2 trains bound for Sheffield are going to be made to trundle round via Derby - why on Earth can't they go straight up the Erewash Valley line from East Midlands Parkway - that would save loads of time?

[pete_mcfarlane]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A significant reason why a loop through service via Heathrow is not desirable, is that the rail services to Heathrow are meant to be providing 100% of their capacity for the carriage of airport passengers and workers.

There should not and cannot be any room for carrying any through passengers, otherwise the purpose of the link is null and void..

And for proof, just watch any Brighton main line service stopping at Gatwick and the mayhem that ensues. 

[woodenhead]

Looking at this map of the Liverpool to Leeds proposal

I think they are going to retain the present HS2b proposed alignment and use what is currently the route past the old Fiddlers Ferry powerstation, go under Warrington Bank Quay (where there was a station) and use the old Latchford-Lymm alignment to reach the HS2 route to Manchester.

That would be my choice anyway

[scottystitch]

17 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Looking at this map of the Liverpool to Leeds proposal

I think they are going to retain the present HS2b proposed alignment and use what is currently the route past the old Fiddlers Ferry powerstation, go under Warrington Bank Quay (where there was a station) and use the old Latchford-Lymm alignment to reach the HS2 route to Manchester.

That would be my choice anyway

Yes, the text of the report mentions using the Fiddlers Ferry route and re-instatement of Warrington Low Level station.  The route from HS2 to Warrington will be up to HS2 Ltd to figure out.

 

Entry into Lime Street will use the existing WCML tracks and Lime Street expanded to accept HS2/NPR services.

 

Consideration of a separate terminus for Liverpool is accomadated but at the expense of the local authority.

 

The text and map also make mention of "new" high speed line from Piccadilly to East of Standedge Tunnel (orange line at the top right of that diagram).  I'm trying to figure out if it truly is a new alignment or if it will conversion of the existing route to HS standards.  Can anyone comment?

 

Best

 

Scott

Edited November 18, 2021 by scottystitch

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

I find that an extraordinary and wrongheaded idea - indeed it seems part of the rigid type of thinking that bedevils transport policy in this country. "You can only take a train to the airport that is dedicated solely to serving the airport"!

 

In many other countries, they have main lines running through the airport stations and the stations are treated in many ways just like any other station. Schiphol is the classic example - close to the UK and a superb example of integration. 

 

We also have Gatwick and Birmingham International in the UK - not quite as seamless as Schiphol since the rail tracks and the station are off to one side of the air terminal(s) in both cases rather than underneath the terminal, but pretty good nevertheless.

 

Heathrow is miles away from these examples, even though it is the premier airport in the UK.

 

 

In an ideal world, a mainline rail route, with a large station complex could have provided that level of connectivity, but the rail link to Heathrow wasn't designed to provide the amount of capacity required for such a venture.

 

 

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

Returning to the topic of HS2 - shouldn't the HS line from the Midlands actually go via Heathrow before going to Central London?  CDG airport in Paris sits on a TGV station and you can get high speed connections both to the north and south of France direct from the airport station. Schiphol has Thalys and other high speed services stopping there.

 

 

That debate was run through over a decade ago and is long settled and dead.

The overwhelming conclusion from various quarters, was that there was no benefit, in fact a dis-benefit, to routing HS2 via Heathrow.

Instead, initially a Heathrow spur was provided for, coming off HS2  to the north of Uxbridge, but in the analysis, even that link was found to have minimal benefit.

It was decided that a connection viat Old Oak Common, was the best solution.

 

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Public transport is structured at Heathrow to support masses of people moving from London.......

 

Precisely.

The main reason being that the overwhelming number of terminal passengers (starting and terminating their air journeys at Heathrow), are travelling to and from the SE region, with most of those to/from Greater London.

 

Pre-pandemic, 66% of Heathrow passengers were terminal passengers, with 33% being connecting transit passengers (arriving and leaving by air).

 

76% of terminal passengers were travelling to/from The SE region (which doesn't include Essex, Hertfordshire or Cambridgeshire, which are in the Eastern region).

 

Of those, 70% were travelling to/from Greater London.

 

The total number of passengers using Heathrow, starting and ending their journeys from regions served by HS2 (as proposed with the eastern branch),

i.e. West & East Midlands, the NW, Yorkshire & Humberside, the NE and Scotland, all added together.....

....using surface transport (rail or road)......

....accounted for only around 7% of the total number of Heathrow's terminating passengers.

 

That's hardly a justification for a dedicated HS2 link or spur, which would also abstract passengers from and damage regional airports.

 

 

.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, scottystitch said:

Yes, the text of the report mentions using the Fiddlers Ferry route and re-instatement of Warrington Low Level station.  The route from HS2 to Warrington will be up to HS2 Ltd to figure out.

 

The text and map also make mention of "new" high speed line from Piccadilly to East of Standedge Tunnel (orange line at the top right of that diagram).  I'm trying to figure out if it truly is a new alignment or if it will conversion of the existing route to HS standards.  Can anyone comment?

 

Best

 

Scott

Thanks.

 

The old route after Warrington heads towards Lymm which is close to where HS2 branches so at least some of the alignment will be used to get out of Warrington and past the M6.

 

Getting east out of Manchester, well there is one alignment going east with space land alongside it, used to go by the name of the M&SLR.

 

That would be a open route and then a proper new route to meet with Standedge once out past Guide Bridge.

[APOLLO]

I worked in and around Warrington for twenty years and know the whole area very well (Gas emergency duties).

 

Regarding the proposed reinstating the Ditton - Bank Quay - Latchford low level line, a non starter for sure. Just look at route here around Bank Quay on google earth. Not impossible but it will be mega expensive just west of Bank Quay. Lots of industry, sharp curves, level crossings, the meandering River Mersey not to mention the occasional spring tide floods (river is tidal here).

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3797451,-2.6069357,956a,35y,39.18t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.38469,-2.604578,224a,35y,39.43t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3854621,-2.6084773,224a,35y,39.43t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

 

 

The people of Lymm (very expensive housing area) will not be pleased. Perhaps a diversion here to the north between the M6 Thelwall viaduct and Rush green may be proposed (just south of the Manchester ship canal here). Note the old line went straight through Lymm and had several level crossings.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3676961,-2.4859197,2326a,35y,38.9t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Fiddlers Ferry to Ditton existing line few problems.

 

Rush Green to Rostherne (proposed junction_ mainly rural agricultural land. New route required.

 

And I doubt the still existing bridge over the ship canal will be viable, it's condition was a main factor in closing the line in the 80's.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3796517,-2.5530458,3a,75y,18.61h,100.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3dL02Q1aK_Djlb8-ZH7aRQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Not really much high speed potential on this route.

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by APOLLO
added info

[scottystitch]

8 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

Not really much high speed potential on this route.

 

Brit15

 

 

In fairness, I don't think they are suggesting it is a high speed route, merely an upgraded route to get HS2/NPR trains into and out of Liverpool...very much like running HS2 trains over existing tracks in place of the Eastern Leg

 

Best

 

Scott.

[woodenhead]

@APOLLO I am guessing the alignment may suit, but the engineering to deliver it will resolve many of the issues - a bit of straightening, bridges to replace level crossings and a spot of compulsory purchasing where necessary.

 

I don't think they expect this line to be mega fast, just faster and less congested than the current routes - thank goodness they haven't selected the Warrington Central route as a fast route.

[woodenhead]

Useful, they will be electrifying the Warrington Central route then

[APOLLO]

19 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

In fairness, I don't think they are suggesting it is a high speed route, merely an upgraded route to get HS2/NPR trains into and out of Liverpool...very much like running HS2 trains over existing tracks in place of the Eastern Leg

 

Best

 

Scott.

 

I think Liverpool trains would be best served as present through Runcorn.

 

HS2 to Liverpool negotiating this lot ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't ever forget the river.

 

 

Problem area, best avoided. It was bad enough doing gas related jobs around here !!

 

Brit15

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by APOLLO

[jamie92208]

40 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

 

 

The text and map also make mention of "new" high speed line from Piccadilly to East of Standedge Tunnel (orange line at the top right of that diagram).  I'm trying to figure out if it truly is a new alignment or if it will conversion of the existing route to HS standards.  Can anyone comment?

 

Best

 

Scott

The schedules at the end make specific mention of a totally new High Speed route from Manchester to east of Standedge, delivered through one of 3 Hybrid bills by 2040'ish, after full electrification  of the exusti g route p,us extra tracks. Presumably the junction, call it SlaithwIte for now will be caterec for in the upgrades. Presumably  they are goi g to use Mayfield as the station site so the tricky bit is goi g to be the exit towards the east.

 

Jamie

[APOLLO]

Googling the area just found this

 

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/18797772.unilevers-warrington-factory-closes-today-130-years/

 

 

So perhaps if all the industrial clutter is demolished it would help tremendously. BUT there are other industries around also. 

 

Any Warringtonians here who could shed more light ? - Not been there for years.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by APOLLO
typo