HS2

[Bernard Lamb]

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Ok.  Open google maps satellite view.  Start at Kings Cross or Marylebone or St Pancras.  Follow the lines from each and tell us how you add two tracks as far as say the M25 without knocking down thousands of buildings and widening embankments, cuttings and adding additional bores to the tunnels that are rife on the northern exits from London.  Explain how the cost, disruption, timescales and scale of the engineering required to do that is a lesser evil than HS2.  Then tell us how you find the space to add additional platforms at any of those terminus stations to service the two extra tracks.  If it helps my view is that knocking down the British Library is likely to be considered unacceptable.

 

 

I will not waste space by repeating all of your post.

Alternatively the people you are adressing could read up on why Crossrail to Tring was quickly abandoned as an alternative idea.

Do we really  have to humour these people by going over these rejected schemes again and again?

Bernard

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

 

Bring back Snow Hill as the GWR built it!!! Unfortunately even that is not now possible,

Jonathan

Even that was restricted by a 2 track south tunnel and a narrow site

EDIT

Their first one was even smaller, more so compared to the first part of New St built by the LNWR.

Edited February 21, 2020 by melmerby

[Zomboid]

With Birmingham as it is, there's no real options to significantly increase capacity at any existing station (a couple of the dead end platforms at Moor St are not in use, and will by useful for suburban services, but it'll be marginal gains). So it has to be a new station of some description - it's a good job that the old Curzon Street site was a derelict wasteland, and right next to Moor St too.

 

I do think the stations in general are more terminus heavy than would be ideal. If Leeds & Manchester HS2 were through stations then that would benefit the services heading further north (particularly people coming from the north into Leeds & Manchester, and especially if the high speed lines are extended further north in future), but obviously to build them as through stations would be a major expense. At least they're adjacent to the conventional lines so the trains into the classic network can call at the same station at the captive ones will.

[Mike Storey]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I will not waste space by repeating all of your post.

Alternatively the people you are adressing could read up on why Crossrail to Tring was quickly abandoned as an alternative idea.

Do we really  have to humour these people by going over these rejected schemes again and again?

Bernard

 

Apparently, or we could just ignore them and let this (my) thread become full up with Unicorn Anti-HS2 fantasy railway planning. I guess that might prove useful, in watching them all disagree amongst themselves, about which of their fave routes or solutions should prevail, as time went on. Or, perhaps I should start a separate thread for that, so that they don't get blasted out of the atmosphere, each time a "new" idea surfaces....??

 

Be that as it may, the most dangerous protagonists are still those that espouse the Do Nothing option. They cite either a wistful desire for Britain to retreat to some Pre-Raphaelite cottage industry, where no-one strays far from their interlinked computer screens, or looms, or those (the majority I believe) who calmly claim that re-opening the Titfield branch, and similar, is all that is needed, and, radically, that this is so much more important. Thankfully, they are rarely to be seen on here now, although they still existed on the previous thread.

 

What is probably more at stake is whether HS2 can be built in parallel to the upgrading, or wholesale replacement, of existing, critical infrastructure. BoJo's pronouncement that Phase 2B is to be re-thought in parallel with the Northern East-West link, and with a tip to the Midlands Engine, is perhaps the most enlightened part of this whole thing. It makes sense, it only puts a year or so onto the timescales (depending on just how different those changes may have to be - I doubt it) and it "forces" TfN to reconsider their project in terms of what HS2 can do for them. It begins to resemble a Transport Strategy. God forbid.

 

But the very relevant complaints of mistreatment, mis-planning and poor behaviours of the existing, hopeless, over-consulted, badly managed, poorly conceived HS2 Ltd project (what have they been doing for 11 years???) and its contractors, should probably dominate for now. LMSForever and a few others, have genuine grievances, or at least, the grievances of others, to relate. We should continue to hear them and all join in the opprobrium, as though that will make much difference.

 

But that will all be fine when Andrew Stephenson, BoJo's new Minister for HS2, the Trans-Pennine Upgrade and the Northern Powerhouse Link, takes over. Clearly, he and his team will know so much more about how to run the schemes. He is an ex-insurance broker (family business) and party apparatchik after all, and, er, that's it. But, his understudy, Kelly Tolhurst, is much more able, having been something in boat building (family business) and then in marketing. So that's alright then.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

With Birmingham as it is, there's no real options to significantly increase capacity at any existing station (a couple of the dead end platforms at Moor St are not in use, and will by useful for suburban services, but it'll be marginal gains). So it has to be a new station of some description - it's a good job that the old Curzon Street site was a derelict wasteland, and right next to Moor St too.

 

 

Moor Street expansion has already been spoken for by TfWM for extra local services (A re-opened to passengers Camp Hill line, trains on the Derby line for local services out to such places as Tamworth etc.)

This would be done by chord lines to the N & S where the Camp Hill line crosses the GW line. Re-instating the unused fifth platform face and possibly building another opposite it, thus making four terminating and 2 through platforms, which would be twice as many as it originally had!

Edited February 21, 2020 by melmerby

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry, I thought the several exclamation marks would show that my mention of the GWR Snow Hill station was tongue in cheek. I am well aware of the restricted access from the south. It is interesting though to hear of the plans for expansion of services from Moor Street.

And back on HS2, it has concerned me too some of the comments made about HS2 and land acquisition. If it is as has as lmsforever suggests then the new minister needs to sort something out. But like Mike Storey says, with two politicians in charge with such impeccable track records (no need to groan) what can go wrong?

Jonathan

[Northmoor]

13 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

 

If the problem is congestion on the southern part of the WCML, so I would have built a new railway from the Rugby area to London, as well as four-tracking the section from Coventry to Birmingham and building a link to Leicester to link up with the MML, and also four-track the Welwyn bottleneck on the ECML. The new railway would have been four tracks in places to enable a local service south of Rugby, an area due for big housing developments that currently and after HS2 has no train service to London. The new railway would not have had a signalling system and loading gauge that means ordinary trains can't use it. Brunel tried that kind of "future-proofing" on the GWR. It didn't "end well" to use a phrase popular on here.

 

But that isn't the point. The point is that one group of people on here shout down and belittle anyone who doesn't conform to their thinking. I meet plenty of railway enthusiasts who think HS2 is wrong, but they're not on here because they don't want to be the target of derisive comments. 

To be fair, I have had my views informed (and changed) by contributors like Mike Storey and The Stationmaster because they have valuable and considerable knowledge and experience, not because they are enthusiasts.  Being a railway enthusiast qualifies you for nothing when it comes to building something like HS2.  In fact enthusiasts generally seem to be anti-HS2 precisely because it's new; we tend to hate and belittle everything before it's introduced because it's replacing what we're used to.

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, I thought the several exclamation marks would show that my mention of the GWR Snow Hill station was tongue in cheek. I am well aware of the restricted access from the south. It is interesting though to hear of the plans for expansion of services from Moor Street.

And back on HS2, it has concerned me too some of the comments made about HS2 and land acquisition. If it is as has as lmsforever suggests then the new minister needs to sort something out. But like Mike Storey says, with two politicians in charge with such impeccable track records (no need to groan) what can go wrong?

Jonathan

Just as aside the latest issue of Modern Railways has several features about thevWest Midlands including the plans forIIRC the Bordesley  chords which will connect the Camp Hill and N and S lines plus the plans for Moor St. Well worth a read.

 

Jamie

 

 

[lmsforever]

The  ongoing saga that is HS2   needs to be put under the microscope quickly as the attitude of management and spiralling costs with very little to show for it.With construction to be started soon a team needs to be put in place that will carry out the build in a sensertive manner this is one of the things that is worrying many people  ,at the moment they put out a bulldoze everyone out of the way attitude.The line is going to pass just over half a mile from my home and I think I should be worried .I hope the town will not be overrun with construction lorries as it is already in gridlock most of the day .Just driving across the town a distance of two miles usually takes over fifteen minutes or longer.I accept that it will happen but I want it built properly with compassion and car, that's not a lot to ask is it?

[Mike Storey]

2 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The  ongoing saga that is HS2   needs to be put under the microscope quickly as the attitude of management and spiralling costs with very little to show for it.With construction to be started soon a team needs to be put in place that will carry out the build in a sensertive manner this is one of the things that is worrying many people  ,at the moment they put out a bulldoze everyone out of the way attitude.The line is going to pass just over half a mile from my home and I think I should be worried .I hope the town will not be overrun with construction lorries as it is already in gridlock most of the day .Just driving across the town a distance of two miles usually takes over fifteen minutes or longer.I accept that it will happen but I want it built properly with compassion and car, that's not a lot to ask is it?

 

No, it isn't, although rather harder to put into effect. I note that one of the themes of BoJo's speech was to tackle that issue. I hope he meant it, BUT, I am not sure how it would be done without incurring yet more cost. That is not what you want to hear, but it is (probably) based in historical fact. Just read the Werrington Junction thread to see how that happens.

 

The "spiralling costs" as you put it, have mostly been incurred by increasing environmental and societal demands placed on the project over and above the original specification, plus a bit of land costs and contractual issues. But don't be fooled. Some greater understanding and face-to-face connection, does not cost a great deal, but it is unlikely to significantly change what you will go through during construction. That does not preclude you from complaint and pointing out the crueller aspects of it, but a major project does not, usually, win any local friends, at least until it is nearly over.

 

My largest project, the 2012 Games, was horrendous for many residents during construction. But those that survived not being re-located, were all chums as the day drew nearer, especially when we erected a number of things they asked for (usually sound, security or sight barriers, or some changes to public lighting), which were not actually our responsibility in most cases, and did not cost a great deal of our contingency funding, but were enough to please them, in the end. You might want to try this compromise approach, rather than change the entire intention. Just a suggestion, of course.

 

Conversely, in one of my earlier projects, multiple platform lengthening in Scotland, at one station, we were told to f-off in no uncertain terms. We had an absolute right to do what we were doing, and carried on regardless and just employed extra security guards. I didn't give a toss, and the residents got sweet FA. We got the job done, on time and on budget. But not my greatest moment......

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, I thought the several exclamation marks would show that my mention of the GWR Snow Hill station was tongue in cheek. I am well aware of the restricted access from the south. It is interesting though to hear of the plans for expansion of services from Moor Street.

 

I did actually realise that.

I was emphasising for others that may not know Birmingham that it was far from perfect, with only 4 through platforms, admittedly long ones and divided into two.

The first station only had two through platforms when at the same time New Street had four.

It always was less than ideal but much more pleasant for passengers than New Street.

 

The expansion of Moor St services is part of the Midlands Engine - Rail, Outline proposals here:

final-midlands-engine-rail-report.pdf

 

Some interesting things in there.

[billbedford]

It's all very talking about which airport you would prefer to travel to via HS2, but if you listen to some of the further reaches of government funded organisations, you may not have that choice. Or even any prospect of flying. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

It's all very talking about which airport you would prefer to travel to via HS2, but if you listen to some of the further reaches of government funded organisations, you may not have that choice. Or even any prospect of flying. 

A lot of fanciful nonsense in that report, that will cause the complete collapse of the economy, leading to mass unemployment and shortages of food and vital commodities. There will be very few trains running under their desired outcome.

 

 

.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, Northmoor said:

To be fair, I have had my views informed (and changed) by contributors like Mike Storey and The Stationmaster because they have valuable and considerable knowledge and experience, not because they are enthusiasts.  Being a railway enthusiast qualifies you for nothing when it comes to building something like HS2.  In fact enthusiasts generally seem to be anti-HS2 precisely because it's new; we tend to hate and belittle everything before it's introduced because it's replacing what we're used to.

 

Yes, I suppose that I am one of them. If I live long enough, I will make a trip on HS2. 

 

But after that, I may well revert to the traditional railway route because I will find the journey more interesting.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Meanwhile, on the environmental protest front, Extinction Rebellion are planning to hold mass protests against HS2, involving blockades and protests at work sites and even more radical acts of disruption and sabotage.

Other similar, or linked groups have similar plans to stop any new line being built across the Pennines.

 

 

.

[corneliuslundie]

While I have great sympathy with the overall aims of ER, this kind of action actually goes against what they are trying to achieve. No more new railways would inevitably lead to more road traffic (until the oil ran out as there seems to be no alternative to the diesel engine). And that is not what they want. They do not seem to be able to see the big picture any better than most of our politicians.

I assume that none of the ER group ever use any oil based products, eat any food which has been imported great distances after being grown at great environmental cost, wear clothes made from man made fabrics etc etc etc!

These are very difficult questions but simplistic answers are not useful.

There is of course a sound argument that we should be restructuring society to make travel less necessary, especially long distance commuting. But that is another issue for another thread.

One genuine question. How much of the "inflation" of the HS2 project is actually simply an increase in the "uncertainty" contingency required by the Treasury (now 40% I believe) since the first estimates were published?

Jonathan

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

While I have great sympathy with the overall aims of ER, this kind of action actually goes against what they are trying to achieve. 

 

That depends on whether you believe that ER is really what it purports to be. There seems to be very little transparency about how ER is organised and how it makes its choices about where and how to demonstrate.

In this, it is remarkably like ISIS/Daesh. That was/is seen as religion-based organisation and that is how it recruited its foot troops. But at the top, just a mafia of guys enriching themselves while enjoying themselves in a very unislamic manner. 

[DY444]

13 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I will not waste space by repeating all of your post.

Alternatively the people you are adressing could read up on why Crossrail to Tring was quickly abandoned as an alternative idea.

Do we really  have to humour these people by going over these rejected schemes again and again?

Bernard

 

It seems we do given the number of times that lazy old trope of "just widen the existing routes" is trotted out by people who think that all railways only go through open countryside.  

[DY444]

34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Meanwhile, on the environmental protest front, Extinction Rebellion are planning to hold mass protests against HS2, involving blockades and protests at work sites and even more radical acts of disruption and sabotage.

Other similar, or linked groups have similar plans to stop any new line being built across the Pennines.

 

Which will be their undoing because it will show again that all they are really interested in is the disruption and not their stated objective. 

[black and decker boy]

10 hours ago, lmsforever said:

The  ongoing saga that is HS2   needs to be put under the microscope quickly as the attitude of management and spiralling costs with very little to show for it.With construction to be started soon a team needs to be put in place that will carry out the build in a sensertive manner this is one of the things that is worrying many people  ,at the moment they put out a bulldoze everyone out of the way attitude.The line is going to pass just over half a mile from my home and I think I should be worried .I hope the town will not be overrun with construction lorries as it is already in gridlock most of the day .Just driving across the town a distance of two miles usually takes over fifteen minutes or longer.I accept that it will happen but I want it built properly with compassion and car, that's not a lot to ask is it?

HS2 delivery routes are prescribed within their planning permission submissions.

 

around Aylesbury that means using the A413 to the south and A41 to the north. The A4010 being a reserve route.

 

however, HS2 is not the only show in town and it’s likely that the Aylesbury Garden Town housebuilders & road builders are going to use the A418 east & west as well.

 

Between AGT, the new Orbital roads and HS2, Aylesbury is going to be seeing ALOT of roadworks and extra HGVs for at least the next 5 years, maybe 10.

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A lot of fanciful nonsense in that report, that will cause the complete collapse of the economy, leading to mass unemployment and shortages of food and vital commodities. There will be very few trains running under their desired outcome.

 

Yes, but don't forget that Climate Change legislation went through Parliament without any opposition, so none of the intentions are going to change until MPs realise it could cost them their seats. There could be a lot of damage done to the country before that happens. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by billbedford

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

That depends on whether you believe that ER is really what it purports to be. There seems to be very little transparency about how ER is organised and how it makes its choices about where and how to demonstrate.

In this, it is remarkably like ISIS/Daesh. That was/is seen as religion-based organisation and that is how it recruited its foot troops. But at the top, just a mafia of guys enriching themselves while enjoying themselves in a very unislamic manner. 

 

I am a tree hugger and think society faces a fundamental transition on multiple levels. The matter of tail pipe emissions is just one part of a much bigger transition and probably not the biggest challenge we face.

 

However I do have serious concerns at the corporate governance of NGOs and the behaviours of certain of them. One of the key messages they promote which I agree with is that we should listen to scientists and there should be evidence based and rational policy making.  No sensible person could disagree with that. However they are as guilty as climate change deniers of being selective and blatant confirmation bias and some of the reports I see from green NGOs either display incompetence or deliberate misrepresentation of facts. We should hold all elements of a debate accountable. 

[Zomboid]

I generally sympathise with the broad aims of the green lobby, but the likes of Greenpeace and XR seem to object to everything and want society to stop just about everything instantly. Which would be nice if we could, but it's sufficiently unrealistic that it loses the whole organisation and movement credibility.

 

The focus needs to be on better, rather than perfect if they're to take society with them.

[APOLLO]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

It's all very talking about which airport you would prefer to travel to via HS2, but if you listen to some of the further reaches of government funded organisations, you may not have that choice. Or even any prospect of flying. 

 

Interesting and very frightening document Bill. Most of which just wont happen. Page 5 shows all you need to know. Close all airports bar Heathrow Glasgow & Belfast ? Somebody tell 'em up at Manchester where airport development is a continuous activity.

ALL shipping declines to Zero (and we are an Island nation !!).  Massively increase wind farms ? (OK but we will be ultra dependent on winds - no use on a calm day mid winter !!).

 

Crackpot report - Not only are we all staring into an Abyss, we are jumping into it.

 

No gas use at all by 2050 ?. I have spent all my working  career in the Gas industry supervising / planning of new and replacement gas mains for over forty years. In the UK £Billions has been spent over the years just replacing old cast iron mains with plastic, Lots of new customers  / infill sites / villages etc have been connected over the years also. On a cold winters night (5pm max load) stand alongside a pressure breakdown station where the high pressure gas is reduced in pressure to feed local medium and low pressure local networks - just listen to the scream of gas, and you can actually feel the pipes vibrate such is the load - virtually EVERY town in the UK has one, larger towns two or more, cities have several. Replace all of these with wind generated electricity ???? --AND I've not yet even mentioned the CCGT  gas powered electricity generation plants which are fed direct from the national gas grid. which power 50% or more of electricity generation on less windy days.

 

Here's something controversial - guys n gals, The yearly issued "BP Strategic Energy review 2019 , used as a source of reference in the industry

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/business-sites/en/global/corporate/pdfs/energy-economics/statistical-review/bp-stats-review-2019-full-report.pdf

 

Page 14 bottom  - Oil World, known reserves the R/P ratio (known reserves to production) 50 years

Page 30 bottom  - Natural gas - World R/P ratio 50.9 years

Page 42 bottom  - Coal - World R/P ratio 132 years (this will go up as we burn less - as will oil & nat gas above)

 

Now they add R/P s for key minerals for energy transition.

 

Cobalt 42 years

Natural Graphite 342 years

Lithium 225 years

Rare Earths 701 years

 

Funny isn't it that we will (!!!!!!!!!!!!) "decarbonise" just about the same time as our Oil & Gas reserves are virtually depleted - the years 2050 / 70

 

Is Oil / Nat Gas depletion in 50 or so years time the REAL cause of the huge shove to go green / decarbonise ?  ---  I wouldn't dare say yes - but its a co-incidence of dates and actions - An Inconvenient Truth ?

 

Oh - and someone (Greeta !!) tell India (with its rapidly rising population) & China (with its rapid industrialisation & modernisation) the above.

 

Edited to add - Crack on with HS2 also - the full monty !!!!

 

Brit15

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by APOLLO

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Which will be their undoing because it will show again that all they are really interested in is the disruption and not their stated objective. 

There's a core group of hard-left demonstrators who turn up to all these rallies - climate change, pro-Palestine, anti-austerity, etc etc.  Their understanding of each issue is probably limited. In fact their understanding of everything is probably a bit limited.