HS2

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I was amazed at the time when it was announced  that the wires would go north of Preston as I was sure that government would stop it.HS2 will probably not go north of Crewe due to lack of money meantime I will happily join the wcml at MK for my trips to Scotland.

 

Even just doing the London to Crewe section will make a massive difference to the southern section of the WCML which is bursting at the seems and cannot take any more trains - even though there is plenty of demand for them.

[Ron Ron Ron]

20 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

He certainly likes spending large amounts of other peoples' money. 

Don’t they all ?

 

 

.

[jonny777]

12 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Even just doing the London to Crewe section will make a massive difference to the southern section of the WCML which is bursting at the seems and cannot take any more trains - even though there is plenty of demand for them.

 

A small part of that might be due to the routing of freightliner trains heading for Felixstowe down the WCML and across North London. 

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

A small part of that might be due to the routing of freightliner trains heading for Felixstowe down the WCML and across North London. 

 

Actually since the construction of the east to north curve at Ipswich , most West Midlands / northwest to Felixstowe trains do avoid London.

 

The ones that remain on the WCML tend to be flows between Felixstowe and Daventry. To reach the latter from Nuneaton requires a run round procedure and potentially crossing the WCML on the flat (north of Rugby along the Trent valley the fast lines are in the middle, not to one side) and thus going via London is still preferred.

 

 

 

 

[EmporiaSub]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

There's a report on the BBC website about somebody griping that HS2 offers absolutely no benefit to Wales.

 

Primary school level geography lessons not a complete waste of money, then.

 

John

More like 'Wales = Cardiff'.....

[Mike Storey]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Just found this - The Oakervee review into HS2. 130 pages.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/864842/oakervee-review.pdf

 

Brit15

 

 

 

This is fascinating stuff. Although I have not (yet) read all 130 pages, the elements of sections 2.8 to 2.11 could have been pasted and copied onto Boris' announcement today.

 

The Exec summary goes deeper into the reasons for these, but the one issue I believe could become problematic is 3.9 - a recommendation to make the Euston development and approach a separate organisation to HS2 Ltd. I can see where Oakervee is coming from on this (and he is suggesting that Old Oak Common be used as a temporary terminus until the Euston problem is solved, by virtue of a further study), but this could become a recipe for doing very little, very slowly (as happened with the development of Kings Cross, outside the railway infrastructure)....

Edited February 11, 2020 by Mike Storey

[jonny777]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Actually since the construction of the east to north curve at Ipswich , most West Midlands / northwest to Felixstowe trains do avoid London.

 

The ones that remain on the WCML tend to be flows between Felixstowe and Daventry. To reach the latter from Nuneaton requires a run round procedure and potentially crossing the WCML on the flat (north of Rugby along the Trent valley the fast lines are in the middle, not to one side) and thus going via London is still preferred.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's good to know; but sadly my mad suggestions are not yet satisfied. 

 

For somewhat less than the cost of HS2, the line between Ely and Peterborough could be quadrupled and electrified; and the walkers and Peak District preservationists could be bought out and the line from Great Rocks to Matlock be reinstated as a freight line - then extra capacity would be generated. Oh, and why not reinstate the four track MML in the Sharnbrook area?

[Bernard Lamb]

15 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

This is fascinating stuff. Although I have not (yet) read all 130 pages, the elements of sections 2.8 to 2.11 could have been pasted and copied onto Boris' announcement today.

 

The Exec summary goes deeper into the reasons for these, but the one issue I believe could become problematic is 3.9 - a recommendation to make the Euston development and approach a separate organisation to HS2 Ltd. I can see where Oakervee is coming from on this (and he is suggesting that Old Oak Common be used as a temporary terminus until the Euston problem is solved, by virtue of a further study), but this could become a recipe for doing very little, very slowly (as happened with the development of Kings Cross, outside the railway infrastructure)....

The Euston situation was mentioned on the London area news and included the comment re using Old Oak as a temporary terminus.

The reaction of people running local businesses was not exactly favourable. The idea of Euston being so far behind that not opening with the rest of the line was being seriously discussed did not go down well. It does not exactly inspire me either.

Bernard 

[jamie92208]

22 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

Why not reinstate the four track MML in the Sharnbrook area?

That's already nearly done as part of the electrification to Corby.

 

Jamie

[Mike Storey]

This reply from one D. Cummings, just emphasises how close we are to a democratic failure. Thank goodness he did not get his way on HS2.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/dominic-cummings-answers-hs2-questions-with-pj-masks-quotes

 

It is the remark that "PJ Masks" would do better than the collective decision of the entire Cabinet, that riles me.

 

[royaloak]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

There's a report on the BBC website about somebody griping that HS2 offers absolutely no benefit to Wales.

 

Primary school level geography lessons not a complete waste of money, then.

 

John

It does the square root of naff all for us in the sunny South West either, but then it was never intended too.

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Just found this - The Oakervee review into HS2. 130 pages.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/864842/oakervee-review.pdf

 

Brit15

 

 

Without looking is this the 'we dont want HS2 so write a report with the conclusion it doesnt fix anything and is far too expensive' report?

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Even just doing the London to Crewe section will make a massive difference to the southern section of the WCML which is bursting at the seems and cannot take any more trains - even though there is plenty of demand for them.

Which is the whole point of HS2.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

 

This is fascinating stuff. Although I have not (yet) read all 130 pages, the elements of sections 2.8 to 2.11 could have been pasted and copied onto Boris' announcement today.

 

The Exec summary goes deeper into the reasons for these, but the one issue I believe could become problematic is 3.9 - a recommendation to make the Euston development and approach a separate organisation to HS2 Ltd. I can see where Oakervee is coming from on this (and he is suggesting that Old Oak Common be used as a temporary terminus until the Euston problem is solved, by virtue of a further study), but this could become a recipe for doing very little, very slowly (as happened with the development of Kings Cross, outside the railway infrastructure)....

It might also be a rather clever stroke.  once HS2 gets to Old oak Common everybody will be clamouring for it to go to 'a proper station somewhere'.  So we're back in the WCML electrification approach to the job of starting with something which sounds rather good but because it's there it has to go to London.  and lots of folk will hardly consider Old oak Common to be 'London' even if it connects with Crossrail.  Then bung a couple of o tower blocks on top of the Euston station plan to add in some additional commercial development and improve the financial case to go with what travellers want.  'Old Oak Common for the north' doesn't have much of a ring to iti

 

what I think might now be inevitable, provided the right management is put in charge of the scheme, is that it will in any case follow the same course as CTRL/HS1 with bits & pieces quietly taken out to reduce the cost and enable people to say that it was delivered on budget (although I'm not entirely sure which budget that might be).  That slight of hand worked quite well on CTRL with people still not necessarily noticing what was taken out and it saveda lot of money - just teh same might happen with, in particular, the section south of Old Oak Common but no doubt with all sorts of savings here & there along the whole route.

[woodenhead]

Rename Old Oak as 'West London International'

• Find a way to get a couple of Eurostar services start from there
• terminate all the IEP expresses there
• regular shuttles to Heathrow & Gatwick plus Crossrail
• Plus HS2

Sounds like a whole new district of London to build on and make money off.

 

Euston, that's old London.

 

Note: I am not being serious......or do I have a crystal ball

[APOLLO]

Old Oak Common - far to posh - The new station should be named after its actual location ---  London Wormwood Scrubs !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

This reply from one D. Cummings, just emphasises how close we are to a democratic failure. Thank goodness he did not get his way on HS2.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/dominic-cummings-answers-hs2-questions-with-pj-masks-quotes

 

It is the remark that "PJ Masks" would do better than the collective decision of the entire Cabinet, that riles me.

 

Nothing changes in Grauniad land then.

[Northmoor]

I've invented a new acronym today.  It's appropriate to many objectors not just to HS2, but to so many developments in the UK.  NIMBYs may support the idea but so long as it's not too near them - hence NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard.

My acronym is for people who don't like something so rubbish the entire concept so that those who will benefit, can't have it either. Hence:

YoSHIE = You Shan't Have It Either

 

Enjoy and remember where you read it first, everyone.  Goodnight.

[lmsforever]

The protesters will keep on  and hopefully get some benifitial changes also I hope that the contracors will be fully supervised so as to contain costs somewhat under control.Also they should start paying the people who have been evicted already ,friend of mine has had cameras on site plus harassment and they have only just offered some money  .Allrequests for full payment have been ignored and he is not alone many other people in same situation in Bucks .

[lmsforever]

3 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I've invented a new acronym today.  It's appropriate to many objectors not just to HS2, but to so many developments in the UK.  NIMBYs may support t e idea but so long as it's not too near them - hence NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard.

My acronym is for people who don't like something so rubbish the entire concept so that those who will benefit, can't have it either. Hence:

YoSHIE = You Shan't Have It Either

 

Enjoy and remember where you read it first, everyone.  Goodnight.

I will let you know what its like when work starts  and what the noise levels are like when trains run  unlike you its extremely close to me.

[Railpassion]

Good news for the railway today. Now we need to electrify the rest of the mainline network. 

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Railpassion said:

Good news for the railway today. Now we need to electrify the rest of the mainline network. 

 

Great idea, except that HS2 will have gobbled up all the money. They can't even afford to finish the GWML and MML works and so lumbered everyone with those stupid bi-modes.

 

QWill someone please tell me why building a new HS railway in England costs 3x the price of similar lines in France, Germany, etc. Can it all be down to incompetence and corruption?

 

 

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

Great idea, except that HS2 will have gobbled up all the money. They can't even afford to finish the GWML and MML works and so lumbered everyone with those stupid bi-modes.

 

QWill someone please tell me why building a new HS railway in England costs 3x the price of similar lines in France, Germany, etc. Can it all be down to incompetence and corruption?

 

 

 

Well, part of it will be land costs and all that extra tunneling so some of the influential people don't have to look at it.

[Wheres_Wally]

3 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

 

QWill someone please tell me why building a new HS railway in England costs 3x the price of similar lines in France, Germany, etc. Can it all be down to incompetence and corruption?

 

 

 

1) It's coming out of one of the most expensive cities in the world and travels through a lot of very expensive bits of land. Abroad, much of the track was laid in relatively clear, and therefore cheap areas. We don't have those in the UK.

 

2) The French want progress. Local mayors competed to have lines in their districts. We compete to live in the 1930s.

 

3) The British are rubbish at stuff. 

 

It hurts to agree with Boris, but when he said all major projects go through the stage of everyone hating them, he's right. I bet no-one can name any significant project that enjoyed universal appeal pretty much until it was finished. No motorway did. Even the Olympics was loathed until about 2 weeks before it kicked off.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Wheres_Wally

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

 

1) It's coming out of one of the most expensive cities in the world and travels through a lot of very expensive bits of land. Abroad, much of the track was laid in relatively clear, and therefore cheap areas. We don't have those in the UK.

 

2) The French want progress. Local mayors competed to have lines in their districts. We compete to live in the 1930s.

 

3) The British are rubbish at stuff. 

 

It hurts to agree with Boris, but when he said all major projects go through the stage of everyone hating them, he's right. I bet no-one can name any significant project that enjoyed universal appeal pretty much until it was finished. No motorway did. Even the Olympics was loathed until about 2 weeks before it kicked off.

I agree with all of that except (3).

 

The British at the sharp end of such projects are mainly rather good at what they do but the politicians take forever to take decisions (and seem incapable of sticking to them) on anything that's going to take more than one parliament to complete. Then, when the next lot (even if from the same party) take over, they insist on revisiting it to ensure a share of any kudos for themselves and reduce any accruing to the previous bunch. The truth is, of course, is that all they achieve is additional delay and cost.

 

I can remember the (only half joking) references in the industry to "Thameslink 3000", and if Crossrail had been handled properly when the idea was first floated, we'd be celebrating its twentieth birthday around the time it's actually likely to be fully open.

 

John

Edited February 12, 2020 by Dunsignalling
Italicised addition to make sense of sentence