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6 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I've invented a new acronym today.  It's appropriate to many objectors not just to HS2, but to so many developments in the UK.  NIMBYs may support the idea but so long as it's not too near them - hence NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard.

My acronym is for people who don't like something so rubbish the entire concept so that those who will benefit, can't have it either. Hence:

YoSHIE = You Shan't Have It Either

 

Enjoy and remember where you read it first, everyone.  Goodnight.

I like BANANA: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything.

 

Not my original idea, obviously...

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9 hours ago, jonny777 said:

For somewhat less than the cost of HS2, the line between Ely and Peterborough could be quadrupled and electrified; and the walkers and Peak District preservationists could be bought out and the line from Great Rocks to Matlock be reinstated as a freight line - then extra capacity would be generated

Which will do what to help with the lack of capacity on the Southern end of the WCML/ MML/ ECML?

 

A new railway through a national park is about the most controversial idea anyone could suggest.

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9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It might also be a rather clever stroke.  once HS2 gets to Old oak Common everybody will be clamouring for it to go to 'a proper station somewhere'.  So we're back in the WCML electrification approach to the job of starting with something which sounds rather good but because it's there it has to go to London.  and lots of folk will hardly consider Old oak Common to be 'London' even if it connects with Crossrail.  Then bung a couple of o tower blocks on top of the Euston station plan to add in some additional commercial development and improve the financial case to go with what travellers want.  'Old Oak Common for the north' doesn't have much of a ring to iti

 

what I think might now be inevitable, provided the right management is put in charge of the scheme, is that it will in any case follow the same course as CTRL/HS1 with bits & pieces quietly taken out to reduce the cost and enable people to say that it was delivered on budget (although I'm not entirely sure which budget that might be).  That slight of hand worked quite well on CTRL with people still not necessarily noticing what was taken out and it saveda lot of money - just teh same might happen with, in particular, the section south of Old Oak Common but no doubt with all sorts of savings here & there along the whole route.

 

I have not seen detailed plans for Euston but I had assumed that there would be commercial development above the platforms.

 

Likewise at Curzon Street, do we really need a conventional overall roof these days on an electrified railway? Surely  better to get someone else to pay for shelter for the platforms.

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2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I agree with all of that except (3).

 

The British at the sharp end of such projects are mainly rather good at what they do but the politicians take forever to take decisions (and sticking to them) on anything that's going to take more than one parliament to complete. Then, when the next lot (even if from the same party) take over, they insist on revisiting it to ensure a share of any kudos for themselves and reduce any accruing to the previous bunch. The truth is, of course, is that all they achieve is additional delay and cost.

 

I can remember the (only half joking) references in the industry to "Thameslink 3000", and if Crossrail had been handled properly when the idea was first floated, we'd be celebrating its twentieth birthday around the time it's actually likely to be fully open.

 

John

 

Absolutely right. Go to any major infrastructure project in the world and there will be UK input at some stage. Every civil engineer I know has spent periods of their career abroad, some of them an entire career. Same for heating and lighting.

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7 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

QWill someone please tell me why building a new HS railway in England costs 3x the price of similar lines in France, Germany, etc. Can it all be down to incompetence and corruption?

 

That was answered in the video posed on page 3 of this thread:

Most foreign countries set up separate projects for stations, each with their pwn budgets so much of the total cost gets diverted to these. This makes it difficult for the media to find the true total cost.

HS2 has not been budgeted as 1 big project.

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20 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have not seen detailed plans for Euston but I had assumed that there would be commercial development above the platforms.

 

Likewise at Curzon Street, do we really need a conventional overall roof these days on an electrified railway? Surely  better to get someone else to pay for shelter for the platforms.

I am no authority on such things, but the majority of the Shinkansen stations I visited had plenty of shopping opportunities, mostly underneath the platforms (as the railway was mostly elevated). Overall roofs above it all were relatively common, too, but they also had plenty of normal canopies. I believe Curzon Street will be built in a similar manner, with the elevated railway and a shopping centre underneath.

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4 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I am no authority on such things, but the majority of the Shinkansen stations I visited had plenty of shopping opportunities, mostly underneath the platforms (as the railway was mostly elevated). Overall roofs above it all were relatively common, too, but they also had plenty of normal canopies. I believe Curzon Street will be built in a similar manner, with the elevated railway and a shopping centre underneath.

 

Yes, I have seen some artists' impressions of Curzon St which show shops, bars, etc in an undercroft. So far so good. But why not put offices, hotel, student accommodation above as well?

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2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Which will do what to help with the lack of capacity on the Southern end of the WCML/ MML/ ECML?

 

A new railway through a national park is about the most controversial idea anyone could suggest.

 

'A new railway through a national park' is somewhat over-hyping the situation, don't you think? 

 

The trackbed is (mercifully) still there, and most of it is in tunnels. Despite the nonsense about only Daventry freight services using the southern WCML to Felixstowe; I looked last night and there were a number of Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow freightliners still going that way to reach London Gateway.

 

Re-routing those will save a few paths on the WCML, surely?  

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21 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have not seen detailed plans for Euston but I had assumed that there would be commercial development above the platforms.

 

Likewise at Curzon Street, do we really need a conventional overall roof these days on an electrified railway? Surely  better to get someone else to pay for shelter for the platforms.

You mean like Euston & Birmingham New St which have a parcels depot & shopping centre above?

I don't mean that negatively though. I am one of the few who prefer these places like Paddington which as a passenger, I find to be a nasty place. Sure, the latter may have a nice roof, but this was built to clear steam away & as a result makes the whole station cold, dark & draughty.

Euston & New St are able to have separate concourses, which are bright, clean, warm & dry but big & close enough to the platforms so you can wait there instead, minimising your waiting time on the platform itself.

I was in New St last week for the first time in about 25 years. When I emerged from the platform I was amazed with the place.

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11 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I am no authority on such things, but the majority of the Shinkansen stations I visited had plenty of shopping opportunities, mostly underneath the platforms (as the railway was mostly elevated). Overall roofs above it all were relatively common, too, but they also had plenty of normal canopies. I believe Curzon Street will be built in a similar manner, with the elevated railway and a shopping centre underneath.

Correct.

 

with 4500+km experience from my last Japan trip under my belt I can confirm that Japanese Shinkansen Stations in major cities are a hub for:

 

1. Hotels on a large scale (so business and travelling folk stay there)

2. Huge Shopping and food precincts above and more significantly (like rabbit warrens) below ground extending out in some cases for city blocks

3. Office space, usually in the same structures as the hotels

 

JR even owns (or has naming rights) on many of the Hotels.

 

It is an integrated solution that extends to the many private (non-JR) Railway companies that have their own setups (as per 1-3 above) around their own stations that usually butt onto the JR station complex.

 

It's all been figured out, just needs to have the best bits incorporated into HS-2.

 

 

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"Rebuilding" the line through the peak district after decades of closure would need to be to modern standards, and whatever the modern requirements are. I'm sure that some 150 year old earthworks would be useable, maybe some of the bridges and tunnels would be, but this would be like the borders railway; a brand new construction on a historic alignment.

 

And yes, getting some freights off the WCML would save a few paths. But we need more than a few 75mph non-stop paths on the slow lines to solve the capacity problems.

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8 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

Great idea, except that HS2 will have gobbled up all the money. They can't even afford to finish the GWML and MML works and so lumbered everyone with those stupid bi-modes.

 

 

They can afford to finish the GWML and MML, but those projects reached a critical point which is  'X miles from London' .  (Abandonment of the extension to Cardiff was one purely political exception which no MP dare consider). 

 

X is something of an enigmatic variable, but when an infrastructure project reaches it, Westminster suddenly loses interest in favour of other willy-waving vanity ideas which are closer to London.

 

I wonder what the value of X will be for HS2? 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Yes, I have seen some artists' impressions of Curzon St which show shops, bars, etc in an undercroft. So far so good. But why not put offices, hotel, student accommodation above as well?

 

Visit the mainline platforms at Wembley Central, to see why not.

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1 minute ago, jonny777 said:

 

They can afford to finish the GWML and MML, but those projects reached a critical point which is  'X miles from London' .  (Abandonment of the extension to Cardiff was one purely political exception which no MP dare consider). 

 

X is something of an enigmatic variable, but when an infrastructure project reaches it, Westminster suddenly loses interest in favour of other willy-waving vanity ideas which are closer to London.

 

I wonder what the value of X will be for HS2? 

 

 

 

 

Same as it's ever been, where the hundred minute commute runs out.

 

John

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16 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

'A new railway through a national park' is somewhat over-hyping the situation, don't you think? 

 

The trackbed is (mercifully) still there, and most of it is in tunnels. Despite the nonsense about only Daventry freight services using the southern WCML to Felixstowe; I looked last night and there were a number of Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow freightliners still going that way to reach London Gateway.

 

Re-routing those will save a few paths on the WCML, surely?  

And how would you re-route them? Whilst Felixstowe and Southampton may be reached by several routes, London Gateway is only accessible via the LT&S. At the London end, trains for north-of-London have to cross the Great Eastern main line on the flat at Stratford

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3 minutes ago, Trog said:

 

Visit the mainline platforms at Wembley Central, to see why not.

 

That was the 1960s. Not the best era of British architecture.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the traditional trainshed. It evokes pride in the railway. My favourite station is probably Liverpool Street where they made such a great job of integrating old with new.

 

But on a project like HS2, there is real need to recoup some of the costs and commercial development is the way to do that (as the Metropolitan knew all those years ago). I would suggest leaving more headroom above the tracks (for maintenance as well as aesthetics) and also that modern lighting technology can make these underground environments far more liveable than they used to be.

 

I still believe that there should be an HS2 station at Calvert to connect to the East-West line and serve as the hub for new development there. But it would need a long stretch of 4-track railway for the trains stopping there not to have too much impact on the overall line capacity.

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2 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

And how would you re-route them? Whilst Felixstowe and Southampton may be reached by several routes, London Gateway is only accessible via the LT&S. At the London end, trains for north-of-London have to cross the Great Eastern main line on the flat at Stratford

 

They do at present. But other routes through London could be possible with some engineering expenditure.

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8 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

And how would you re-route them? Whilst Felixstowe and Southampton may be reached by several routes, London Gateway is only accessible via the LT&S. At the London end, trains for north-of-London have to cross the Great Eastern main line on the flat at Stratford

 

Some of them do, some of then use the GOBLIN from South Tottenham to Barking. That is when its working. If they do use that route they can use electric traction all the way, not that many freights do. 

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24 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

'A new railway through a national park' is somewhat over-hyping the situation, don't you think? 

 

The trackbed is (mercifully) still there, and most of it is in tunnels. Despite the nonsense about only Daventry freight services using the southern WCML to Felixstowe; I looked last night and there were a number of Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow freightliners still going that way to reach London Gateway.

 

Re-routing those will save a few paths on the WCML, surely?  


If you didn’t watch Channel 5’s programme on the line on Sunday,I suggest you do so.Indeed the trackbed is still there and yes,your idea has been aired in the latter part of the last century as part of IIRC a so called strategic rail plan.Obviously,nothing came of it..

     The Peak District National Park is the first of its kind in the UK.Tourism,including those who flock daily on foot and on bikes to The Monsal Trail provides for many of its residents the only source of income from what is an isolated rural community.Other than that,it’s farming or a commute to Sheffield,Manchester or Derby daily.

Development of a railway of any credible form there now would in all probability cause both environmental and economic mayhem.

 

There is of course the alternative TransPeak route which is still in daily use.

 

Might be interesting to reflect on what the Victorian philosopher and thinker John Ruskin had to say about the line when its construction was first proposed.

 

 But yes...your idea has been considered.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

 

1) It's coming out of one of the most expensive cities in the world and travels through a lot of very expensive bits of land. Abroad, much of the track was laid in relatively clear, and therefore cheap areas. We don't have those in the UK.

 

The French LGVs Nord and Sud Est both come out of Paris – also one of the most expensive cities in the world – but they manage to use existing infrastructure for the first stretch without seeming to compromise performance.

 

5 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

 

2) The French want progress. Local mayors competed to have lines in their districts. We compete to live in the 1930s.

 

The Mayors of the northern city-Regions are also keen to have new high speed infrastructure. They seem pretty desperate to get a slice of the 'progress' action.

 

5 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

 

3) The British are rubbish at stuff. 

 

 

Can't disagree with that! I think of the early days of satellite broadcasting as a paradigm of the English disease: BSB arguably had superior technology to Sky. They also had a very swank HQ in central London to accommodate lots of overpaid men-in-suits – and b*gger-all content. Sky, on the other hand, was cheap and cheerful, operated out of a shed near Heathrow, and had signed up lots of sports rights and other popular stuff as they realised that content is king.

 

HS2 seems to be beset with legions of 'consultants' all competing to push up the costs...

 

 

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Re Wales, yes read Cardiff. Apparently a academic "transport expert". My first reaction was that he has obviously only seen the map of Wales "as seen from Cardiff" published in the County Times a while ago - a large hole covering the whole of Powys and Ceredigion, with a narrow strip across the top, but otherwise nothing north of Brecon. Improved services on the WCML to Birmingham will directly benefit mid Wales as that is where we pick up London bound trains.

The "expert" apparently told the Welsh Assembly that HS2 would be a £200 million (or was it billion?) disbenefit to South Wales. Presumably not too much benefit either to East Anglia, the South West (already mentioned), the North East etc. My reading is that it is just posturing  by the Welsh Assembly to try to get some money out of Boris for some scheme they currently can't afford. Of course that will have absolutely no effect since Cardiff is run by Labour.

BTW don't the Welsh Assembly want transport in Wales devolved? 

Jonathan

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30 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

And how would you re-route them? Whilst Felixstowe and Southampton may be reached by several routes, London Gateway is only accessible via the LT&S. At the London end, trains for north-of-London have to cross the Great Eastern main line on the flat at Stratford

 

I realise I am showing my ignorance here, but couldn't they go via Barking to Gospel Oak? 

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9 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:


If you didn’t watch Channel 5’s programme on the line on Sunday,I suggest you do so.Indeed the trackbed is still there and yes,your idea has been aired in the latter part of the last century as part of IIRC a so called strategic rail plan.Obviously,nothing came of it..

     The Peak District National Park is the first of its kind in the UK.Tourism,including those who flock daily on foot and on bikes to The Monsal Trail provides for many of its residents the only source of income from what is an isolated rural community.Other than that,it’s farming or a commute to Sheffield,Manchester or Derby daily.

Development of a railway of any credible form there now would in all probability cause both environmental and economic mayhem.

 

 

 

 

 

And the environmental mayhem caused by HS2 is somehow acceptable? 

 

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