HS2

[runs as required]

Instead of going down the A1(M) ,across on the M18, then down the M1 to London,

I'd like my children and grand children to stay connected via Line 1, go off to mainland Continental Europe on Line 2,   Bristol and South Wales via Line 4 in the post-pandemic "New Normal" world we created.

 

The Lines can have whatever fancy name and lurid livery skins the current operators favour, but the Line numbers  are the basic network we all think of first.

 

[Mike Storey]

Some thoughts from the Continent - up to 350 kph - and interestingly, the UK is left out.

 

https://www.thelocal.fr/20200619/paris-to-berlin-in-just-four-hours-on-proposed-european-ultra-rapid-train-network?utm_source=piano&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=213&tpcc=newsletter_members&pnespid=l7ExsqMFFxaNTemwNb6Inw3pj5v5pdXQDfUOnY0

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Some thoughts from the Continent - up to 350 kph - and interestingly, the UK is left out.

 

 

Maybe because we aren't in the EU?

350kph was around the design speed for HS2

[Zomboid]

HS2 is aligned for 400kph maximum speed

[Grovenor]

Quote

 

The plan proposes four lines.

1. Paris to Dublin - from Paris to Brest, taking the Brest-Cork ferry then running from Cork to Dublin. The report describes this route as 'taking on an additional significance in the context of Brexit'.

 

Having a ferry for half the distance is going to spoil the effect, or can someone come up with a 350 kph ferryboat?

[pete_mcfarlane]

29 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Having a ferry for half the distance is going to spoil the effect, or can someone come up with a 350 kph ferryboat?

A cynic would say that the French and Germans have decided to spend a huge wad of EU money on new lines in Mainland Europe (mainly in France and Germany), and have thrown a few crumbs at the geographically peripheral EU states to keep them happy. There's a similar ferry based scheme for Malta. 

 

Unless they really are planning to use Ekranoplans. Good luck with one of these on a rough day in the channel.

 

 

 

[caradoc]

12 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Having a ferry for half the distance is going to spoil the effect, or can someone come up with a 350 kph ferryboat?

 

And is a 350 kph line from Cork to Dublin really part of the plan too ? !!!

 

[Fat Controller]

I just registered 'running from Cork to Dublin' Usian Bolt had better watch out.

[black and decker boy]

The application to Appeal in Camden over the shallow tunnels has been rejected.

[pete_mcfarlane]

It feels like these people automatically appeal because they didn't like the verdict, rather than there being any genuine legal grounds to do so. 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

It feels like these people automatically appeal because they didn't like the verdict, rather than there being any genuine legal grounds to do so. 

Yes and they always say the inspector/judge/chairman has completely ignored their evidence.  This is rather insulting, the person concerned has usually had to weigh up a considerable body of submissions, reject those which were clearly fanciful, those based on emotions not facts, and make a decision based on that which constituted actual evidence. 

Just because that impartial professional didn't arrive at the conclusion you wanted, doesn't mean they did their job wrong.  It usually just means they did it impartially, which the person appealing would obviously have been incapable of doing.

It's like disagreeing with democracy because you didn't get the exact election result you wanted.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Northmoor

[Ron Ron Ron]

Timelapse video of demolition works at Euston Station, in preparation for redeveloping the station and building the HS2 platforms.

 

https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/significant-structural-work-on-euston-station-complete-as-construction-of-the-hs2-london-terminus-begins

 

 

https://vimeo.com/user29096206/review/429604407/6fe709b5c6

 

 

 

 

.

 

[Mike Storey]

On 25/06/2020 at 21:41, melmerby said:

Maybe because we aren't in the EU?

350kph was around the design speed for HS2

 

Well, 360 kph, but it would appear that most trains will run at a maximum of 320 kph, unless late or out of sequence, in which case 360 kph would be authorised.

 

The 400 kph alignment (as reported by Zomboid) allows for the 10% additional safety margin built into all rail alignment designs.

 

As for the reason being not part of the EU any more, I could not possibly comment, much as I would like to........ but it is clear that this is as much a political gesture, as a practical one. The reason that it would obviate many EU-internal flights, is a good ambition, but then many of those flights come to the UK. Quite how someone would be persuaded to go by rail and sea to Ireland or Malta, rather than fly, even given the faster land-side element, suggests a political aspiration more than anything else.

 

I posted the article because it does herald a continuation of expansion of high speed networks in the EU, largely supported by the general electorate, although with local exceptions. It contrasts starkly with the indecisive attitude in the UK (or at least, in Engerland).

[melmerby]

47 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

 

 

I posted the article because it does herald a continuation of expansion of high speed networks in the EU, largely supported by the general electorate, although with local exceptions. It contrasts starkly with the indecisive attitude in the UK (or at least, in Engerland).

The case for high speed rail  in the UK is not helped by media which generally likes to be anti anything constructive, with disproportionate coverage of "anti" views.

This is not just confined to HS2 but almost anything.

We probably also have a more car-centric population than many other countries as well.

I'm surprised we ever get anything done at all apart from road building.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The case for high speed rail  in the UK is not helped by media which generally likes to be anti anything constructive, with disproportionate coverage of "anti" views.

This is not just confined to HS2 but almost anything.

We probably also have a more car-centric population than many other countries as well.

I'm surprised we ever get anything done at all apart from road building.

 

I agree except for the highlighted word. There is a reluctance to do anything to meet the continual increase in demand for travel apart from pathetic 'stupid motorway' schemes ("Smart Motorways" being a total misnomer & just a cost-cutting excuse for an upgrade).

 

The first UK Motorway was opened in 1958 & there was a continuous building programme until the M6 (Toll) opened in 2003. Since then, traffic has steadily increased but only a handful of more minor Motorway projects have been completed even though traffic has continued to increase. The A74(M) extension to meet the M6 looks about the most significant & that was 5 miles long.

Some dual carriageways have been opened but to a lesser standard than Motorways.

[melmerby]

17 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

There is a reluctance to do anything to meet the continual increase in demand for travel apart from pathetic 'stupid motorway' schemes ("Smart Motorways" being a total misnomer & just a cost-cutting excuse for an upgrade).

 

They might come to a grinding halt if as accident figures seem to be showing, as predicted, that they are actually somewhat more dangerous than the un-upgraded to Smart Motorway status road was.

I've been against them from day one as it was obvious the logic for creating them was going against the established criteria for safe motorways.

We had been told from the dawn of the motorway age that one of the main contributions to safety on a motorway was the hard shoulder and here it was swept away with a stroke of a pen in the name of "progress"

[Pete the Elaner]

25 minutes ago, melmerby said:

They might come to a grinding halt if as accident figures seem to be showing, as predicted, that they are actually somewhat more dangerous than the un-upgraded to Smart Motorway status road was.

I've been against them from day one as it was obvious the logic for creating them was going against the established criteria for safe motorways.

We had been told from the dawn of the motorway age that one of the main contributions to safety on a motorway was the hard shoulder and here it was swept away with a stroke of a pen in the name of "progress"

I completely agree. Hard Shoulders are surely something which should make Motorways safer?

I live close to the M1: Watford-Luton was upgraded properly, yet on a 5 land section, it is still common to see lanes 1,2 & 3 all empty, a line of cars in lane 4 & a few in lane 5 passing them.

From Luton to MK is a ""Smart" Motorway" section but it changes from 3 to 4  to 3 +HS to 3 to 3 +HS, with each lane gain/lane drop on the left. The result is most drivers are so confused they simply ignore the HS when it is open, so completely removing the value of it.. but the few who understand it mean that the HS has still lost its purpose. This makes it a complete waste of time & money.

On another note, the M1 was floodlit from the M25 to Northampton because this was regarded as an area susceptible to fog. The floodlights were removed a few years ago, which seems to be a bit of a devaluation to me. Surely the M1 is one of the country's most important roads hence its number being 1?

 

Anyway, weren't we talking about HS2? The name gives a bad impression. The whoe point of it was to relieve the overcrowded WCML. As someone who has travellled on it regularly for the last 18 years, I have seen commuter trains increase from moderately packed 8 coach trains through manageable 12 coach services to rammed 12 coach ones. The services get in each others way at busy times, so maybe a NR1 (Northern Relief 1) may be a better name?

I guess I'm preaching to the converted on here though?

 

& the comments of 'Well Beeching shouldn't have closed them all' are ill thought out. He got well paid for writing a report for somebody else & this prompted closure of lesser used branch lines, not main routes which need re-opening today. The one exception was the GC.

[caradoc]

13 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Quite how someone would be persuaded to go by rail and sea to Ireland or Malta, rather than fly, even given the faster land-side element, suggests a political aspiration more than anything else.

 

Just before lockdown, I travelled from Glasgow to Belfast for a short break. I have the great benefit, as retired railway staff, of free travel on both mainland and Northern Ireland railways, and discounts on the ferry. However I flew, because, rather than taking most of the day, I left home after lunch and got to my hotel in Belfast in time for an early dinner ! The actual flight took all of 20 minutes. So, even with high speed rail, for such routes the journey time compared with flying is utterly uncompetitive, and always will be.

 

[black and decker boy]

13 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I agree except for the highlighted word. There is a reluctance to do anything to meet the continual increase in demand for travel apart from pathetic 'stupid motorway' schemes ("Smart Motorways" being a total misnomer & just a cost-cutting excuse for an upgrade).

 

The first UK Motorway was opened in 1958 & there was a continuous building programme until the M6 (Toll) opened in 2003. Since then, traffic has steadily increased but only a handful of more minor Motorway projects have been completed even though traffic has continued to increase. The A74(M) extension to meet the M6 looks about the most significant & that was 5 miles long.

Some dual carriageways have been opened but to a lesser standard than Motorways.

Highways England have never stopped upgrading the Strategic Road Network (or which motorways are one part).

The A14 upgrade has opened this year.

work starts On the A303 and A47 upgrades within the next year.

the A66 upgrade is out for consultation 

the A1 has been dualled and grade separated along most of its length.

the A1 / M1 link was built in Leeds 

The A556 link was built between M56 & M6

a second Tyne tunnel was built and upgrades to the A19 are happening now

 

SMART motorways will continue, advance work to upgrade the M62 over the Pennines has started this month with the main work next year. Ditto M56 at Man Airport and M6 north of Wigan for which contracts are let and works happening in the background.

 

Luckily rail investment is also being funded and promoted by the regional bodies set up to set transport policy (eg Transport for the North) 

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Just before lockdown, I travelled from Glasgow to Belfast for a short break. I have the great benefit, as retired railway staff, of free travel on both mainland and Northern Ireland railways, and discounts on the ferry. However I flew, because, rather than taking most of the day, I left home after lunch and got to my hotel in Belfast in time for an early dinner ! The actual flight took all of 20 minutes. So, even with high speed rail, for such routes the journey time compared with flying is utterly uncompetitive, and always will be.

 

I remember writing much the same not so long ago, about a proposal to re-open the "Port Road" to Stranraer, on this forum.

 

When I was young, the through trains from London to Fishguard were a HST, which replaced well-filled 10-coach trains.  There are no through services now and the ferry is served by a 2-car Sprinter from Cardiff.  When I was on it about five years ago, I counted less than 20 off and 33 on at Fishguard.

 

Very, very few people will travel from the UK mainland to Ireland by rail and ferry, when they have the option of flying.  Low cost airlines have killed off the business for ever; even if the cost of flying doubles, the time penalty for the surface mode will always be punitive and high-speed rail will not change that.  The railways need to concentrate on satisfying the travel requirements of the 21st century, not trying to re-create the infrastructure of the 19th century.  Hence, HS2, HS3 etc.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I remember writing much the same not so long ago, about a proposal to re-open the "Port Road" to Stranraer, on this forum.

 

When I was young, the through trains from London to Fishguard were a HST, which replaced well-filled 10-coach trains.  There are no through services now and the ferry is served by a 2-car Sprinter from Cardiff.  When I was on it about five years ago, I counted less than 20 off and 33 on at Fishguard.

 

Very, very few people will travel from the UK mainland to Ireland by rail and ferry, when they have the option of flying.  Low cost airlines have killed off the business for ever; even if the cost of flying doubles, the time penalty for the surface mode will always be punitive and high-speed rail will not change that.  The railways need to concentrate on satisfying the travel requirements of the 21st century, not trying to re-create the infrastructure of the 19th century.  Hence, HS2, HS3 etc.

Ryan Air started off, IIRC, by running services from Newcastle to Ireland, specifically targeted at expatriate workers. 

[lmsforever]

Road improvements will always take precedent over rail but perhaps in these steightened times we might see a slight reversal towards rail.Cities have been better places thanks to less traffic and road commuters maybe are seeing that the car should stay in the garage more.Buses trains can offer an alternative but will need good marketing but some roads will have to be upgraded.What is required is a mindset change by the population in that personal transport is not a devine right but using alternatives will serve them better ,I am not holding my breath as recent events are showing that people cannot cope with prolems anymore.

[corneliuslundie]

Unfortunately Boris's suggestions for capital expenditure to end the coming recession included roads but not rail.

Jonathan

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Unfortunately Boris's suggestions for capital expenditure to end the coming recession included roads but not rail.

Jonathan

 

That's because they have already committed to around £8 billion of rail improvements/enhancements over this Control Period, alongside the commitment to keep HS2 going, around £20 billion in the next five years. The industry could not cope with any more, and these are all shovel-ready schemes (in the political use of that phrase). Additional "promises" could not possibly arrive within this parliament. I would be quite surprised if a majority of the road schemes could either, mind you.

[Bernard Lamb]

44 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

I would be quite surprised if a majority of the road schemes could either, mind you.

We had a laugh about that this morning.

Next year we cut back on immigration and even before then we have a shortage of skilled labour. At least the HS2 plans include the provision of training schemes.

Bernard