HS2

[black and decker boy]

I am involved with around £130m of new road schemes, some of which will be shovel ready this year but await either funding or planning permission. Many Councils are in a similar position. Final funding is usually secured close to construction with the early design & negotiations taking place with LEP money or from Council coffers.

 

I suspect the government aren't really announcing new funding, just a rescheduling of funding already promised for 2021-2025 to prioritise those schemes that are ready and can mobilise quickly to provide jobs and +ve PR

[John Tomlinson]

Apparently the Court of Appeal have just given "Stop HS2" the right to be heard by that Court in respect of their Application for a Judicial Review of the Government's decision to proceed with the project.

 

I'd thought this was no longer active - clearly not.

 

John.

[Grovenor]

You can't expect Lawyers to give up a lucrative revenue stream.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 28/06/2020 at 11:59, black and decker boy said:

The A14 upgrade has opened this year.

work starts On the A303 and A47 upgrades within the next year.

the A66 upgrade is out for consultation 

the A1 has been dualled and grade separated along most of its length.

the A1 / M1 link was built in Leeds 

The A556 link was built between M56 & M6

a second Tyne tunnel was built and upgrades to the A19 are happening now

 

SMART motorways will continue, advance work to upgrade the M62 over the Pennines has started this month with the main work next year. Ditto M56 at Man Airport and M6 north of Wigan for which contracts are let and works happening in the background.

 

They are all A roads, to a lesser standard than Motorways (otherwise they would be Motorways).

Which is exactly what I said.

 

Smart Motorways may well continue but they do not do a very good job, largely because drivers fail to use them properly. The J10-J14 upgrade of the M1 has barely helped at all, which contrasts to the proper 4-lane widening from J6A to J10.

[RJS1977]

59 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Are the earthworks part of HS2? I'd undrestood it would be passing a lot closer to Quainton Road than that.

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

They are all A roads, to a lesser standard than Motorways (otherwise they would be Motorways).

Which is exactly what I said.

 

Smart Motorways may well continue but they do not do a very good job, largely because drivers fail to use them properly. The J10-J14 upgrade of the M1 has barely helped at all, which contrasts to the proper 4-lane widening from J6A to J10.

The vast majority of journeys will be eased by improvements to roads of much less then motorway standard.  The fact that we aren't trying to build our way out of road congestion with lots of new motorways, might show that we've actually learned something as a country.

[black and decker boy]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

They are all A roads, to a lesser standard than Motorways (otherwise they would be Motorways).

Which is exactly what I said.

 

Smart Motorways may well continue but they do not do a very good job, largely because drivers fail to use them properly. The J10-J14 upgrade of the M1 has barely helped at all, which contrasts to the proper 4-lane widening from J6A to J10.

No, most are to the same standard as motorways, dual carriageway with multiple lanes in each direction, similar technology and speed limits and prohibition of pedestrians & cyclists. Both made out of black tarmac with white lines too. 

 

There is unlikely to be any major motorway building in the U.K. again but plenty of large scale A road upgrades In the next 5 year RIS2 plan by HE. Lots of new smart motorway upgrades too and lots of Junction & sliproad improvements.

[Davexoc]

52 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

There is unlikely to be any major motorway building in the U.K. again but plenty of large scale A road upgrades In the next 5 year RIS2 plan by HE. Lots of new smart motorway upgrades too and lots of Junction & sliproad improvements.

 

What, you mean they can have a third go at M40 junction 10 (A43/Cherwell Services) ?

Reinstate the old layout to remove the conflicting moves as it was originally would work better than any of the recent variations.

And as for smart motorways, same as smart meters, a waste of our money.......

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Are the earthworks part of HS2? I'd undrestood it would be passing a lot closer to Quainton Road than that.

 

On some of these aerial shots, it's difficult to make out which are plant and project base site works, preparations for building haul and access roads and other construction logistics sites, rather than the actual railway works themselves.

 

 

 

.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Calidore]

The Times are reporting this morning that a plan is under consideration to effectively scrap the eastern fork of phase 2b, and replace it with a link from the western fork towards Leeds which will be seen as both HS2 and the 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' rolled into one.

 

I'm not too clued up on the detail of HS2, but has this been reported anywhere else?

 

Link (probably subscription) -- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hs2-money-saving-plan-to-run-trains-across-pennines-7nw9s7q9n

 

Adam

[Mike Storey]

13 minutes ago, Calidore said:

The Times are reporting this morning that a plan is under consideration to effectively scrap the eastern fork of phase 2b, and replace it with a link from the western fork towards Leeds which will be seen as both HS2 and the 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' rolled into one.

 

I'm not too clued up on the detail of HS2, but has this been reported anywhere else?

 

Link (probably subscription) -- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hs2-money-saving-plan-to-run-trains-across-pennines-7nw9s7q9n

 

Adam

 

That makes sense financially, but only financially. It does nothing for Sheffield, not to say a few others on the original route. It will also take considerable time to work up to the level of development that the existing Phase 2b has been. Not sure this will pass muster.

[jamie92208]

I wonder how much of this is spin, who was spinning and what was their motivation. Yesterday the spin about Leicester was a relatively  mild continuation of thevlockdown but something much stricter emerged.  The Eastern leg does have connevtions to 3 major cities, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield as well as Leeds and will take a lot of pressure off the MML.

 

Jamie

 

[DY444]

14 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

That makes sense financially, but only financially. It does nothing for Sheffield, not to say a few others on the original route. It will also take considerable time to work up to the level of development that the existing Phase 2b has been. Not sure this will pass muster.

 

I wonder if a quid pro quo of the early resumption of MML electrification might be coming?

[DY444]

23 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Apparently the Court of Appeal have just given "Stop HS2" the right to be heard by that Court in respect of their Application for a Judicial Review of the Government's decision to proceed with the project.

 

I'd thought this was no longer active - clearly not.

 

John.

 

That's the Chris Packham case.  Basically moaning about loss of ancient woodland breaching environmental legislation whilst not batting an eye lid about far more of it being lost by road schemes. 

 

Even if he wins I think the Government can get round it by introducing changes to the environmental legislation upon which the challenge is based giving it a retrospective opt out for projects it deems in the national interest.  Whilst in the worst case it may be nuisance and hold things up I don't see it stopping the project.

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Calidore said:

The Times are reporting this morning that a plan is under consideration to effectively scrap the eastern fork of phase 2b, and replace it with a link from the western fork towards Leeds which will be seen as both HS2 and the 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' rolled into one.

 

I'm not too clued up on the detail of HS2, but has this been reported anywhere else?

 

Link (probably subscription) -- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hs2-money-saving-plan-to-run-trains-across-pennines-7nw9s7q9n

 

Adam

There are benefits to providing trains through Manchester linking HS2 and NPR if both are built, for example direct trains between Birmingham and Bradford.  But I don't see how it can work as a replacement for the HS2 eastern leg.  Current plans have 400m train pairs running every 20min from London to both Manchester and Leeds.  If these were combined into London-Manchester-Leeds trains and became the main route between London and Leeds, then they would be overloaded with both London-Manchester and London-Leeds passengers.  But there isn't enough capacity on HS2 between the Birmingham area and Manchester to add three more trains every hour to serve Leeds.  

[jamie92208]

I suspect that by the time it gets to court the work will gave already been done. I seem to remember the original hearing was done quickly so that the work could be done before the birds started nesting.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

 

That makes sense financially, but only financially. It does nothing for Sheffield, not to say a few others on the original route. It will also take considerable time to work up to the level of development that the existing Phase 2b has been. Not sure this will pass muster.

 

Sheffield (plus Derby & Nottingham) could still gain benefits if phase 2b was curtailed at Totton though. In such a situation its only really Leeds and the North East which lose out, but....

 

...given the deviation via Birmingham on HS2, the journey time on the existing ECML will to all intents be the same so axing phase 2b north of Totton could look attractive. Cross country services to Birmingham are rather different - but as they do not start or finish in London Whitehall mandarins may not care about the losses which occur to that service group from cuts.

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

42 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

That's the Chris Packham case.  Basically moaning about loss of ancient woodland breaching environmental legislation whilst not batting an eye lid about far more of it being lost by road schemes. 

 

Even if he wins I think the Government can get round it by introducing changes to the environmental legislation upon which the challenge is based giving it a retrospective opt out for projects it deems in the national interest.  Whilst in the worst case it may be nuisance and hold things up I don't see it stopping the project.

The reason for me mentioning it is that it is news, and also I and I suspect everyone else thought the matter had now been closed. FWIW I don't see it stopping the project either.

 

The Government could, as you say, get round this and future challenges by changing the law. With a large majority in Parliament, one can only assume this is quite a realistic option.

 

The issue of Road schemes has come up before, and I mentioned back then that as far as my local Wildlife Trust is concerned, and some others I know about as well, they have been quite vociferous in opposition to many of these, as has Chris Packham. However as we all know the road lobby, especially the haulage industry, has considerable political clout, which sadly seems to be being wielded as I write this. However it's wrong to say that the environmentalists have simply latched onto HS2 as a cause and are happy to see roads everywhere - they aren't.

 

John.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Calidore said:

The Times are reporting this morning that a plan is under consideration to effectively scrap the eastern fork of phase 2b, and replace it with a link from the western fork towards Leeds which will be seen as both HS2 and the 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' rolled into one.

 

I'm not too clued up on the detail of HS2, but has this been reported anywhere else?

 

Link (probably subscription) -- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hs2-money-saving-plan-to-run-trains-across-pennines-7nw9s7q9n

 

Adam

This was published in part yesterday in the MEN (I think) as it was driven by the tunnel under Man Picc instead of a surface station which then linked back to the east and could be used by Yorks to MIA trains. Its a submission by an defendant set of architects & engineers and not a formal HS2 proposal. that isn't to say that TfN wont get behind the idea.

 

As HS2 phase 2a & 2b haven't got parliamentary approval yet, there is plenty of time for changes to be made especially if it delivers a cheaper & more integrated NPR

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Sheffield (plus Derby & Nottingham) could still gain benefits if phase 2b was curtailed at Totton though. In such a situation its only really Leeds and the North East which lose out, but....

 

...given the deviation via Birmingham on HS2, the journey time on the existing ECML will to all intents be the same so axing phase 2b north of Totton could look attractive. Cross country services to Birmingham are rather different - but as they do not start or finish in London Whitehall mandarins may not care about the losses which occur to that service group from cuts.

 

 

Note: it's Toton (one "t") between Derby and Nottingham. Totton (two "t"s) is just outside Southampton.

 

It's that favourite British game of Confuse the Tourists. "Now pronounce, "Loughborough" and "Llanelli"".......

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Note: it's Toton (one "t") between Derby and Nottingham. Totton (two "t"s) is just outside Southampton.

 

It's that favourite British game of Confuse the Tourists. "Now pronounce, "Loughborough" and "Llanelli"".......

 

Reminds me of the story of the overseas businessman who travelled to the UK to visit a firm in Northampton. The firm sent someone to Northampton station to pick him up, but his booked train came and went and there was no sign of him. The person detailed to pick him up called him to find out where he was.

"I'm in the station on the other side of town."

"There isn't a station on the other side of town. There's only one station in Northampton. Where are you?"

"I'm in Southampton...."

[corneliuslundie]

Just try telling Americans about Middlesex!

[DK123GWR]

20 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Just try telling Americans about Middlesex!

You should also inform them that the county council's former meeting place now serves as the highest court of appeal for 13 nations and several other territories across 6 continents.

 

Because I feel obliged to keep the thread on track, here's some relevant news:

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/hs2/hs2-announces-500-new-jobs-30-06-2020/

Edited June 30, 2020 by DK123GWR