HS2

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I very much doubt that the Euston terminus will be allowed to die. The high cost land has been purchased and mostly cleared. The TBM launch pit is well under way and I suspect that the TBM's themselves are already nearly built and ready for delivery. I think that I've read somewhere that the tunnel lining segment factory has been built as well.  With the central London land acquisition  complete and much of the disruption now done a lot of the vocal opposition will die down.  Once the diggers get going in the Chilterns I suspect that a lot of the opposition will die down.

 

Jamie

 

I take your point about the TBMs. The land would not be such an issue. It could be sold for other development although I expect that there would be some legal repercussions after compulsory purchase.

 

But I have to agree, probably too late to shift from Euston as any alternative would require a lot of design time, "consultations", etc. Euston is a big part of the cost of HS2 and totally unnecessary. I can't see that many people using it when better connections to most of London will be available at Old Oak Common.

[Zomboid]

Improving the tube interchange at Euston is part of the project, I believe. And having it run there gives better connectivity to central London then OOC + crossrail would. The convenience of directly accessing the local services from Euston or a short walk to St Pancras & Kings Cross is something that OOC couldn't offer.

 

I'd be astonished if OOC was even the same order of magnitude as Euston when it comes to passenger numbers.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Zomboid

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Improving the tube interchange at Euston is part of the project, I believe. And having it run there gives better connectivity to central London then OOC + crossrail would. The convenience of directly accessing the local services from Euston or a short walk to St Pancras & Kings Cross is something that OOC couldn't offer.

 

I'd be astonished if OOC was even the same order of magnitude as Euston when it comes to passenger numbers.

 

Where, in Central London, is more easily (and quickly) accessed via Euston than from OOC? I can only think of Victoria and KXSP that would primarily be for onward travel to destinations mostly served also from Farringdon and Stratford "International".

But, outside Central London, prime destinations are Canary Wharf and Heathrow, both better from OOC.

[Pete the Elaner]

57 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I can't see that many people using it when better connections to most of London will be available at Old Oak Common.

I can't agree with that part at all.

 

Euston is one of the better connected London terminals, served by Victoria & both branches of the Northern Line. It is also a short walk from the Circle Line (should be shorter if TfL would ever get around to placing the entrance to Euston Square at the end where it should have been in the first place, but Euston Square is still a recognised interchange). This makes it 1 train away from Paddington, Liverpool St, Waterloo, Victoria & London Bridge. Even with service suspended on 1 line, there are still alternative routes.

St Pancras/King's Cross is 10 minutes walk away or 1 stop on Victoria or Northern Lines, Tottenham Court Road station is 15 minutes walk away, or 3 stops on the other Northern Line 

OOC is out near Willesden Junction, but that is 15 minutes walk away, so not a connection & there are no Underground links to it. Connections are to Crossrail & nothing else, so if this has a suspension in service, passengers will be stranded.

[Zomboid]

Anywhere on Thameslink is better accessed via Euston, as will be anywhere on the lines out of Waterloo. Ok they're not Central London so much, but basically anything south of the river is much easier via Euston.

[Edwin_m]

The HS2 station at Euston includes a link to Euston Square.  As the current entrance is at the far end, this will go to the near end and provide a much shorter access route as well as full step-free access and emergency exit.  

 

I suspect the outcome of all this will be to push ahead with Phase 1 as planned, bolting 2a on as part of the same project, but also accelerate the delivery of 2b.  In the latter, priority could be given to the sections that also serve as links between the cities of the North, essentially Manchester to the Airport and somewhere north of Sheffield to Leeds.  These could be built totally independent of Phase 1/2a and joined up later.  

[lmsforever]

I can assure you all that HS2 Ltd  and their activities will be closely scutinised as they progress construction through the Chilterns ,  as their past record is extremely poor in many matters.Payment for land etc will be expected as this is one area that has caused many problems plus the highhanded activities of contractors.We accept its being built but now want it done correctly with sympathy to surroundings and wildlife.

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

The HS2 station at Euston includes a link to Euston Square.  As the current entrance is at the far end, this will go to the near end and provide a much shorter access route as well as full step-free access and emergency exit.  

 

I suspect the outcome of all this will be to push ahead with Phase 1 as planned, bolting 2a on as part of the same project, but also accelerate the delivery of 2b.  In the latter, priority could be given to the sections that also serve as links between the cities of the North, essentially Manchester to the Airport and somewhere north of Sheffield to Leeds.  These could be built totally independent of Phase 1/2a and joined up later.  

I believe that in an analysis of the reasons behind the fost inflation that someone (IIRC Mike Storey) posted earlier, the junctions between phase 2b and NPR are already included in the costings.  Certainly the design work for 2b has brought significant changes in the Leeds area, with a tunnel under Woodlesford and the depot to be built on the former filter beds at Knostrop sewerage works rather than at Crofton.

 

Jamie

[pete_mcfarlane]

8 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Agreed about the manpower.

Building it in 1 go will place a huge demand on manpower...then a lot of unemployment once the project is completed. Building it in smaller stages allows the skilled workforce to have more of a future. Although I doubt governments will care directly about this, they don't want to be seen as creating unemployment, so moving the workforce to a later phase is preferable.

In much the same way that construction on HS2 is starting as Crossrail winds down, and there are schemes further down the pipleine for after HS2, such as HS3, Crossrail 2 and the proposed Manchester - Sheffield motorway tunnel that will make use of the workforce. There does seem to be a realisation now in (some parts of ) Government that you need to keep a skilled workforce together by providing continual work or you end up with the problems encountered in projects like the GWML electrification of the Astute submarine builds, where the experience needed to do the work has been lost. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

....Euston is one of the better connected London terminals, served by Victoria & both branches of the Northern Line. It is also a short walk from the Circle Line (should be shorter if TfL would ever get around to placing the entrance to Euston Square at the end where it should have been in the first place......) ........

 

As Edwin says, as part of the extension and rebuild, Euston Square is to be integrated into the underground station complex under Euston.

The HS2 extension, brings Euston station to just across the road from Euston Sq. and new access from the eastern end of the tube platforms will feed into a new /expanded Euston underground ticket hall.

 

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

......This makes it 1 train away from Paddington, Liverpool St, Waterloo, Victoria & London Bridge. Even with service suspended on 1 line, there are still alternative routes......

 

There is no need to connect between HS2 and Paddington at Euston.

That connection will be facilitated at OOC, directly from HS2 to the GWML.

Paddington mainline station is also just one quick stop away from OOC via Crossrail or the GWML.

 

OOC to Liverpool Street is a direct connection expected to take 13 or 14 minutes.

 

Other connections will be quicker and more convenient, either via Euston or OOC.

The idea is to spread the load between Euston and OOC, otherwise the underground at Euston will not cope and services could collapse under the extra weight.

Bear in mind that OOC and the Crossrail stations are newer and should be better designed for mobility and ease of lugging luggage around.

Navigating a rabbit's warren of underground passages at Euston might not be the easiest or most comfortable option.

 

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

....St Pancras/King's Cross is 10 minutes walk away or 1 stop on Victoria or Northern Lines, Tottenham Court Road station is 15 minutes walk away, or 3 stops on the other Northern Line .....

 

It hasn't been decided yet if there will be ...and if so, what sort of fixed link is to be provided between Euston and St. Pancras/KGX.

A dedicated, covered walking route via the back streets is one proposal. Travelators and even people movers have been floated as possible options, but nothing has been firmed up yet.

 

Tottenham Court Rd. is only about 8 or 9 minutes from OOC on Crossrail.

Nobody in their right mind would choose to connect at Euston if heading for that destination.

 

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Anywhere on Thameslink is better accessed via Euston,......

 

Note that Farringdon has supposedly been designed as a major interchange between Crossrail and Thameslink.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[scottystitch]

Would there be any mileage in arranging OOC to have two or even one of the 6 platforms for terminating trains, although not necessarily a bay?

 

Would this relieve Euston slightly by having so many trains per hour starting from and terminating at OOC. Perhaps as a proper feed into GWML and Crossrail?

 

Or would any benefit be negligible?

 

Best

 

Scott

[Ron Ron Ron]

If anyone's interested, here's the plans of the OOC HS2 platform layout.

Taken from the planning application.

 

Note, turn back facilities are provided on the central platforms 3 & 4, but not on platforms 1, 2, 5 or 6

If OOC is to be the temporary terminus until Euston is ready, then a redesign will be needed, probably requiring a very expensive and large extension of the station complex's underground footprint. i.e. it's going to cost loads more.

 

OOC HS2 platforms - west

 

OOC HS2 platforms - mid

 

OOC HS2 platforms - east

 

 

All the OOC planning application documents  are here (a 7 page index to access all of them) .......

 

 

.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Would there be any mileage in arranging OOC to have two or even one of the 6 platforms for terminating trains, although not necessarily a bay?

 

Would this relieve Euston slightly by having so many trains per hour starting from and terminating at OOC. Perhaps as a proper feed into GWML and Crossrail?

 

Or would any benefit be negligible?

 

 

OOC will have turn back facilities (crossovers at each end of the station box) on 2 out of the 6 platforms, but these are primarily designed for contingency purposes (during tunnel/ line maintenance, Euston unavailable for whatever reason etc.).

 

If by "proper feed onto GWML and Crossrail", you mean connecting lines, then no, there would be no sense in it.

HS2 is a UIC gauge railway and the captive fleet will not be able to use "classic lines".

Crossrail will be a very busy metro line in the central core, with 24 tph in the peak, using automatic train control. Absolutely no room for any other services, capacity or technology wise.

HS2 trains, both classic compatible and captive designs, will not be able to use any of the Crossrail central core platforms anyway (the platform edge doors will not align with HS2 stock).

 

.

[scottystitch]

6 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

OOC will have turn back facilities (crossovers at each end of the station box) on 2 out of the 6 platforms, but these are primarily designed for contingency purposes (during tunnel/ line maintenance, Euston unavailable for whatever reason etc.).

 

If by "proper feed onto GWML and Crossrail", you mean connecting lines, then no, there would be no sense in it.

 

 

.

No I just meant  to serve the the connections that OOC gives, such as GWML and Crossrail, and at the same time relieving pressure for platform space at Euston.  I knew crossrail and HS2 were incompatible. 

 

I'm only asking the question because I don't know if it's a good idea or helps Euston or not.

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited February 13, 2020 by scottystitch

[Ron Ron Ron]

20 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

No I just meant  to serve the the connections that OOC gives, such as GWML and Crossrail, and at the same time relieving pressure for platform space at Euston.  I knew crossrail and HS2 were incompatible. 

 

I'm only asking the question because I don't know if it's a good idea or helps Euston or not.

 

 

OK I've got it now.

 

That's the whole point of OOC in the first place Scott.

To take pressure off Euston and to provide a wider and in some cases better range of connections across London and the SE, including a fast link to Heathrow.

Both stations need to be served to achieve this.

Hence the 8 GWML platforms, in addition to the 6 HS2 platforms at OOC.

Arguably, a failing in the plan was not to take the very expensive (and difficult) option of re-routing some of the nearby WLL, NLL and LU lines, to run through the complex.

Nearby WLL and NLL stations on the existing alignments are being considered, but they are some distance from the OOC station itself, although the on/off proposal for a NLL station on Old Oak Common Lane, locates it only 300 metres away.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[scottystitch]

Okay thanks.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I believe that in an analysis of the reasons behind the fost inflation that someone (IIRC Mike Storey) posted earlier, the junctions between phase 2b and NPR are already included in the costings.  Certainly the design work for 2b has brought significant changes in the Leeds area, with a tunnel under Woodlesford and the depot to be built on the former filter beds at Knostrop sewerage works rather than at Crofton.

 

Jamie

I think what is included is provision for the junctions, which may be no more than a bit of straight track where someone has done an outline design showing the junction can be added later.  

[runs as required]

Can I please ask for help.

While driving I heard a fragment of an interesting interview on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme last week (3-7 Feb) with an Engineering Professor - from Cambridge or U of London - about his Research group's study which had established there to be an inevitable 'human and administrative' lead-time associated with major UK projects compared to other nations (eg Thailand and Bangkok's new multi modal station referred to above).

 

Can anyone readily recall this - or perhaps offer a name? I should very much like to pass it on to a friend, without ploughing through hours of 'listen again'

dh

 

[Pete the Elaner]

Since Bangkok has again been mentioned as an example of how projects "move better abroad than in the UK", you may find the Hopewell Project interesting.

Approved in 1990, suspended in 1992 with only 10-13% complete, then cancelled in 1997.

 

Then in 2013, it was resurrected as the Dark Red Line which will hopefully open late this year. This is 7 years build for a railway which is not long distance or under the ground; it is being built above the existing railway on pillars, some of which were built previously for the abandoned Hopewell Project mentioned above.

 

So when we see articles about the nice new Bang Sue Junction station, we are selectively only being shown the best bits.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Another comparison with major projects in other countries.

Stuttgart 21

Designed to improve the existing rail network around Stuttgart and to introduce new rail lines, including HS lines.

 

It involves rebuilding and replacing the 17 platform Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof terminus, with a new through line station, built mostly underground, and building 35 miles of new railway lines, including 19 miles of tunnels and 16 miles of high speed lines.

In addition, another 72 miles of high speed lines, 4 new stations, with 55 new bridges and 21 new tunnels are being built around the Stuttgart region.

 

Announced 1994.

Planning commenced in 2006.

Work started in 2010 (after 16 years).

Estimated cost in 2010 was €4.5 billion for the core Stuttgart 21 project.

Due to be completed in 2019.

Estimated cost in 2013 had gone up to €6.5 billion (almost a 50% increase in 3 years).

Currently expected to be finished in 2025.

Total cost now above €11.5 billion......

 

.....cost has massively over run, it's late, has faced lots of problems including poor ground conditions and it has attracted a lot of political controversy and argument.

 

 

 

.

 

[APOLLO]

The old Hopewell project piers are still standing, crumbling etc and have not / will not be used for anything as far as I know. The new high level station at Don Muang is virtually complete. I took these photos in June this year (Wife's family lives nearby and are looking forward to it opening soon). The hopewell piers can be seen in the centre. On the far left is the Don Muang airport, 4 lane elevated expressway viaduct over a 6 / 8 lane main road to the north, old Hopewell piers, metre gauge train heading north out of Don Muang station (state railways) and the new MRT lines - 2 tracks on each viaduct with the new elevated Don Muang station behind, another 4 lane local road far right. Busy area indeed, and we in the UK are banning new petrol / diesel cars in 10 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Note the new lines split into two levels for the new station in the background.

 

Never mind, Bangkok will be under water in say 50 years time, so they tell us - Perhaps London also - so build all new railways in coastal areas high off the ground !!!

 

Brit15

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

But I have to agree, probably too late to shift from Euston as any alternative would require a lot of design time, "consultations", etc. Euston is a big part of the cost of HS2 and totally unnecessary. I can't see that many people using it when better connections to most of London will be available at Old Oak Common.

 

Assuming Crossrail opens, by the time HS2 opens Crossrail will likely be quite busy / standing room maybe during parts of a Crossrail journey.  So while someone arriving on HS2 at OOC will be able to get a seat on Crossrail, the seat won't be as comfortable (*) as the train they could take to Euston and the HS2 won't be crammed with people near the centre London portion like Crossrail likely will be.

 

So taking HS2 to Euston will likely lead to a better travel experience depending on ultimate destination.

 

*- yes, given seats on newer trains a dangerous assumption.

[Joseph_Pestell]

13 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Assuming Crossrail opens, by the time HS2 opens Crossrail will likely be quite busy / standing room maybe during parts of a Crossrail journey.  So while someone arriving on HS2 at OOC will be able to get a seat on Crossrail, the seat won't be as comfortable (*) as the train they could take to Euston and the HS2 won't be crammed with people near the centre London portion like Crossrail likely will be.

 

So taking HS2 to Euston will likely lead to a better travel experience depending on ultimate destination.

 

*- yes, given seats on newer trains a dangerous assumption.

 

Unless the final destination is KXSP or somewhere else within walking distance of Euston, I don't see how the Northern Line or Victoria Line are going to be any more comfortable than Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) especially if there are a significant number of Crossrail trains starting at OOC.

It still seems to me that the only reason for Euston was woolly thinking. We have gone to Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool from Euston for such a long time that it must be the right place to go from. It could have been if HS2 had been routed into London alongside the WCML or even alongside the M1. But coming into London via the GW/GC Joint, Euston is not the right answer. 

[lmsforever]

How can fourteen trains an hour be justified  ,just a thought?