HS2

[corneliuslundie]

The other issue with electric cars is the batteries. Big issues about the elements needed and the batteries' short lives. Not like lead-acid. Which is also one of the arguments against battery trains except in very limited circumstances.

Re trees, they only store the CO2 while they are alive of course. Once they die and decay it goes back into the atmosphere or into other plants/fungi etc. So the only way to use trees long term to "capture" CO2 is continually to plant more than are dying or being cut down. Unfortunately, the last year seems to have seen more trees than usual dying around here. I think the weather has not been kind to them, and flooding etc do not help. Mind you some organisations, especially local councils, still seem to regard trees as a menace to be got rid of in case they drop a branch on someone. And long term we are going to see a big drop in the number of hedgerow trees because modern hedge cutting methods do not allow trees to develop. I feel that a lot of tree planting will be needed just to compensate for that, and it is an issue I have never seen mentioned.

Anyway, off my soapbox. It is nice to see real progress with the tunnelling etc. Many thanks for the images and videos over the past few months.

Jonathan

[lmsforever]

Go onto the Meridan news website and you can find this piece hope this helps.

[black and decker boy]

TBM Info here too 

 

https://hs2inbucksandoxfordshire.commonplace.is/news/2020/12/08/hs2’s-first-giant-tunnelling-machines-arrive-in-the-uk?utm_campaign=NewsPost&utm_content=HS2’s+first+giant+tunnelling+machines+arrive+in+the+UK&lang=en-GB

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Electric vehicles will still produce tyre particulates, which appear to be a significant fraction of total pollution.  In fact, being heavier than the equivalent IC vehicles, they may produce more.  

Not unique to EV’s, Tyre particulates is a recognised problem ...that’s being addressed.
The scale of the issue has been overblown by some studies, notably those that come from the green environmental angle, but there’s still an issue to be dealt with.

New tyre formulations are being developed, which are claimed to significantly reduce the problem, so this particular red herring will hopefully be smoked by the end of this decade.

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The other issue with electric cars is the batteries. Big issues about the elements needed and the batteries' short lives....

This isn’t something that’s being ignored. It’s at the core of new battery research and development.

Battery tech is developing at a rapid pace. Already the current batteries on many of the new EV’s are expected to outlive the cars they are being installed in.

Tesla have got a lead in this area, where they are gathering a lot of data on their cars that have been on the road for up to a decade.

The suggestion is that the useful life of the battery packs in vehicles should be at least 200,000 miles and some huge number of charging cycles. Some Tesla S vehicles have passed 250,000 miles and their batteries are still going strong.

However, the plan is that batteries that are no longer viable in the vehicle, would then be repurposed for use in power banks, or be recycled to recover the component materials.

Dependancy on Cobalt should reduce as there’s an industry wide push to reduce the Cobalt content to tiny amounts and then zero.

Battery research is also looking at various different materials, with the aim of sustainability and reducing the environmental impact.

Silicon battery tech. (Sand) ....glass batteries...all sorts.

In the meantime, Tesla’s “battery day” revealed that company’s plans for their next generation of batteries. Better energy density, improved efficiency, lighter weight, much lower Cobalt content, vastly improved production processes that reduce energy and environmental costs etc, etc.. Not trivial improvements and an indication that the state of the technology and the environmental downsides are not fixed items. 
 

Sorry, this is the HS2 thread.

Back to Swampy and his looney mates......

 

 

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[DY444]

All this talk of big strides in battery tech is fine and dandy although I remain sceptical particularly about real world working life and range degradation through ageing but we'll see.  To my mind the elephant in the room on the viability of electric road vehicles is power generation, distribution and charging infrastructure.  These are long lead time, big ticket items and the increasing reliance on wind power has one obvious drawback in that it requires suitable wind conditions. 

 

There have been a few days in recent weeks where the contribution of wind power has been very low indeed (November 3rd was one day iirc) and the deficiency was only met by using fossil fuelled plants.  Some reports suggest that rationing (aka power cuts) are distinctly possible going forward as the wind powered infrastructure struggles to meet current (ha ha) demand on some days.  It is far from clear how the load from millions of electric vehicles being charged is to be met in the kinds of timescales being discussed.  If power cuts do occur then power generation in general, and the limitations of weather dependent renewables in particular, will become a very big issue with lots of media and political scrutiny, and more importantly, there will be a public backlash. 

 

In short 2030 is an arbitrary date and I don't expect it, or the programme which goes with it, to survive first contact with the political, practical and economic realities of providing the infrastructure.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, DY444 said:

All this talk of big strides in battery tech is fine and dandy although I remain sceptical particularly about real world working life and range degradation through ageing but we'll see.  To my mind the elephant in the room on the viability of electric road vehicles is power generation, distribution and charging infrastructure.  These are long lead time, big ticket items and the increasing reliance on wind power has one obvious drawback in that it requires suitable wind conditions. 

 

There have been a few days in recent weeks where the contribution of wind power has been very low indeed (November 3rd was one day iirc) and the deficiency was only met by using fossil fuelled plants.  Some reports suggest that rationing (aka power cuts) are distinctly possible going forward as the wind powered infrastructure struggles to meet current (ha ha) demand on some days.  It is far from clear how the load from millions of electric vehicles being charged is to be met in the kinds of timescales being discussed.  If power cuts do occur then power generation in general, and the limitations of weather dependent renewables in particular, will become a very big issue with lots of media and political scrutiny, and more importantly, there will be a public backlash. 

 

In short 2030 is an arbitrary date and I don't expect it, or the programme which goes with it, to survive first contact with the political, practical and economic realities of providing the infrastructure.

 

This something of a circular argument. Wind, and other renewables, can provide for all our energy needs so long as we have adequate battery storage available to smooth out the supply. Getting enough of those batteries is currently hampered by a lack of production capacity. A UK battery storage scheme was delayed for several months when M-B snaffled the production slot.

[DY444]

29 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

This something of a circular argument. Wind, and other renewables, can provide for all our energy needs so long as we have adequate battery storage available to smooth out the supply. Getting enough of those batteries is currently hampered by a lack of production capacity. A UK battery storage scheme was delayed for several months when M-B snaffled the production slot.

 

It's not a circular argument at all.  The programme has an artificial date which I submit will not survive first contact with reality.  In the specific case of providing an "adequate" technological solution to the inherent variable contribution of wind power, well that is not going to happen overnight and the supply is exposed now.  And that's before what constitutes "adequate" is considered.  Providing an "adequate" solution to that issue at some point down stream won't help if public opinion rallies against it in the interim which is highly likely if that exposure causes power outages.  You've already alluded to delays and Governments aren't exactly renowned for completing projects in a timely fashion.

Edited December 9, 2020 by DY444

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, and also distribution capacity. This seems to me to be a weakness of our present set-up as there is no-one with an incentive to increase the distribution network as the payback is not there in the kind of time commercial companies think about. There is already talk about a shortage of distribution capacity in mid Wales in the near future. And of course no-one wants a power line in their back yard - or their horizon ten miles away. Look at the fuss about wind farms (though they are also noisy).

I am  glad I do not have to make these decisions.

So it's back to Brunton's horse powered locomotive then!

Jonathan

[Joseph_Pestell]

40 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

It's not a circular argument at all.  The programme has an artificial date which I submit will not survive first contact with reality.  In the specific case of providing an "adequate" technological solution to the inherent variable contribution of wind power, well that is not going to happen overnight and the supply is exposed now.  And that's before what constitutes "adequate" is considered.  Providing an "adequate" solution to that issue at some point down stream won't help if public opinion rallies against it in the interim which is highly likely if that exposure causes power outages.  You've already alluded to delays and Governments aren't exactly renowned for completing projects in a timely fashion.

 

The technological solution is there, and already working well. Just a question of investing in it. Like all technology, investors can be a bit wary that a better/cheaper solution is round the corner so they sit on their hands. My ex-wife is currently on her second battery storage scheme.

17 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Yes, and also distribution capacity. This seems to me to be a weakness of our present set-up as there is no-one with an incentive to increase the distribution network as the payback is not there in the kind of time commercial companies think about. There is already talk about a shortage of distribution capacity in mid Wales in the near future. And of course no-one wants a power line in their back yard - or their horizon ten miles away. Look at the fuss about wind farms (though they are also noisy).

I am  glad I do not have to make these decisions.

So it's back to Brunton's horse powered locomotive then!

Jonathan

Ideally, we would remove the distribution issue by generating more power locally. Why do we still have so many factory buildings with large roof areas and no solar panels or turbines?

[corneliuslundie]

A good question Joseph. Though not all factory sites will be suitable for turbines as they will be too hemmed in by other buildings. A classic example in Aberystwyth a few years ago. The council decided it wanted a wind turbine  on one of its buildings but whoever designed the scheme forgot just this factor and the turbine never generated much power.

And of course the areas of most dense use of power are also those on low land.

I am disappointed that during the period when I was working and seeing such things the government always rubbished wave power. They would never support research seriously. It is much less environmentally damaging than tidal power.

And there must be scope for small scale water turbines buried in rivers. There seems to be a problem of people understanding them as there often seem to be complaints that they will steal the water from the river. 

Jonathan

[Joseph_Pestell]

25 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

A good question Joseph. Though not all factory sites will be suitable for turbines as they will be too hemmed in by other buildings. A classic example in Aberystwyth a few years ago. The council decided it wanted a wind turbine  on one of its buildings but whoever designed the scheme forgot just this factor and the turbine never generated much power.

And of course the areas of most dense use of power are also those on low land.

I am disappointed that during the period when I was working and seeing such things the government always rubbished wave power. They would never support research seriously. It is much less environmentally damaging than tidal power.

And there must be scope for small scale water turbines buried in rivers. There seems to be a problem of people understanding them as there often seem to be complaints that they will steal the water from the river. 

Jonathan

 

My BiL did quite a lot of work with small water turbines in streams. They don't generate a lot of power but it is steady so, once again, if you have battery storage, they can be useful and very low cost.

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

This something of a circular argument. Wind, and other renewables, can provide for all our energy needs so long as we have adequate battery storage available to smooth out the supply. Getting enough of those batteries is currently hampered by a lack of production capacity. A UK battery storage scheme was delayed for several months when M-B snaffled the production slot.

 

Anyone who thinks we can afford to have enough battery storage to cover the sort of 10-14 day calm period we've had recently is living in cloud-cuckoo land. 

 

And with wind turbines having an expected life cycle of less than 25 years, we are soon going to have to think about starting to replace the current fleet. 

 

Welcome to 3rd-World electricity supply. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Anyone who thinks we can afford to have enough battery storage to cover the sort of 10-14 day calm period we've had recently is living in cloud-cuckoo land. 

 

And with wind turbines having an expected life cycle of less than 25 years, we are soon going to have to think about starting to replace the current fleet. 

 

Welcome to 3rd-World electricity supply. 

 

The batteries pay for themselves very comfortably due to the difference in energy prices at peak/off-peak times. That inevitably leads to an impact on final price of electricity to the consumer, but it is "affordable". Certainly more affordable than the costs of electricity cuts.

[black and decker boy]

well the uptake of EVs by 2030 is one thing but if you are convinced that the UK electrical production & distribution network is about to fall over then we are all doomed and HS2 and the rail networks particularly so.

 

I will point out that a high % of new build houses (certainly in the south) are being fitted with both solar panels and home charging points as well as much better insulation and lower energy fixtures & fittings.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

....I will point out that a high % of new build houses (certainly in the south) are being fitted with both solar panels and home charging points as well as much better insulation and lower energy fixtures & fittings.

 

The expected ban on new homes being fitted with gas boilers and having heat pumps instead, is another improvement.

Perhaps not directly an electricity matter though.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

....And with wind turbines having an expected life cycle of less than 25 years, we are soon going to have to think about starting to replace the current fleet. ....

 

Some early wind turbines have already been decommissioned and replaced.

It's a process already underway.

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[billbedford]

48 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The expected ban on new homes being fitted with gas boilers and having heat pumps instead, is another improvement.

 

 

Sorry, but how is expensive heat pumps driven by intermittent electricity an inprovement over cheap gas boilers?

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

The batteries pay for themselves very comfortably due to the difference in energy prices at peak/off-peak times. That inevitably leads to an impact on final price of electricity to the consumer, but it is "affordable". Certainly more affordable than the costs of electricity cuts.

 

Not even California has been able to make renewables plus batteries work without rolling blackouts when the wind drops. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Sorry, but how is expensive heat pumps driven by intermittent electricity an inprovement over cheap gas boilers?

 

Air source heat pumps are not that expensive and work well in all but the coldest UK weather.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Not even California has been able to make renewables plus batteries work without rolling blackouts when the wind drops. 

I don't know what the political situation in the US is with regard to this. They would certainly be "able" to do this in California but they may not be willing to make the financial investment. I understand that, despite it being the wealthiest state in the Union, California is a bit of a basket-case where public finances are concerned.

[lmsforever]

Went through Stoke Manderville this am  and noticed a great deal of prepartory work going on were the the embankment is going to cross main road to Wycombe.Barriers going up all round plus more work going on futher towards Wendover many work persons ,seems to be shifting up a gear.

[black and decker boy]

35 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Not even California has been able to make renewables plus batteries work without rolling blackouts when the wind drops. 

What struck me on visiting California has been the lack of obvious renewables. The US electricity infrastructure is well known to be piecemeal and poorly invested 

 

we saw little evidence of solar on our statewide trips.

 

wind is not the only renewable in use in the U.K. with many others less problematic plus new nuclear for baseload.