Excursion Open Thirds

[Aire Head]

My understanding is that the Open Third as modelled by Replica is what is termed as "Excursion Stock".

 

I'm aware that such terms tend to be misleading a lot of time and I was wondering.

 

How were these coaches used in normal day to day operations?

 

Were they marshalled into normal passenger trains, were they used as part of dining sets or were they used exclusively for other purposes?

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

How many seats are there?

I think that an open third for normal traffic would have 7 bays of 6 seats (42 in total).

Excursion stock would be 7 bays of 8 seats (56 in total).

 

 

[Aire Head]

25 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

How many seats are there?

I think that an open third for normal traffic would have 7 bays of 6 seats (42 in total).

Excursion stock would be 7 bays of 8 seats (56 in total).

 

 

 

I beleive it's a 56 seater.

[TheSignalEngineer]

57' coaches built for use as Dining Saloons had 2+1 seating, 7 bays of six seats per coach and were classed as RTO. There were some 60' coaches built as D1722 RFO which were declassified to thirds. Coaches for general use had 2+2 seating, 7 bays of 8 seats except for the D1915 as made by Replica which had 7 1/2 bays giving 60 seats.

Although used to give higher capacity than 3-a-side compartment stock  there were many to be found in mixed rakes on normal services especially longer distance commutes.

Edited January 27, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer
typo

[TheSignalEngineer]

This is an example of a Manchester - Blackpool set from 1951.

 

 

Seating split roughly half and half compartments for those who wanted to read the newspaper and opens for the bridge club or domino school.

[Aire Head]

8 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

This is an example of a Manchester - Blackpool set from 1951.

 

 

Seating split roughly half and half compartments for those who wanted to read the newspaper and opens for the bridge club or domino school.

 

I am assuming this is an excursion working?

 

If so were these coaches also used in regular traffic?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Yes, I goofed on this, not having gone to find my copy of Jenkinson. The 56-seat coach was the norm for a third open (or vestibule as the LMS liked to call them). The 42-seat thirds were intended for dining.

 

4.20pm on weekdays would be an early commuter service. Not much first class accommodation but Blackpool had a "Club Train" for the wealthy commuters.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

I am assuming this is an excursion working?

 

If so were these coaches also used in regular traffic?

This was a regular formation of everyday trains on the line in the early 1950s.

 

43 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Blackpool had a "Club Train" for the wealthy commuters.

The Blackpool and Southport lines has so many rich commuters in those days that the stock intended for the Coronation Scot was used on their commuter trains after WW2. 

 

Going on to another area, in the early 1950s trains from Birmingham to Manchester and Liverpool splitting at Crewe had the two portions formed  BTK,/TO/TO/CK/BCK. As new stock came in during the mid-1950s the TOs were relegated to lesser duties being replace by Period 3 TKs displaced from lomger distance WCML services.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

4.20pm on weekdays would be an early commuter service. Not much first class accommodation but Blackpool had a "Club Train" for the wealthy commuters.

 

11 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The Blackpool and Southport lines has so many rich commuters in those days that the stock intended for the Coronation Scot was used on their commuter trains after WW2. 

Here are some examples of the commuter workings out of Manchester Victoria in Winter 1954/55

 

 

Note the Coronation Scot articulated sets. By the 1990s the Southport train was a Pacer, four-car if you were lucky.

 

[Aire Head]

Thank you all for your input.

 

I will be specifically looking at modelling the Aire Valley in the 1950s.

 

Can I assume that train formations would be largely similar?

 

Based off what has been posted above do you think I could for example form a rake as BTK TO CK CK BTK and it not look wrong?

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you join Robert Carroll's io group you will find a lot of carriage working notices giving formations like the ones I posted.

 

https://brcoachingstock.groups.io

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

Based off what has been posted above do you think I could for example form a rake as BTK TO CK CK BTK and it not look wrong?

What lines / stations are you looking at? Will be back to the railway room in 10 minutes and will look if I have anything.

[Aire Head]

47 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

What lines / stations are you looking at? Will be back to the railway room in 10 minutes and will look if I have anything.

 

In an ideal world I'd be looking at the Aire Valley Line between Shipley and Skipton. 

 

Somewhat limited on space though so the Wharfedale line between Ilkley and Skipton is also a consideration.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

There were certainly a few vestibule coaches in regular formations on the main line through Skipton in the early 1950s.

The Skipton - Ilkley trains saw some non-corridor two-coach trains but I did notice one in 1958 (post 3rd class abolition) which was formed BSK/CK/SK/BSK. 

Another set I noticed at Skipton but on a train going in the Colne direction in 1955 was formed BTK/CK/CK/BTK.

As time moved forward the number of vestibule coaches in regular weekday trains seems to have decreased but they did turn up as strengtheners.

 

I don't see a problem with the formation you proposed, alternatively you could have a regular three or four coach set with strengthener added at one end such as

• TO/BTK/CK/BTK
• TO/BTK/CK/CK/BTK
• TO/BTK/CK/TK/BTK

It just depends on how much first class you want to include in the regular set, 18 or 36 seats if using LMS stock.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that formation looks OK for, say, Leeds to Morecambe trains. Local Settle-Carlisle trains from Leeds - Carlisle were sometimes only three carriages. But as per above, there is the basic set that would have been rostered in the carriage notices and then, on busier days, the odd extra coach or two would be added - often older types.

All my books in crates at the moment, but I have a very good one which lists all the Midland Division trains. I'll see if I can find it.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Trains from Leeds/Bradford to Morecame seemed to be anything from 3 to 11 coaches depending on the time of year, day of the week and what was attached/detached where. 

The minimum was CK/BSK/SK between Bradford and  in the late 1950s, although I found one working formed BSK/CK/CK/BSK with an extra SK on the back on Friday only. In reality the strengthener would be whatever was to hand I suspect. Another working also had a BG for Morecambe.

[Aire Head]

15 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Trains from Leeds/Bradford to Morecame seemed to be anything from 3 to 11 coaches depending on the time of year, day of the week and what was attached/detached where. 

The minimum was CK/BSK/SK between Bradford and  in the late 1950s, although I found one working formed BSK/CK/CK/BSK with an extra SK on the back on Friday only. In reality the strengthener would be whatever was to hand I suspect. Another working also had a BG for Morecambe.

 

Between Bradford and Morecambe?

 

Thanks for all the information @TheSignalEngineer and @Joseph_Pestell I'm up a certain creek without a paddle when it comes to passenger workings!

 

All I can tell by looking at the old photos is that even into the mid/late 1960s exLMS stock was still pretty dominant in the Aire Valley with MK1s largely used on the big named Expresses such as the TCE.

 

Since I definitely don't have enough space to do that justice and it only came through twice a day I'd rather get the more common workings looking right first!