Lower Thames Yard

[Tallpaul69]

Just for a change, here is some real steam!

The Leighton Buzzard Narrow Gauge Railway reopened this weekend. So here is my photo from yesterday afternoon of Doll running round her train at the Pages Park Terminal ready for the 2.30 departure to Stonehenge!

 

Cheers

Paul

[Neal Ball]

Thats a shame that you have had to change plans Paul. Good luck with Thame, I look forward to seeing that develop.

[Tallpaul69]

Not a lot to report today.

Spent the morning with my 1961 London Division Local Carriage and DMU workings book sorting out what sets were used on the Oxford to Princes Risborough line through Thame. I also redid the set of books and GWJs I keep immediately to hand to reflect the change in location.

 

I am also toying with reducing the number of loops in the main fiddle Yard from 10 to 6 so that I can have a minimalistic model of High Wycombe in front of it.

HW is attractive because a lot of the trains through Thame also passed through HW, so I can run them through both stations and this will give me better utilization of the more limited fiddle yards. For instance the morning Hinksey to Taplow freight was known to spent two hours in Thame yard, an hour at Princes Risborough and another hour in High Wycombe, so can be on the layout for a scale 4 hours plus.

HW also has the prototype of what could, in my model, be a built in screen between the station and the fiddle yard, namely the huge blue brick wall on the up side!

 

However I am keeping this to myself for a while until I get some feedback from the layout builders on my changes to their plan to make a reasonable likeness of Thame! HW would be part of phase 2 of the layout and probably is a year away. 

Another attraction of HW is that being the far end of the line from Maidenhead, I can portray a number of the same trains as I would have done for Lower Thames Yard.

 

So I hope everyone's modelling is making progress, seems we might have some sort of lockdown for the next six months, so no excuse for not getting those models finished?

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Not a lot to report today.

Spent the morning with my 1961 London Division Local Carriage and DMU workings book sorting out what sets were used on the Oxford to Princes Risborough line through Thame. I also redid the set of books and GWJs I keep immediately to hand to reflect the change in location.

 

I am also toying with reducing the number of loops in the main fiddle Yard from 10 to 6 so that I can have a minimalistic model of High Wycombe in front of it.

HW is attractive because a lot of the trains through Thame also passed through HW, so I can run them through both stations and this will give me better utilization of the more limited fiddle yards. For instance the morning Hinksey to Taplow freight was known to spent two hours in Thame yard, an hour at Princes Risborough and another hour in High Wycombe, so can be on the layout for a scale 4 hours plus.

HW also has the prototype of what could, in my model, be a built in screen between the station and the fiddle yard, namely the huge blue brick wall on the up side!

 

However I am keeping this to myself for a while until I get some feedback from the layout builders on my changes to their plan to make a reasonable likeness of Thame! HW would be part of phase 2 of the layout and probably is a year away. 

Another attraction of HW is that being the far end of the line from Maidenhead, I can portray a number of the same trains as I would have done for Lower Thames Yard.

 

So I hope everyone's modelling is making progress, seems we might have some sort of lockdown for the next six months, so no excuse for not getting those models finished?

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

There was a layout many years ago - I think it might have been John Jay's London, Bristol and South Wales - that featured High Wycombe but only the double track through the cutting. That might be an idea.

[Tallpaul69]

Good Day All,

 

Looking through relevant articles and photos in various GWJs this morning I realized that both Thame and High Wycombe goods sheds had extensions. So my work on the Maidenhead and Witney examples might not be wasted!

Also the same trawl bought up another, and better picture of the Witney extension!

 

Thame's extension was not a cover for railway wagons but a covered loading bay on the Princes Risborough end of the shed, at right angles to the rails, for road vehicles. It is possible that when lorries cane along the distance between the road bay wall of the goods shed and the back road was insufficient for them to back into the original bay particularly if there was stock in the back road.

 

I know there were mechanical horses used at Thame, so maybe they could get into the original (horse) loading bay?

 

HW's extension is similar to Witney's and Maidenheads, but is not as wide as they were possibly because HW's goods shed is a double track one. So far I only have a ground plan, an airial shot and a side shot from some distance, so I may have to make it up but it will be a year or so before I get to needing this shed  so other photos may turn up.  

 

Hope some of the books I ordered on the area will turn up tomorrow. It will be Sunday before I get to look at them as we are hosting a family (only 6 of us!) meal tomorrow.

 

Best regards

Paul

[Nick Gough]

22 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

There was a layout many years ago - I think it might have been John Jay's London, Bristol and South Wales - that featured High Wycombe but only the double track through the cutting. That might be an idea.

Railway Modeller, Railway of the Month - July 1969.

I don't know how big the layout is/was but it included stations at Paddington, Reading, Bristol, Pilning, Cardiff and Fishguard, as well as the High Wycombe retaining wall on the return leg.

[Nick Gough]

On 24/09/2020 at 22:51, St Enodoc said:

There was a layout many years ago - I think it might have been John Jay's London, Bristol and South Wales - that featured High Wycombe but only the double track through the cutting. That might be an idea.

 

16 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

Railway Modeller, Railway of the Month - July 1969.

I don't know how big the layout is/was but it included stations at Paddington, Reading, Bristol, Pilning, Cardiff and Fishguard, as well as the High Wycombe retaining wall on the return leg.

[Tallpaul69]

38 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

 

Looks like a large loft or double garage effort.

I will have to delve in my mags and see if I have this one! I didn't start buying RM regularly until c1980, but over the years have picked up quite a few earlier ones , so we will have to see!

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Nick Gough]

A few shots at High Wycombe from 2006:

[Nick Gough]

I think it's fair to say that if you compare my photos to the drawings of the original drawings of the train shed, on the Broad Gauge Society website, there were several extensions added on over the years.

 

If you have a look on Google Streetview, although it's partly covered, it looks like most of these extensions have now been demolished.

[Tallpaul69]

4 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

I think it's fair to say that if you compare my photos to the drawings of the original drawings of the train shed, on the Broad Gauge Society website, there were several extensions added on over the years.

 

If you have a look on Google Streetview, although it's partly covered, it looks like most of these extensions have now been demolished.

Nick,

These are great! Many thanks for another brilliant set of Goods Shed pics!

Can I be cheeky and ask if you have any of the rest of High Wycombe station and surrounds?

 

I managed to grab a couple of the NGR this morning, I will post them here tomorrow.

Cheers

Paul 

[Nick Gough]

5 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Nick,

These are great! Many thanks for another brilliant set of Goods Shed pics!

Can I be cheeky and ask if you have any of the rest of High Wycombe station and surrounds?

 

I managed to grab a couple of the NGR this morning, I will post them here tomorrow.

Cheers

Paul 

I certainly have Paul.

 

Leave it with me and I'll post them when I have the chance.

[Tallpaul69]

1 minute ago, Nick Gough said:

I certainly have Paul.

 

Leave it with me and I'll post them when I have the chance.

Many thanks Nick,

Thame will keep me going for a while, which is the idea of the first stage of the layout, so there is no hurry at all for more HW info!

 

Cheers

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Hi there all of you.

Three activities to report today:-

1) Making progress on reading the three books that arrived on Saturday. First there is CR Potts Oakwood Press book on the Oxford to Princes Risborough line, which has some useful details and interesting photos. Secondly there was Bill Simpson's two volumes of the History of Oxfordshire Railways. Only had a quick dip into these but for my model Volume 2 covering the south of the county is the most relevant.

 

2) Unexpectedly, when out for a work this morning came across a NGR Engineers train with gang doing tidying up of the trackside. The train was helpfully standing where the line runs beside a road, so I will post pics of this and a couple from the running day yesterday during tomorrow.

 

3) Least interesting, although hopefully the most productive towards my model, was a further exchange of e mails with my layout builders trying to resolve the issue of access to the rear of the 12ft x 4ft phase 1 (Thame) to deal with derailments etc.

I have sent them a sketch proposing that the scenic front is dished so that it is 4ft wide at each side, but 3ft wide in the centre couple of feet of the 12ft dimension. They seem keen on the same approach to the rear where the 5 storage loops are. I am not sure about this as it seems to me the length of the loops will be reduced, and they are only able to be just long enough in my opinion as it is! I await their next drawing, hopefully by the end of the week.

 

Cheers for now

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon All,

 

Here, as promised are some photos of the NGR. Two from Sunday, and yesterday's engineers train.

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

Sorry for seeming to ignoring everyone for a couple of days!

Couldn't get the new RMWeb software to work. It wouldn't allow me to post, quote , respond to posts (except to "Like".

Have changed to Microsoft "Edge" so now seems to work ok.

 

Hopefully tomorrow I can get back to normal.

Best regards

Paul 

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon All, wet as it is here in Bedfordshire!

 

Main problem with RMWeb via Microsoft Edge so far seems to be the non availabillity of my history of viewed site and threads.

I do need to work out how to stop receiving notifications when anyone reacts or posts to threads that I watch. I want to limit notifications to my own threads.

 

I spent part of this morning working out the 10 trains and their locos for the first stage of "Thame" in the three eras I want to model. As Thame never existed as a working station in my 90s and modern eras I don't need to worry so much about replacing early 60s features for those eras. I will however have to make the trainshed and goods shed removable, but will leave the station building on its own, as it did exist for a number of years.  

 

So the 10 trains in the 60s era are:-

Passenger:- up and down diverted expresses, Castle or Hall hauled; up and down local passengers, 61xx hauled or DMUs, a workmans 61xx hauled that came to and from Thame in the Oxford direction; and an auto train or alternatively a class 121 that came to and from Thame in the Princes Risborough direction. 

Goods:- through up and down Hinksey to Taplow pick ups 61xx or 56xx hauled - these often were only engines and vans past Thame to/from Princes Risborough; a local pick up, 57xx hauled from Hinksey, which shunted and then returned from Thame; and the loaded Petrol tankers that came to the Thame Fuel Depot from the Princes Risborough direction and returned  with empties. 

 

I will tell you about the later era trains in another post.

 

I am just trying to work out what, if anything I can use the Grain Silo kit that arrived with Octobers Hornby Magazine yesterday Its height would make a good view stopper, but I don't think the eastern part of Oxfordshire produced or used that much grain!

[Nick Gough]

The manual signal boxes at Princes Risborough and High Wycombe remained in use until the early 1990s so it seems reasonable that  Thame's  box could have done the same. In fact 30 miles, or so, up the line, towards London, Greenford East is still in use today at the boundary between two modern signalling centres, so could be a precedent for Thame.

 

Don't forget Frome and Kingswear still have their train sheds so you could use them as examples, although most of the others went in the 1960/70s.

 

I know you're not modelling Princes Risborough but I think more of the infrastructure there would have survived had the Oxford line survived. I don't think BR would have taken the down platform out of use and concentrated passenger traffic on the up side.

[Tallpaul69]

Morning All, another soggy day!

 

There was a scheme worked up by Chiltern Railways to rebuild the Thame line as a way to get them to Oxford. So in my model world this was done and the actual (and cheaper) cord at Bicester was never built!

 

My current thinking is to have the Thame trainshed removable, keep the brick built station building for all eras and replace the trainshed by a couple of modern passenger shelters. However there is the small matter of the footbridge! The easy way for this might be to forego the footbridge and put in steps to the road bridge which could do for all eras!

I have yet to work out a practical change for the platform lights.

 

Good idea about the signal box, particularly with the goods yard being retained. As well as the dedicated fuel sidings remaining in all eras I think for the later eras I will borrow the engineers sidings that were (still are?) the reuse of the south end sidings on the down side at Princes Risborough.

 

I did think about modelling Princes Risborough, but I just don't have the room.

 

I need to talk to Stephen Freeman who was going to make swapable/removable semaphores and colour lights for the Branch side of Lower Thames Yard about the same sort of thing for Thame.  As the signals will be cheaper for Thame I may ask him if  can do something for the platform lights .

 

Cheers

Paul  

[Tallpaul69]

Yet another soggy day!

 

However, I did unexpectedly this morning receive the latest version of the Thame plan from the layout builders.

I am pleased to say that we are nearly there, just need to sketch on this latest plan where the road at the platform end of the station goes, so that they can understand the alterations I want to the sidings.

 

I also need them to realign the two petrol depot sidings as they have them curved and a little short, and all the depots I have seen plans or photos of have straight sidings because, I think of the nature of the discharge equipment?

 

Next job will be a version of the plan showing the signal locations. I would do the signals myself as they are simple:- Fixed Distant, Home, Starter and Advanced Starter in each direction but for the fact that I want sets of semaphores and colour lights, which can be swapped between eras!

The Dapols sound attractive, but I have heard that the unplug feature is not robust.

 

I am also thinking round what would be best for the modern era.

The GW & GC seems to be mainly Chiltern 168s etc. plus a few 68s and Freightliner/Colas 66s and 70s plus unusual haulage on specials or diversions. So I will have to work out a story for regular visits by other locos. 

A possibility is to use the GWR locos, units, and stock I already have, is shared use between Chiltern and GWR with GWR running trains off the Cotswold line to Paddington via High Wycombe, and maybe locals to Aylesbury. However to do this will mean HS2 being delayed so that the access is available to Paddington from the GW & GC!

 

Hope you are all making progress with your model worlds?

 

Best regards

Paul

 

 

 

 

  

[Tallpaul69]

Hi Everyone,

I have just emailed my response to the latest plan from my layout builders which surprisingly arrived yesterday afternoon!

 

It is good news from the point of view that most of the amendments I made to their previous plan have been adopted.

However, the goods yard has needed some work because the run of the sidings did not allow the run of the main road and approach road that I wanted. But to be fair, I hadn't sent them a plan with these details on.

So in a good old fashioned British compromise, I have moved the road a bit, and suggested they move their sidings a bit!

 

The most difficult problem with the goods yard has been moving the BP Fuel Depot form the down side beyond the road bridge adjacent to the station to the up side beyond the Chinnor Road Bridge, which is only possible by accessing it off the goods yard. This in turn means that there needs to be a head shunt in the goods yard to allow the reversing of the tanks into the depot.

Also the layout builders had not realised that the sidings for the discharge needed to be straight because of the complex pipework involved , so had plotted them curved ignoring my plot of them straight on my amendment to their previous plan.

At least I assume that the pipework is the reason, as I have never seen a plan of one with curved sidings .(stands aside for the avalanche of posts siting examples of curved discharge sidings!) 

 

It looks like my thoughts in my last post as to how I will run the modern era version of the layout will have to be the basis of what is run. That is judging from the initial responses to query I posted on the Prototype forum!

 

Changing the subject, I again accidentally , but in a different place, came across the NG Engineers train this morning. I will post some photos tomorrow, including one of a Simplex in not such an advantageous location!

 

Best regards

Paul

 

 

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon All,

 

As promised yesterday, here are the best shots from my latest pics of the NGR Engineers Train.:-

 

We start with two members of staff taking their lives in their hands to stop the traffic on one of the three vehicle level crossings, none of which have road gates!

 

Once they had control of the traffic the two Simplexes soon zoomed their train across!

 

 

At first glance it looks like the chaps maning the crossing have a long walk in front of them to Pages Park. If you look carefully above the head of the middle fella you can see the back of the train which has run wrong road into the passing loop!

 

 

And finally we come to the sad sight of the remains of a Simplex which has been marooned with the wreck of an old fashioned sand wagon in the entrance to one of the old sand workings. This is now covered by a housing development, which has been there some 40? years, so a good job was made of filling in the old workings!

 

Nothing much to report on the modelling front today, except have sketched out first rough of High Wycombe that will run in front of the fiddle yard on the opposite side of the railway room to Thame.

Looks like I can only get in two up tracks and one down, the loop for the down platform will have to go!

As it is the whole thing is a tad wide for comfort, although the outward opening room door helps with access at the Princes Risborough end.

 

I can't make up my mind whether to have the Goods Yard in its correct location which will make the duck under into the room quite long, or whether to turn it round and have it beside the curve at the Beaconsfield end , which makes a bit of a nonsense of the historical facts of the Goods Shed being the first High Wycombe station!

 

Hope everyone's models are going well?

Regards

Paul

 

[Nick Gough]

Will you have room for the staggered platforms at HW?

[Tallpaul69]

37 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

Will you have room for the staggered platforms at HW?

Yes Nick, they are a must!

Fortunately they help with the width problem. I will have to look at the timetable to see the impact of only a single down track. The alternative is to reduce the number of tracks behind the "Brick Wall" in the fiddle yard.

 

I could make the middle track bidirectional but this would complicate the points at both ends of that section, so might not be advisable! 

 

At the moment I am planning in the fiddle yard on having three up, three down and one reversing (for the ER local trains). I really want to get three trains on each of the up and down fiddle yard roads, but it well require careful train composition to get them in . The reversing track may only take two trains. 

 

Fortunately the 5 track fiddle yard for "Thame" will help as all the trains held there will also go through High Wycombe although trains will leave Thame for Oxford and then appear in High Wycombe from the Princes Risborough direction and vise versa, but that is a compromise I can live with!

 

Regards

Paul     

 

[Nick Gough]

As a compromise, could you stagger the middle lines as well and just have each one in place alongside its own platform?

Have you got the space for a couple of points between the two platforms?