Roco Z21 - 2020 - New additions to the range.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Rather than clutter up the regular Z21 thread, I have posted this news item separately.

 

Previously, Roco apart from the full system Z21 (black), Roco also offered the budget models z21 and z21 Start (both white).

The z21 appears to have been dropped leaving the z21 Start as the entry level model.

I don't know what the difference (if any) there was between these two budget models.

 

New items.

 

Roco introduce the Z21 XL Series and Z21 XL Booster.

6 amp track output, aimed mainly at the larger scales.

https://www.z21.eu/en/products/z21-xl-series

 

Also new..... Z21 pro LINK

Designed for easier operation and configuring of the Z21 for networking and setting up Z21 devices and peripherals, such as WiFi devices like smartphones and tablets.

Provides automatic updates to the Z21 system.

https://www.z21.eu/en/products/z21-pro-link

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[WIMorrison]

The z21 Start has been a pain ever since the invented it - essentially a z21 that needs an unlock code from Roco to enable the network interface. I dont know how many people I have had to help with that one, they thought they were getting a fully working and very cheap z21

 

The XL boosters look good but I am struggling to see what the Z21 pro Link does to make something that is already very simple easier at a probably significant cost.

 

An update of the apps, or even a PC based app would have been a bonus

[jpendle]

I have been looking at boosters and noticed these as well.

 

I assumed that the Pro-link would allow updates to the Z21 firmware without a PC, BUT there is also an Updater App that lets you update the Z21 firmware without a PC.  It's a new app, separate from the regular app, that can be downloaded to your device.

 

Regards, 

 

John P

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

I am struggling to see what the Z21 pro Link does to make something that is already very simple easier at a probably significant cost.

 

It makes a piece of DCC kit look like it is a black Mp3 player. Maybe that has more street cred?

[melmerby]

27 minutes ago, jpendle said:

 there is also an Updater App that lets you update the Z21 firmware without a PC.  It's a new app, separate from the regular app, that can be downloaded to your device.

 

Regards, 

 

John P

Not really, it's been around for sometime.

I've had it on my Android devices almost as long as I've had the Z21.

[WIMorrison]

been around on the iPhone/iPad for quite a while aslo

[jpendle]

Just goes to show how often I visit the Z21 website

 

John P

[TomScrut]

On 31/01/2020 at 20:06, WIMorrison said:

The z21 Start has been a pain ever since the invented it - essentially a z21 that needs an unlock code from Roco to enable the network interface. I dont know how many people I have had to help with that one, they thought they were getting a fully working and very cheap z21

 

The XL boosters look good but I am struggling to see what the Z21 pro Link does to make something that is already very simple easier at a probably significant cost.

 

An update of the apps, or even a PC based app would have been a bonus

 

I don't get the thinking behind the way they set the Z21 up networking wise.

 

They supply a preconfigured router with the black ones and as a pack to go with the white ones. But because the Z21s default IP settings aren't similar to how most home routers are configured you can't just plug it in to another router and get going.

 

They claim that doing it this way is to make it easy for people to set up, which I think is absurd! At best you end up with a different WiFi network to the one with your internet on which when controlling with your phone isn't ideal. And even so why not just set the router up with a normal 192.168.1.xxx subnet instead of what they do now so it will plug and play with a normal router?! I think it is purely to get more money out of the customer, selling Wifi packs to people with the white Z21s that they got in train sets etc.

 

I have my white one set up to operate with my home network as I didn't want their router for the reason above and because I didn't see the point, but I had to plug it into my PC and change my PC IP settings to then allow me to reconfigure the IP settings on the Z21.

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

 

 

I have my white one set up to operate with my home network as I didn't want their router for the reason above and because I didn't see the point, but I had to plug it into my PC and change my PC IP settings to then allow me to reconfigure the IP settings on the Z21.

In a similar way my Z21 (black) connects to a previous WAP that was set up in my Railway Room.

The Z21 WiFi settings were changed to be in the "normal" range with some help from Iain.

That way it works with everything else.

The supplied router has never even been switched on!

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

In a similar way my Z21 (black) connects to a previous WAP that was set up in my Railway Room.

The Z21 WiFi settings were changed to be in the "normal" range with some help from Iain.

That way it works with everything else.

The supplied router has never even been switched on!

 

That's it. I cannot get my head around how their "easier" option is easier at all.

 

It's in the manuals or online somewhere a load of explaining why it doesn't connect to a normal network without some messing about, all in the name of it being easier for the customer because they don't have to mess about with networking. If they had designed it right it would plug in to most networks using DHCP and just get on with it and they could still sell their own WiFi set if they wanted to.

 

I get why they sell the network code, and for what it costs it is still a lot cheaper than a full fat Z21 without sacrificing many features.

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

That's it. I cannot get my head around how their "easier" option is easier at all.

 

That's because you know what you are doing.

 

Melmerby says he got it working on a different router "with some help from Iain"

 

It's easier for Roco to support and for a complete moron to setup, as it's self contained. Railway modelling is a broad church, I don't do brass loco kits, others don't, won't, or can't do technology.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[TomScrut]

6 minutes ago, jpendle said:

That's because you know what you are doing.

 

Melmerby says he got it working on a different router "with some help from Iain"

 

It's easier for Roco to support and for a complete moron to setup, as it's self contained. Railway modelling is a broad church, I don't do brass loco kits, others don't, won't, or can't do technology.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

The point is that had they set it up right, it would easily work with a separate WiFi kit (for the easy support for the people you speak of in your reply) or plug into the pre existing network which is at a skill level equal to anybody who has plugged a sky box, smart TV or a PC into the network.

 

The situation at the moment is the worst of both worlds as the skill level is raised because of all the messing about needed to not use their wifi.

[melmerby]

17 minutes ago, jpendle said:

That's because you know what you are doing.

 

Melmerby says he got it working on a different router "with some help from Iain"

 

It's easier for Roco to support and for a complete moron to setup, as it's self contained. Railway modelling is a broad church, I don't do brass loco kits, others don't, won't, or can't do technology.

 

Regards,

 

John P

What TomScrut is saying is valid

Most consumer WiFi/LAN products (phones/tablets etc. come with an address in the 192.168.1.xxx range and just need to be plugged or logged in to the existing router and a password entered.

Roco decided to put their's in the 192.168.2.XXX range which will not connect to existing equipment without the hassle of changing addresses for which something like a PC is required.

They supply a modem "to make it easy" but it's just extra to tack on the network, which in most cases isn't required.

 

I was quite capable of changing equipment addresses in the same subnet but not a different one and needed assistance.

As I already had a Wireless Access Point, another would have been overcomplicating it, so changing the Z21 to the same range as the others was the simplest way.

 

[WIMorrison]

@TomScrut

 

They have set it up the 'right' way.

 

They have used a default Class C address of 192.168.0.111 which is in the static range from most home routers, and certainly within the static range commonly used in mainland Europe. This means if you want to join it to your home network you simply plug it in. As it has a static address they know they can send out the Wifi Multimaus with  the static Z21 address of 192.168.0.1 and it will connect, They also know that using the same default z21 address in the app means it will work for most people.

 

If people don't have a wifi in the railway room they simply plug in the supplied wifi router and it will all connect  - instantly.

 

What will NOT work is using DHCP as people will not have a clue how to get the Z21 address to enable connection - would you know how to find the network address for a bit of kit when you don't know which network sub net it's on? I am fairy certain from your demonstrated 'understanding' that you wouldn't.

 

 

 

[TomScrut]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

What TomScrut is saying is valid

Most consumer WiFi/LAN products (phones/tablets etc. come with an address in the 192.168.1.xxx range and just need to be plugged or logged in to the existing router and a password entered.

Roco decided to put their's in the 192.168.2.XXX range which will not connect to existing equipment without the hassle of changing addresses for which something like a PC is required.

They supply a modem "to make it easy" but it's just extra to tack on the network, which in most cases isn't required.

 

I was quite capable of changing equipment addresses in the same subnet but not a different one and needed assistance.

As I already had a Wireless Access Point, another would have been overcomplicating it, so changing the Z21 to the same range as the others was the simplest way.

 

 

Actually most consumer devices use DHCP which is where it asks the DHCP server (the router in most home networks) which IP address it should use. So it doesn't matter what subnet it is set for as it will be told what to do.

[WIMorrison]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

What TomScrut is saying is valid

Most consumer WiFi/LAN products (phones/tablets etc. come with an address in the 192.168.1.xxx range and just need to be plugged or logged in to the existing router and a password entered.

Roco decided to put their's in the 192.168.2.XXX range which will not connect to existing equipment without the hassle of changing addresses for which something like a PC is required.

They supply a modem "to make it easy" but it's just extra to tack on the network, which in most cases isn't required.

 

I was quite capable of changing equipment addresses in the same subnet but not a different one and needed assistance.

As I already had a Wireless Access Point, another would have been overcomplicating it, so changing the Z21 to the same range as the others was the simplest way.

 

Keith

 

Roco do NOT use the192.168.2.x subnet and most home routers use 192.168.0.x as the subnet range.

 

Iain

[TomScrut]

27 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

@TomScrut

 

They have set it up the 'right' way.

 

They have used a default Class C address of 192.168.0.111 which is in the static range from most home routers, and certainly within the static range commonly used in mainland Europe. This means if you want to join it to your home network you simply plug it in. 

 

Have you tried this? I needed to manually configure the Z21 to a 192.168.1 IP address to be visible on the network (to the app on my phone, forget IP scanning as it's irrelevant if the app won't see it). I have yet to find a home router (in the UK) that defaults to 192.168.0 IPs but I am willing to be convinced that is the "norm". The point is if it was set up with DHCP however the router was set up wouldn't matter.

 

27 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

@TomScrut

What will NOT work is using DHCP as people will not have a clue how to get the Z21 address to enable connection - would you know how to find the network address for a bit of kit when you don't know which network sub net it's on? I am fairy certain from your demonstrated 'understanding' that you wouldn't.

 

If the app was written to find the Z21 rather than inputting the IP address then DHCP would work fine. Imagine the chaos if most consumer electronics acted like the Z21. Smart TVs, Echos, Sonos and the like. You're acting high and mighty about what I supposedly do and don't know but setting static IPs into stuff that's meant to be simple to use just sounds like stupidity to me. And if it made sense everybody else would do it too.

Edited February 15, 2020 by TomScrut

[Guest Half-full]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I don't get the thinking behind the way they set the Z21 up networking wise.

 

They supply a preconfigured router with the black ones and as a pack to go with the white ones. But because the Z21s default IP settings aren't similar to how most home routers are configured you can't just plug it in to another router and get going.

 

They claim that doing it this way is to make it easy for people to set up, which I think is absurd! At best you end up with a different WiFi network to the one with your internet on which when controlling with your phone isn't ideal. And even so why not just set the router up with a normal 192.168.1.xxx subnet instead of what they do now so it will plug and play with a normal router?! I think it is purely to get more money out of the customer, selling Wifi packs to people with the white Z21s that they got in train sets etc.

 

I have my white one set up to operate with my home network as I didn't want their router for the reason above and because I didn't see the point, but I had to plug it into my PC and change my PC IP settings to then allow me to reconfigure the IP settings on the Z21.

Connecting the z21 to your home router isn't much use if you take your layout out on the exhibition circuit!

 

I set my z21 (starter) up in no time at all, and I use a dedicated phone and tablet as interfaces.  I think having a dedicated wifi network for the z/Z21 is a good idea.

[TomScrut]

20 minutes ago, Half-full said:

Connecting the z21 to your home router isn't much use if you take your layout out on the exhibition circuit!

 

I set my z21 (starter) up in no time at all, and I use a dedicated phone and tablet as interfaces.  I think having a dedicated wifi network for the z/Z21 is a good idea.

 

The point I am making is that they could have made it simpler for those who didn't want their WiFi. I aren't saying there aren't circumstances where it made sense.

 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter as I have mine working how I want to (which was easy for me but not for those who would potentially think they could plug and play). I just don't like how they try and force a separate WiFi router onto you, which for most people would be an unnecessary expense if it was simple (i.e plug and play) to use with a home network.

Edited February 15, 2020 by TomScrut

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Keith

 

Roco do NOT use the192.168.2.x subnet and most home routers use 192.168.0.x as the subnet range.

 

Iain

Hi Iain.

Must be getting confused ( I told you before I was no good at networks.)

Where did I get 2 from?, even the Lenz 23151 is on 192.168.0.200

All my kit is on 192.168.1.XXX and most apart from the Roco* kit hasn't been changed. *(EDIT and the Lenz 23151)

This is the IP scan with Desktop, Router, 2 laptops and 2 android devices (all active)

One doesn't show 192.168.1.212 several are shown as dead but they are all on and connected!

Edited February 15, 2020 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

Keith

 

this can happen due to a number of reasons, devices may not respond to PING, the network could be congested when the PING request is sent, machine issuing PING isn’t ready for response, and a few other aspects of networks that will cause PING to be lost.

 

you can change the preferences in this tool to improve the accuracy but it will take longer and a network can be tuned to improve performance but is it worth the effort? Not really for most uses, especially as almost all network use in a home is to router and out to internet and not point to point around the house. The important figure is speed and reliability to the home router. If the response is slow or there is lots of jitter then that needs to be looked at, otherwise it is best just to accept that it works :)