“BEYOND DOVER”

[rockershovel]

On 20/11/2020 at 20:32, Northroader said:

No apologies needed for “Belgian talk” there’s bits keep appearing through this thread, and I hope continue. In this connection I thought I’d just touch on a useful source for research on old French and Belgian locos. Back in the 1980s Mike Sharman teamed up with Oakwood Press to bring out a series of books with 7mm drawings of selected lines locos: “The Portfolio Series”, I bought most of them,  and we were promised “Continental Railways. Pre 1870”, but I’m sorry to say it never happened. Probably Oakwood felt that the publications weren’t going as well as hoped, and I fancy the production costs would be higher than usual, as the books were softback, but made up entirely of fold out sheets to allow for 7mm scale drawings.

The source was from the “Locomotive Magazine”, which did articles on lots of Locomotive history illustrated by very good side elevation drawings of the locos involved. It’s a very good place to go for most British pregroup lines. The blocks of these drawings are what appeared in the Oakwood books. The GERS does a useful service by selling either a DVD or  USB download for the L.M. over the initial period of its publication, 1896 - 1923. Sadly the ones I’m on about tonight come after this period, so it’s having to track round major reference libraries to find the relevant volumes, and I’m afraid the drawings are smaller than 7mm.

May I introduce Albert Jacquet, who wrote a series of articles in the L.M. with drawings, which would have formed the basis of the missing Oakwood book. My guess is he was Belgian born, living around 1860 - 1930 time, and here’s a list of the articles, indicating which bit of the L.M. is needed.

Some Early French “Singles” (Nord,Est, PO)                     15/3/1930

                  =.                             (PLM, Nord).                        15/5/1930

                 =.                              (Nord,  Est).                          15/8/1930

                =.                               ( PO, Midi).                            15/10/1930

Early English locos of Belgian Railways. Grand Central.  15/8/1931

               =.                                                            =.                 15/10/1931

               =.                                                            =.                 15/12/1931

Early Belgian locos.                                      S.G.E.                15/3/1932

              =.                                                             =.                 15;4/1932

              =.                                       G. C. Luxembourg.         14/5/1932

              =.                                                             =.                  15/6/1932

              =.                                                             =.                  15/7/1932

              =.                                                             =.                  15/8/1932

Two Famous Engineers (Walschaert, Belpaire)

                                           2-2-2 and 2-4-0 drgs,                      15/9/1932

The Belpaire locos of Belgian State Rlys,          0-6-0.            15/8/1936

                           =.                                                   0-6-0.            15/9/1936

                           =.                                                    2-4-0.            14/11/1936

(not Jacquet, but from Lionel Weiner, and worth including here)

Steam Carriages of Belgian State Railways.                             15/11/1939.

 

Quite a lot of Jacquets early drawings, before LM tidying up, can be accessed off the Tassignon site, with some different jobs, such as a few Austrian and Italian items.

https://www.tassignon.be/trains/documentation/Drawings.php

 

 

 

Those 0-8-0 types look very purposeful, don’t they? Not sure about the inside cylinder, outside frame 2-6-0, which looks somehow incomplete or unfinished? 

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

That would be Wandlebury Ring? 

 

Indeed - not easily discerned nowadays, thanks to rampant tree growth.

 

John Isherwood.

[rue_d_etropal]

21 hours ago, Northroader said:

The trouble with the Ransome Wallis photo is that someone has removed the lovely brass cap that the square chimney locos had, making it look very ornery. All the detail is good otherwise.

Heres a link to a site giving details of the type 51, numbers, builders, and dimensions. There’s also a nice drawing, although I haven’t worked out how to do a download of it.

http://www.museedelaporte.be/patrimoine/?p=4795

By the way, looking at that site, it lists all the loco builders that built some of these. You could build up your own league to match Mikkel’s football results when you see how many constructors there were, and I think all were Belgian.

 

Tread carefully with links Nick has posted, the “Rixke” bit added to them is very dodgy, according to my software. (I’ve reported them, and the management have taken them off. Sorry, Nick, not blaming you)

one way to get copies of any image which has settings to stop downloading is a simple screen print. good enough to work from, and another one added to my personal collection. I have found , to my expense, that just saving links to useful pages is OK until someone deletes that page.

noticed there is also a pdf copy of this document at bottom of page.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

one way to get copies of any image which has settings to stop downloading is a simple screen print. good enough to work from, and another one added to my personal collection. I have found , to my expense, that just saving links to useful pages is OK until someone deletes that page.

noticed there is also a pdf copy of this document at bottom of page.

 

A better way is to right click on the image - or if that is blocked on the black surround - and select 'View Page Info'.

 

Then select 'Media'; then scroll down the list of files until you find the image you require.

 

Once the image that you require to download is visible in the lower display panel, use the 'Save As' tab to download the image to wherever you wish.

 

It sounds complex, but it becomes second nature in no time.

 

I really don't know why people try to block downloading - once you upload an image it becomes public property; (for private use only, of course).

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

I agree absolutely John.

I tried your suggestion,but I think my browser(Firefox) has changed, as I am sure I used to be able to get at source code(learnt a lot by looking through code, which is main way I used to learn when I worked in IT).

But, I noticed a button(also F9) which changed viewing mode slightly and it was then possibly to save images. I tend to do print to pdf for some pages so I can get info relating to images.

Found link to page source. What is odd is that F9 version is different, and I think is something Firefox has generated, but it does make images downloadable.

 

Would like to get hold of file layout for pdf files as print files are not complex, and I sometimes find getting images from them difficult, or they get corrupted.

Edited December 3, 2020 by rue_d_etropal
more info

[rockershovel]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Indeed - not easily discerned nowadays, thanks to rampant tree growth.

 

John Isherwood.

 

I can recall riding the Roman Road on an old BSA in the late 1970s, clear from Wandlebury to Linton. I greatly doubt that is still possible. 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I can recall riding the Roman Road on an old BSA in the late 1970s, clear from Wandlebury to Linton. I greatly doubt that is still possible. 

 

Not legally, perhaps - but it is not unknown, even now!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Compound2632]

Have we had this bit of film from 1896 before?

 

 

Wonderfully sharp. Could have been filmed yesterday.

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

The suicidal chap in the pith helmet is the spitting image of Haile Selassie.

 

There are some good shots of vintage French trains in the 1915 silent film  serial 'Les Vampires'.  This stunt is a bit hairy looking.....

 

 

 

[Northroader]

She’d need to keep her head right down, there’s tiebars between the brakeshoes not that far above. Thanks for the Lyon clip, Stephen, marvellously clear. Isn’t it marvellous how people behave when they know a camera is running? The PLM had a pile of mixed traffic 2-4-0s such as this:

 

 

the train looks like it has an old fourgon, then three second class, one of them with vigie as in this photo, then something pretty ancient on the back end:

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Northroader

[Northroader]

FRANCE PLM — LYON ST. PAUL (+ subsequent posts)

 

While we’re in Lyon, let’s have a look at the “other” station, besides Perrache and Part Dieu. Perrache is the grand  through station on the Route Imperiale, south end of town with a bridge over the Soane and a bridge the other end over the Rhône, just before they join, and Part Dieu is over the back on some lesser lines coming in from the North East.

But then there’s also St. Paul, on a stub line coming in from the North West, it’s on a short branch off the Paris main line, with other local lines fanning out beyond. Maybe the main line trains came here before the through route opened, certainly it soon became a focus for just local services, as it’s handy to reach the city, just over the river Soane. Looking at the track plan, you could link it in to  Minories, look at it and say “that’s it!”, and the very restricted situation does help no end. I’m including views on both sides to give a feel for the placing, with a nice old church on the one side. It’s just how far you want to take rationalising the track plan, these days it’s very simple, as the goods yard has been lifted, and it’s all multiple unit worked, but reinstate a siding or two, maybe forget about runrounds and have a station pilot, and you’ve got a really nifty little PLM terminus, with the train featured in Stephens film clip as the centre of the action. (Forget about the pillock in the pith helmet, though)

 

and theres more on this link:

 

https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32826

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Northroader

[Joseph_Pestell]

31 minutes ago, Northroader said:

While we’re in Lyon, let’s have a look at the “other” station, besides Perrache and Part Dieu. Perrache is the grand  through station on the Route Imperiale, south end of town with a bridge over the Soane and a bridge the other end over the Rhône, just before they join, and Part Dieu is over the back on some lesser lines coming in from the North East.

But then there’s also St. Paul, on a stub line coming in from the North West, it’s on a short branch off the Paris main line, with other local lines fanning out beyond. Maybe the main line trains came here before the through route opened, certainly it soon became a focus for just local services, as it’s handy to reach the city, just over the river Soane. Looking at the track plan, you could link it in to  Minories, look at it and say “that’s it!”, and the very restricted situation does help no end. I’m including views on both sides to give a feel for the placing, with a nice old church on the one side. It’s just how far you want to take rationalising the track plan, these days it’s very simple, as the goods yard has been lifted, and it’s all multiple unit worked, but reinstate a siding or two, maybe forget about runrounds and have a station pilot, and you’ve got a really nifty little PLM terminus, with the train featured in Stephens film clip as the centre of the action. (Forget about the pollock in the pith helmet, though)

 

 

Although it ceased to be the main station very early, through coaches for St Paul were detached at Lyon-Vaise for many years. St Paul is situated in the historic centre of Lyon which is on the right (west) bank of the Saone. Perrache led to the city centre moving onto the peninsular and now, with Part-Dieu being the centre of TGV operation, the city centre business district has migrated east again. The current Part Dieu station is about 500m south of the original station at Lyon-Brotteaux.

St Paul's continued existence is due to the rather strange layout of lines to the hilly west of Lyon. Despite all the lines being PLM, the interconnections between lines were inconvenient so St Paul was the only possible terminus. And even then, some services require a reversal en route.

The former goods yard at St Paul is not devoid of modelling interest. It is now used as a turning circle on a trolleybus route.

With Lyon and much of the surrounding land being so hilly, except to the east, the railway network was complicated. There was yet another suburban terminus on top of a hill at Croix-Rousse. This line and the funicular line which connected it to the city centre below, have now been incorporated into the Metro.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Northroader]

Thanks for the extra information, Joseph, I’m also forgetting that Brotteaux came into the mix with Part Dieu as well. My knowledge of Lyon stations is as a jolt in the middle of the night!

[Northroader]

 

Digging around, I’ve found this old postcard, full of information for a nineteenth century layout. The view is taken from above the tunnel mouth, and gives a good idea of the goods yard, even if it will need slimming down. The sidings on the left hand side can only be accessed through wagon turntables, and beyond there’s a standard PLM goods shed. The wagon with three cylinders is, I think, a gas tank wagon for replenishing the carriage lighting. You’ll see a lot of old four wheelers in the station, all with gas cylinders on the roof, another PLM trademark. The scene is just in need of a bit of what the Americans call “selective compression”.

[Andy Hayter]

10 minutes ago, Northroader said:

 

 The scene is just in need of a bit of what the Americans call “selective compression”.

 

Well that and perhaps some mainline action.  St. Paul was only ever a suburban terminus.

[Northroader]

The thing is I model limited space in O by scratch building, so I keep the locos to three axles, and four wheel coaches are very nice for my needs, so that a terminus which is used by secondary trains would do very well. In HO, with a bit more room relatively, there would be need to slip a “coupe vent” and a couple of bogie wagon lits in.

[Pacific231G]

Ever since I saw it while staying in Lyon I've thought that St. Paul would make a good model but it almost looks like a prototype for everything set up with the station raised on arches on one side, a high escarpment on the other side and the main approach poinwork a scissors crossover actually inside the 1400m long tunnel to Gorge de Loup

 

Although it ended up serving just commuter and local lines in the Oest Lyonnais it had much grander intentions.

You can see from the map that it was not primarily a spur off the main line from Paris but was really aiming firmly westwards. initially to l'Arbresle and then Montbrison but with an eye towards the Massif  Central and the ocean beyond

 

I don't think it was ever  a main station for trains from Paris. Lyon Perrache had been opened twenty years earliier in 1857 by the Paris-Lyon company, but neither does it seem likely that the Compagnie des Dombes would have cut the almost mile long Tunnel de Loyasse just for local services and though the Grand Central had failed in 1858 I think Lyon St. Paul may still have been conceived as the eastern terminus of a through line from the Atlantic. When France's main railways were consolidated into six major companies all but the Midi were focussed on Paris  and potential transversal main lines such as Bordeaux-Lyon-Geneva developed far less. 

Given its very cramped site it seems unlikely that St. Paul could ever have developed as a twentieth century main line terminus.

 

The goods yard was simplified in later years

Lyon St. Paul 1984

Lyon St. Paul 1966

 

The goods shed wasn't as large as it appears in plans and aerial surveys; it's just that the station is quite compact .

I'm afraid the photos I took there weren't that great and I was quickly shooed off by station staff even though I was on  the non railway side of the fence

When I visited it in the late 1990s the goods shed was still there though the two tracks in front of it had been lifted

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Northroader]

Thanks for posting your collection of photos, David, there’s some good views in there, such as the row of retaining arches on the downhill side, which doesn’t appear anywhere else, and is very modellable.

Thinking about doing it as a layout, (only thinking, mind)  the station would fit well in a corner situation, because of the curve, but then the high ground woul be in front, and the low ground to the rear. Would it be ethical to change the curvature to go the other way? Rule one, I suppose.

[sncf231e]

On 04/12/2020 at 22:43, Northroader said:

there would be need to slip a “coupe vent” and a couple of bogie wagon lits in.

Like this?

 

 

Regards

Fred

[Northroader]

Oh yes! Fred, just like that. Isn't that a really spectacular train?

[Northroader]

iFRANCE PLM MIXED TRAFFIC 2-4-0s.

 

Just a few notes on the PLM mixed traffic 2-4-0s exemplified by No. 910 in the film clip, as they would form a good prototype for secondary duties, and I’m sure would form the backbone of services into St.Paul. The PLM was formed in 1857, from several component companies, Paris - Lyon, Lyon -Mediterrannee, Lyon - Geneve, Rhône et Loire. Dauphine, Bourbonnais, Grand Central (Part), Dombes, and to me the strange thing is that all these companies had pretty well

the same class built for them before the formation of the PLM. The first long boiler 2-4-0, for the L-M, came from Stephensons in 1848, and later in the same year the true prototype came from Koechlin. Building continued up to 1868, 218 being made. Driving wheel diameter was 1.65m, ( 5’5” ) With differing lines and builders, there’s detail variation, but under the PLM the appearance became more standard.

Following a wholesale renumbering of the loco fleet in 1880, the numbers were 563 - 670, and 821 - 930.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Just to add a tailpiece re PLM mixte 2-4-0s, I came across a painting of one by Claude Buret, who has featured in Loco Revue. Nice shade of green, probably just as elusive and contentious as GWR loco green, set off with brass boiler bands, plus other brasswork, and a single red line out.

[cctransuk]

55 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Just to add a tailpiece re PLM mixte 2-4-0s, I came across a painting of one by Claude Buret, who has featured in Loco Revue. Nice shade of green, probably just as elusive and contentious as GWR loco green, set off with brass boiler bands, plus other brasswork, and a single red line out.

 

I'd put good money on the painting having been copied directly from the photograph above.

 

John Isherwood.

[Northroader]

It’s getting to the time of year to say thank you to all the friends I’ve gained since starting this thread, with all your posts of informed and helpful comment, Best Wishes for Christmas, and let’s hope that 2021 is a much better for everyone, and we can get some more trips beyond Dover.

[Andy Hayter]

And the very best wishes to you as well.