LNWR coaches - help

[rhydddu]

Hi all,

 

I recently came into a collection of 4mm LNWR stock. All are built from kits. I’m normally a narrow gauge man so I know little of these carrs. I’ve bought a book on LNWR carriages but wow is it a complex area. Can you help me identify them in the photos attached. My best guesses so far are beneath each image. I’d also like guidance on what locos typically ran with each set please too. 

 

 

corridor compartment coach 57ft

57ft corridor

50ft corridor arc roof compo

50ft corridor centre ducket - arc roof BK compo

50ft corridor compartments arc roof

 

brake third 50ft non corridor

57 foot third corridor with lavs at ends

 

 

corridor first second third 50ft

guard/parcels 50ft corridor

50ft guard/passenger non-corridor

50ft guard/parcels/passenger non-corridor

50ft guard/parcels/passenger non-corridor

50ft passenger non-corridor

50ft passenger non-corridor

42ft parcels plus guard ducket bogie van

 

Help! And thank you. 
 

Colin 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by rhydddu

[Nick Holliday]

Although I'm sure that a proper expert will be along soon to identify these rather lovely models, in the mean time it might help narrow things down if you could identify the materials each is made from. I suspect that the ones with full lining, including the yellow/gold lines, are probably from the PC range, no longer available, which used pre-printed sides to get a high quality of finish, but losing the effect of 3D mouldings. If they are plastic kits they are probably from the Ratio series of 50ft corridor coaches, still available. I suspect that most are etched brass, and the primary supplier of these would have been London Road Models, but I think Mallard/Blacksmith produced a few LNWR examples too.

As for locos it's difficult to be specific, as it depends on location and the sort of service being undertaken. There is a recent posting here of a SE&CR 4-4-0 hauling a train of LNWR stock on the Sunny South Express! On home territory almost any loco, apart from dedicated goods locos, might be employed in hauling passenger trains. It wasn't unknown for portions of corridor express trains to be pulled by small tanks to their final destination, or for larger "express" locos to be deployed on more local services.

 

[rhydddu]

Hi nick. Yes a number (with the full lining) are pre-printed 2D sides from PC. Most if not all of the rest are etched and appear to be by mallard. Thanks for the help. Can anyone describe the coaches better than my attempts? Thanks Colin 

[Jol Wilkinson]

It helps to know what the roof profile is, Arc, Cove or Elliptical. These two links to the LNWR Society website should help.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/Diagrams.php

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages

 

In simple terms the "latest" carriages shown are probably the PC 57' Toplight corridor versions - these were Elliptical roof and had the narrow upper  toplight windows along the corridor side built between 1912 and 1920.

 

The express locos that ran during that period would be the Whale or Bowen Cooke locos such as Precursor, George Fifth and Renown 4-4-0s, or the 4-6-0 Experiments, Prince of Wales or Claughtons. The non-corridor stock would be used for suburban, rural or short intercity duties (Liverpool to Manchester, etc.). They would typically be hauled by 4-4-2 Precursor Tanks, and the older Webb locos such as 2-4-0 Precedents and Whitworths, 0-6-2T Watford tanks, 2-4-2 Radial Tanks, etc.

 

Etched kits for many of these are readily available from London Road Models, although the larger locos were from Brassmaster kits and you would need to check availability with them. Lytchett Manor supply the GEM cast whitemetal kits but these don't compare with the etched kits in my view. 

 

Lining the etched kit carriages is not too difficult with a good bow pen and enamel paint. Iain Rathbone's book on Painting and Lining is a good guide and there was a detailed article in MRJ 52 (available SH from a number of sellers).

 

This photo shows Precursor and Watford tank locos built from London Road Models kits.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Jol Wilkinson
Additional text

[rhydddu]

Thanks for the info and links. Looking at the model photos elliptical roofs have a very pronounced High curve and are easy to spot. Cove roofs seem to bend underneath at the edges where the roof meets the sides (?) and arc roofs are the other ones. Have I got that right? Is there a better way to explain the difference between arc and cove? Thanks Colin 

[rhydddu]

I should also note I have the following locos available to me:

 

LNWR Steam railmotor

LNWR 1988 Experiment "Hurricane" 4-6-0 + tender

LNWR 0-8-2 tank 1185 class. 

LNWR 2-4-2 Webb tank

LNWR 2-2-2 Problem "Lady of the Lake" 531

LNWR 0-6-0 tender 1430 Precursor class. (Was named Victor)

LNWR 0-6-2 coal tank x 2

LNWR 2-4-0 tender "Belted Will" 1220. Improved Precedent or Jumbo

LNWR 0-6-0 tank Crewe special.

LNWR 0-6-0 tender Cauliflower goods

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The arc roof is a constant arc, the cove roof has a constant centre arc but with a small radius downturn at the sides .

 

In order;

 

Railmotors ran on their own (occasionally with a trailer carriage but not often).

The Experiment Class would be okay for rake of the bigger corridor carriages.

The 2-4-2 Webb tank would be okay for local suburban or rural routes, especially if it is the 5' 6" driving wheel version.

0-8-2 Tanks were good only.

Problems were scrapped by 1907. In their later years they were used as pilots (double heading)

LNWR Precursors were 4-4-0s so that doesn't compute.

Coal tanks were used on goods and minor passenger workings

2-4-0 Jumbos would be okay for the lesser passenger workings by 1910.

Crewe Specials were goods/shunting/station pilots.

Cauliflowers were mixed traffic so okay for local suburban or rural routes.

 

The LNWR Society website should also help with this in more detail.

 

1430 Victor was the number and name applied to a Whale  Precursor 4-4-0, built 1905, photo of my model built from a Brassmasters kit attached.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Jol Wilkinson
Spooling mustake

[Regularity]

2 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Cola tanks were used on goods

Presumably on coke trains?

[rhydddu]

Here are more photos which may help identify.

 

The 0-6-0 + tender locos are hard for me to identify. I think I have the others correct. I have assumed one of the 0-6-0 tenders is a cauliflower goods, the other is clearly not a precursor given the info above. 
 

 

also images of the carriages. They are a mix of ratio, pc models and mallard. 
 

 

thanks for all the help! 
 

Colin 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The first 0-6-0 with the small crankpin splashers is a Special DX, i.e. a Ramsbottom loco updated by Webb. It may have carried the number 1430 in it's early days but probably wouldn't have been named Victor. I don't have access to my LNWR books at present so cannot confirm that.

 

The second with the "humped" running plate is a 18" Goods, a.k.a Cauliflowers from the emblem on the centre splashers (missing from your model). They both look like white metal GEM kits, as do all the others with the exception Problem/Lady of the Lake which would have been K's and the 0-8-2T which could be a Jidenco etched kit.

[rhydddu]

Thanks. I think the Victor thing was a red herring caused by me searching up LNWR and the number 1430! 
 

special DX goods. That makes sense! 
 

so my knowledge is updated to the following:

 

Steam railmotor, mallard kit. Use on own for local passenger. 

Whale experiment "Hurricane" 4-6-0 + tender 1988, gem. Express passenger.

0-8-2 tank 1185 class, jidenco. Powerful goods. 

2-4-2 Webb tank. I think 4ft 6.  gem. Local passenger. 

2-2-2 Problem "Lady of the Lake" 531 tender, K's, Express passenger. 

0-6-0 + tender Special DX goods. 1430, GEM. Goods. 

0-6-2 coal tank 2357 K's. Mixed goods and passenger. 
0-6-2 coal tank Bachmann converted to EM. Mixed goods and passenger. 

2-4-0 tender "Belted Will" 1220. Improved Precedent nickname Jumbo, gem. Express passenger 

0-6-0 tank Crewe special. gem. Shutter/slow light goods/station pilot. 

0-6-0 tender (18” Cauliflower goods). (Could add number and emblem on centre splasher), gem. Express goods or local passenger. 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by rhydddu

[Devo63]

I don't think the Special DX Goods is a GEM model. I have a feeling it was from the M&L Premier Kit range. From memory, they also made a number of other LNWR locos - possibly a 5'6" 2-4-2T, an 0-4-0ST and 'Cornwall' both as a regular tender engine and the inspection saloon variation. I have about half a dozen GEM LNWR kits built/building at present. My GEM 4'6" 2-4-2T no.2504 is to be redecorated as Cardiff Railway 'The Earl of Dumfries' when I can find out more information about the lining etc. I don't know if it carried the LNWR lining in Cardiff service or a simplified variant.  

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

14 hours ago, rhydddu said:

Thanks. I think the Victor thing was a red herring caused by me searching up LNWR and the number 1430! 
 

special DX goods. That makes sense! 
 

so my knowledge is updated to the following:

 

Steam railmotor, mallard kit. Use on own for local passenger. 

Whale experiment "Hurricane" 4-6-0 + tender 1988, gem. Express passenger.

0-8-2 tank 1185 class, jidenco. Powerful goods. 

2-4-2 Webb tank. I think 4ft 6.  gem. Local passenger. 

2-2-2 Problem "Lady of the Lake" 531 tender, K's, Express passenger. 

0-6-0 + tender Special DX goods. 1430, GEM. Goods. 

0-6-2 coal tank 2357 K's. Mixed goods and passenger. 
0-6-2 coal tank Bachmann converted to EM. Mixed goods and passenger. 

2-4-0 tender "Belted Will" 1220. Improved Precedent nickname Jumbo, gem. Express passenger 

0-6-0 tank Crewe special. gem. Shutter/slow light goods/station pilot. 

0-6-0 tender (18” Cauliflower goods). (Could add number and emblem on centre splasher), gem. Express goods or local passenger. 

 

 

 

The 2-2-2 Problem/LOL would only have been used as pilots on the bigger expresses during the time that your later carriages were introduced. Possibly more likely to have been generally used on lighter local services by that time.

 

6 hours ago, Devo63 said:

I don't think the Special DX Goods is a GEM model. I have a feeling it was from the M&L Premier Kit range. From memory, they also made a number of other LNWR locos - possibly a 5'6" 2-4-2T, an 0-4-0ST and 'Cornwall' both as a regular tender engine and the inspection saloon variation. I have about half a dozen GEM LNWR kits built/building at present. My GEM 4'6" 2-4-2T no.2504 is to be redecorated as Cardiff Railway 'The Earl of Dumfries' when I can find out more information about the lining etc. I don't know if it carried the LNWR lining in Cardiff service or a simplified variant.  

You are right , I should have checked the LNWR Society website at the modelling link I gave above that lists SDX etched kits from LRM and Alan Gibson as well as the etched/whitemetal M&L kit. but nothing from GEM.

 

My own SDX is from the LRM etched kit although I did build a M&L's 5'6" 2-4-2T and 0-6-0 Coal Engine. I thought that they were better than the GEM LNWR kits I had built many years previously and subsequently sold when I moved from 00 to P4. The M&L kits were built with AG milled frames, the Coal Engine also got a LRM/George Norton/LRM etched 1800 gallon tender as the M&L cast version can't be adapted for P4.

[LNWR lives on]

The 50Ft Pre printed side is a D373, PC Kit.

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages?display_base_mod_photo=4cpcwd373b1

 

You also have a 50Ft D2216 PC kit

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages?display_base_mod_photo=4cratd316a1

 

One of the ratios is the D316 centre brake 1st/3rd.

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages?display_base_mod_photo=4cratd316a1

 

Another is the D318 which was a corridor composite

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages?display_base_mod_photo=4cratd316a1

 

Locos:

 

Railmotor – Blacksmith models

 

POW/Experiment - 1988 – Hurricane - GEM on what looks like a Hornby B12 chassis – Rhos on Sea Version.

 

0-8-2 – Jidenco kit – love the flywheel in the cab.

 

Lady of the Lake – That looks to be the M&L kit version

 

2-4-2 tank – 4ft 6in Version – GEM – If a white metal block for a chassis its Rhos on Sea version

 

Special DX – M&L – Brass Chassis - Definitely not GEM as they never did one of these – it was in the pipeline until M&L released theirs.

Name plate Victor - Post 1864 all goods engines were not named, and those that were named had the nameplates removed. I dont think any of the Special DX (Webb rebuilds) were named - a look in Baxter will confirm this.

 

Precedent – GEM – Looks to be on GEM White metal Chassis

 

Crewe Special – Definitely with some additions – J83 chassis replacement

 

Cauliflower – another GEM on J83 replacement chassis -

[Jol Wilkinson]

The LNWR Society list doesn't show a M&L Lady of the Lake, Only K's (the Milestones range) and London Road Models. It isn't an easy loco for which to design a kit, so I doubt M&L would have produced one as the K's was already available.

 

Brassmasters also produce(d) an 0-8-2T, but the one in the photo doesn't somehow look right about the cab, which fits with the Jidenco kit I had but sold on only partly built as I didn't think it was satisfactory.

 

The etched 50ft non corridor elliptical roof carriages could be Wizard/51L (ex Chowbent) or Mallard/Blacksmith.  Does the nearer carriage in the last photo have a Driving  compartment? If so it could be a M25/26 from the Wizard range and would go with the 4' 6" 2-4-2T. 

 

 

[LNWR lives on]

You are quite correct Jol - M&L did Cornwall, not Lady of the Lake (Problem Class) which was in K's milestone range which seems to command quite a sum nowaways on eBay.

 

It is a very very nice collections of carriages and locomotives, I hope you enjoy them.

[rhydddu]

Thanks all. Slightly confused by this comment

 

You also have a 50Ft D2216 PC kit

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages?display_base_mod_photo=4cratd316a1

 

I can’t find a diagram 2216 and the link is to diagram 316. ???

 

the stock is accompanied by around 60 wagons and vans. Plus a bunch of My own OO wagons I have now converted to EM. So I have plenty of stock to run. In addition I converted a Bachmann coal tank to EM recently. 
 

the stock is from the mixed EM/009 model of Dinas Jct by Peter Kazer c1980. I’m learning fast about LNWR. I have a layout of dinas jct myself and will be adding the standard gauge to it. 
 

I am now studying all the photos I have of the layout to ascertain consists to run prototypically. Most photos are in black and white however. These two are colour. 
 

 

thanks Colin 
 

 

[LNWR lives on]

That will be D316 sorry - I was trying to eat my lunch - reply to you and help a work colleague all in one go

 

Here is an image of Dinas from the Society Collection. SITE 266. Copyright L&NWRS Society.