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Wooden Framed Stock Used into the 1960's


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19 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

One can see it as a crumple zone. But with doors placed at 1/3 and 2/3 (as Thompson did), one can put in some serious strengthening.

 

Having numerous doors from compartment to the exterior is always going to be a serious weakness. Class 310/312 and 4-CIG/4VEP seem like oddities for their era.

Doors at 3rds seem to be a common feature of modern mu stock, and it's use in this way dates to at least the London Transport 1927 tube stock.  With the exception of the 'high density' types, the first generation dmus featured them as well.  They are, IMHO, a good idea and perhaps Thompson's best one.

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Well this thread certainly has drifted!

 

Somewhere I have read that wooden undeframed wagons were to have been eliminated by 1960, so the tank wagon was an unusual one. I can't remember where though.

 

Are you sure it wasn't a private owner - non-pool?

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The Isle of wight were still running wooden framed wagons until the end of steam and beyond in engineering trains, though a number of steel frame hoppers were drafted in. The last of the wooden frame stock went to the IWSR where some has had to be completely rebuilt. In other words, replicas made using whatever steel and cast bits were re-useable.

 

In my time on BR from 1974 I don't recall seeing any timber underframe goods stock.

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I know this is slightly off topic but I seem to remember that there was a major derailment of a passenger train in Eire in the mid 80’s (might have been even earlier) where one or more of the coaches were timber bodied, even timber framed and they literally disintegrated killing a large number of people.

 

I think this is what prompted IR to buy surplus early Mk2’s off BR as a temporary fix and and put in the order for their Mk3’s, though I could be wrong about this and happy to stand corrected.

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ICI on Teesside had a set of RCH 5 plank wagons that were still used on the mainline for moving salt into the 1970s, until one pulled apart in the middle of a train due to rot.  Although to be fair i think they were local trip workings.

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7 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I know this is slightly off topic but I seem to remember that there was a major derailment of a passenger train in Eire in the mid 80’s (might have been even earlier) where one or more of the coaches were timber bodied, even timber framed and they literally disintegrated killing a large number of people.

 

I think this is what prompted IR to buy surplus early Mk2’s off BR as a temporary fix and and put in the order for their Mk3’s, though I could be wrong about this and happy to stand corrected.

Buttevant !  .......... that was 1980 but IR had started buying MkIIs in 1972.

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On 07/02/2020 at 11:43, Boris said:

ICI on Teesside had a set of RCH 5 plank wagons that were still used on the mainline for moving salt into the 1970s, until one pulled apart in the middle of a train due to rot.  Although to be fair i think they were local trip workings.

I saw such a thing happen at Foxfield many years ago. The wagon behind rode up on top of the remains. Very dramatic to watch, and also a demonstration to how much momentum stock has even travelling slowly. 

 

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On 04/02/2020 at 20:50, hexagon789 said:

Were the surviving Gresley buffets wooden-framed or simply wood-panelled?

 

As a matter of intetest, if the latter, what was the last wooden-framed passenger stock in revenue service?

 

 

Yes, Gresley coaches were wooden framed bodies.

 

So too were the Thompson stock, although these were intended to have steel body framing, post-war conditions necessitated otherwise.

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On 07/02/2020 at 11:38, jools1959 said:

I know this is slightly off topic but I seem to remember that there was a major derailment of a passenger train in Eire in the mid 80’s (might have been even earlier) where one or more of the coaches were timber bodied, even timber framed and they literally disintegrated killing a large number of people.

 

I think this is what prompted IR to buy surplus early Mk2’s off BR as a temporary fix and and put in the order for their Mk3’s, though I could be wrong about this and happy to stand corrected.

 

Technically there were two such accidents - Buttevant in 1980 where the 1000 Dublin-Cork Super Express derailed over some incorrectly set temporary points at 65-70mph. The train had 12 coaches, six of timber construction and most of these disintegrated in the crash.

 

This prompted the order for the MkIIIs but before the first of these entered traffic in July 1984, another accident occurred at Cherryville on the Dublin-Cork mainline where a Tralee-Dublin train broke down and was rear-ended by a Galway-Dublin train proceeding under caution.

 

This accident I believe led to the concentration of timber stock to lesser used lines and limited them to 70mph, once the MkIIIs were in traffic.

 

As to MkIIs, CIE ordered 73 brand new from BREL, the first entered traffic in December 1972, with the launch of the new fleet proper with the April 1973 timetable. These were subsequently referred to as MkIId stock but are actually more akin to MkIIf.

 

The new vehicles allowed for greater service provision and a significant advertising campaign was made for them branding them as 'The Supertrain'. These were air-conditioned but vacuum braked.

 

In the early 1990s CIE was short of stock so bought some Mk2a and c from Vic Berry scrap yard in exchange for some locos. These retained their air-brakes.

 

Speeds were 75mph on CIE metals until July 1984, when the MkIIIs when it was raised to 90. 

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5 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Yes, Gresley coaches were wooden framed bodies.

 

So too were the Thompson stock, although these were intended to have steel body framing, post-war conditions necessitated otherwise.

Gresley's wooden-bodied stock was wooden panels screwed to steel frames, a quite common method of construction pre-war. There were quite a few steel-panelled non-corridor diagrams built from about 1936 on, but their construction was contracted out.

I think the the problem the LNER had was that their workshops were equipped for construction of wood-bodied coaches, and they had to think long and hard about investing in change, given their financial situation.

 

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7 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Gresley's wooden-bodied stock was wooden panels screwed to steel frames, a quite common method of construction pre-war. There were quite a few steel-panelled non-corridor diagrams built from about 1936 on, but their construction was contracted out.

I think the the problem the LNER had was that their workshops were equipped for construction of wood-bodied coaches, and they had to think long and hard about investing in change, given their financial situation.

 

I don't think so. Pre-BR, the almost standard method for building carriages was a timber frame with steel panels screwed on. Gresley and the LNER stuck with timber panelling for longer than any other railway. The LMS did start developing all-steel stock, as did the Southern once Bulleid took over, and London Transport made a specialty of it. 

 

Jim

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16 hours ago, 62613 said:

Gresley's wooden-bodied stock was wooden panels screwed to steel frames, a quite common method of construction pre-war. There were quite a few steel-panelled non-corridor diagrams built from about 1936 on, but their construction was contracted out.

 

Not according to LNER Coaches by Michael Harris, the authority on LNER stock.

He also gives a typical specification for body framing, as TheSignalEngineer has summarized above, and there's pictures of two vehicles under construction showing the timber framing.

 

The LNER did order two small batches of all steel stock from outside contractors in 1927/8, one for Open Thirds, the other for BGs. They're described as costing around a third more, being one and a half to two tons heavier, and heavier on maintenance than the teak bodied equivalents.

 

Steel paneled timber framed stock did start to appear in the late 30s, mostly on suburban and secondary mainline sets, but also with the Streamlined stock.

 

The post-war stock is described as having intended to be all steel. However, the number of new coaches required to make up for the war losses, lack of new building, deferred withdrawls, and maintenance backlog, meant that the post war restrictions on steel use necessitated timber framing having to be retained.

Both main carriage works, Doncaster and York, suffered major fires during the war and had to be rebuilt, so the works facilities didn't have an effect on the construction of post war stock.

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On 08/03/2020 at 09:27, 62613 said:

Gresley's wooden-bodied stock was wooden panels screwed to steel frames, a quite common method of construction pre-war. There were quite a few steel-panelled non-corridor diagrams built from about 1936 on, but their construction was contracted out.

I think the the problem the LNER had was that their workshops were equipped for construction of wood-bodied coaches, and they had to think long and hard about investing in change, given their financial situation.

 

I think we have a confusion over the word 'FRAME' here - yes, the chassis was steel but the body frame - on virtually everything prior to the Mk1s was timber - whether steel or teak panelled on the outside..

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