Southern Region Push-Pull Working in the mid-1980s

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

I'm wondering if my memory is playing tricks on me, so I would be grateful if someone more erudite than me can shed some light on this query:

 

In the mid-1980s, I spent a long weekend in a guest house situated just to the west of Wareham in Dorset, where the railway runs parallel to the A352.

 

Whilst there, I recall a diesel locomotive hauling what appeared to be a single auto trailer, seemingly on a cross-country service. I would have said that the loco was in grey livery.

 

I can't seem to find anything to bear out my memory, so is it at fault? After 35 or so years, I wouldn't be surprised. But for someone who knows little about such things, it would be interesting to know.

 

Many thanks and best regards,

 

Mark

Edited February 7, 2020 by 2996 Victor
Geography

[phil_sutters]

Could it have been an engineer's inspection saloon. This is the only photo I have of one - in a rather different setting!

I just realised how different this view would look now with the old Town Hall burnt out and rebuilt with a new centre part, the flats to the left demolished and new blocks of flats in the centre of the picture..

Edited February 4, 2020 by phil_sutters
Additional info

[keefer]

DB975025 was the SR General Manager's Inspection Saloon, converted from a Hastings DEMU buffet car.

It gained driving cabs and had control jumpers & air pipes fitted so that it could work in multiple with cl.33/1 and cl.73 locos.

There were tables and chairs at each end and kitchen & toilet facilities in the centre.

Had blue/grey livery with yellow ends in the '80s

http://www.preservedthumpers.com/all-975025-caroline.html

 

There was another saloon TDS70155 used mainly for driver training, similar in layout but without the control jumpers/air pipes:

73 107 + Saloon TDS70155 at Ashford, Kent. 1983. by Adrian Nicholls, on Flickr

 

There's  always a chance that a 'normal'  BR inspection saloon was used, like TDM395280 - it would depend on the purpose of the journey

http://www.departmentals.com/departmental/395280

Edited May 31, 2022 by keefer

[Tim Chambers]

Almost certainly a driver training/inspection saloon and ermmm, I think you'll find that Wareham is in Dorset!!

Best wishes,Tim.

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

Many thanks for your responses - that all makes perfect sense. I remember thinking at the time how odd it would be if it were an auto-fitted passenger working, but being unaware of modern (then!) goings on, I consigned it to the interesting but not currently relevant.

 

And @Tim Chambers you're absolutely right - most embarrassing as I'm from Somerset and know the south coast quite well  

 

Thanks again!

 

Mark

[Wickham Green]

31 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

..... I remember thinking at the time how odd it would be if it were an auto-fitted passenger working, ........

At that time, of course, virtually every passenger working through Wareham would have been operated in Pull & Push mode - one or two TC sets with a 33/1.

[Oldddudders]

The mid-80s would be the time that project planning for Bournemouth - Weymouth electrification would be going on. Video-taping of the route had also been seen as valuable for engineers back in Croydon, where design work would be carried out. Plenty of reasons for a saloon to be used there at that time. 

[2996 Victor]

58 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

At that time, of course, virtually every passenger working through Wareham would have been operated in Pull & Push mode - one or two TC sets with a 33/1.

 

I hope you'll forgive my ignorance, but I would imagine these units as being akin to DMUs - sorry if I'm wrong, but I really don't know much about that era!

 

My memory is of a locomotive with a single coach that had the appearance of an auto coach, which, assuming it was an inspection saloon as suggested above, is probably what I saw!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

Edited February 5, 2020 by 2996 Victor

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

I hope you'll forgive my ignorance, but I would imagine these units as being akin to DMUs - sorry if I'm wrong, but I really don't know much about that era!

4TC units, as used on the route from 1967 until 1988, appear exactly like other Southern EMUs of the era. They just lack shoes and traction motors, hence being pulled or pushed by a Class 33.

[Wickham Green]

Indeed ........... and that's certainly NOT what Victor saw ................................... if the 'auto-trailer' was being hauled and the loco was grey, might this have been something to do with Wytch Farm ?

[roythebus]

On 05/02/2020 at 10:55, Oldddudders said:

4TC units, as used on the route from 1967 until 1988, appear exactly like other Southern EMUs of the era. They just lack shoes and traction motors, hence being pulled or pushed by a Class 33.

Or a REP, or a couple of VEP/CIG/BIG combinations! The list is almost endless from the Southern EMU fleet. If it had standard SR jumpers, buckeyes, and high level pipes they could run together and be driven from any cab. With just air pipes they could be hauled by and loco with air brakes.

[Gwiwer]

The description OP provides fits very well with the need to video / assess the route for electrification at the time and for which the former Hastings line DEMU buffet car - come - Manager's Saloon would have been in use.  

 

There was nothing running to or from Wych Farm, other than occasional tankers, and certainly not to the then youthful Swanage Railway at the time.

 

Passenger trains were formed of 33/1+4TC with the locomotive at the Weymouth end.  A few peak and summer Saturday workings were diagrammed for 2x4TC but with a single loco these lost time especially in the Up direction having to climb Bincombe and Parkstone banks.  2x33/1 was a luxury seldom afforded but was certainly an occasional feature.  For a couple of years the direct Swanage - Waterloo trains were 2x4TC+33/1.  

 

Summer services brought a bit of variety with a couple of inter-regional trains typically formed of class 47 and Mk1 coaches and always with the loco leading since they were not push-pull trains.  Other diesel classes also made infrequent appearances on those trains.  

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, roythebus said:

Or a REP, or a couple of VEP/CIG/BIG combinations! The list is almost endless from the Southern EMU fleet. If it had standard SR jumpers, buckeyes, and high level pipes they could run together and be driven from any cab. With just air pipes they could be hauled by and loco with air brakes.

How could any of those EMUs pull or push a TC beyond Bournemouth when the line hadn't yet been electrified? The OP is talking about Wareham?

[phil_sutters]

This appears elsewhere in RMweb - grey loco and something that looks like and autotrailer. This appears to be the route training version according to posts further down the thread.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by phil_sutters
Additional info

[keefer]

The thing I meant to point out in my original answer was that even though the other inspection saloons did not have the high-level pipes etc. for full multiple control of the loco, they were propelled as often as they were hauled (authorised up to 50 or 60mph I think).

The saloon 'driver' would have control of the brake but presumably there was a driving 'plan' agreed with the loco driver before setting off? (As I don't think there was even a radio/intercom link between the two)

[DY444]

16 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Passenger trains were formed of 33/1+4TC with the locomotive at the Weymouth end.  A few peak and summer Saturday workings were diagrammed for 2x4TC but with a single loco these lost time especially in the Up direction having to climb Bincombe and Parkstone banks.  2x33/1 was a luxury seldom afforded but was certainly an occasional feature.  For a couple of years the direct Swanage - Waterloo trains were 2x4TC+33/1. 

 

For a number of years there were two Weymouth line summer Saturday workings booked for 2 x 33/1 + 8TC.  One up in mid-morning and a return down in the late afternoon.  Looking at the 33/1 locomotive diagrams the main reason seems to have been to get a 33/1 normally spare at Weymouth up to Bournemouth to work a Weymouth round trip on a summer Saturday Waterloo extra and then back to Weymouth again afterwards.

Edited February 7, 2020 by DY444

[2996 Victor]

12 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

This appears elsewhere in RMweb - grey loco and something that looks like and autotrailer. This appears to be the route training version according to posts further down the thread.

 

 

Thank you, @phil_sutters, from my hazy 35-year-old memories, I'd say that fits the bill almost exactly - it's easy to see how, to the unitiated, that could look like an auto-working! I do seem to recall the inspection saloon being pushed, which presumably was the whole point of the inspection.

 

Thanks again and best regards,

 

Mark