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Bachmann class 150 DMUs


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On 22/11/2021 at 08:35, cs233 said:

Held the GMPTE unit at the weekend, the comments about the errors are very evident and valid but what hit me is how much the white stripe stands out. On the prototype it almost blends to some degree to the upper body colour and is not severe on the eye. Due to the upper body being the wrong colour the white stripe stands out significantly and it should not. Was excited when first announced but not tempted unless Bachmann were to supply replacement bodies that resemble the prototype correctly.

 

 

 

That is going to be the issue here. Now that Dapol provided replacement bodies first for the class 68 it has forced others to do likewise. Bachmann have with the DRS 20, but actually there is nothing forcing this to be a precedent. A company can just as easily state that it will not and that they are sold as seen. People will be buying them knowing of the errors, but many will see it is acceptable as they stand. It might mean some negative PR when someone declines the chance to replace bodies that have been shown to have errors but they will factor in the cost of doing this, verses the damage or issues to their reputation or sales done by this. At one point someone will say that they will take the hit and then this becomes a case by case basis. I think this will be the marker where Bachmann decline and thus the idea of replacement bodies being done on demand was short and sweet.  

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On 16/11/2021 at 13:00, e30ftw said:

Agreed, it seems to be obviously the wrong shade/colour, it would be nice to see how Bachmann justify this.

 

It's the same 'grey' as seen on their Mk2f, not seen any grumbles about that.

 

On 21/11/2021 at 14:46, james-htfc said:

The early WIPAC light clusters on the 66s were fully painted, then they started just painting black on the front. It just looks so wrong!

 

I discussed this with David Haarhaus yesterday. He explains more in the video which will be in our virtual show on 4/5 December.

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15 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It's the same 'grey' as seen on their Mk2f, not seen any grumbles about that.

 

I think these pictures mentioned earlier sum up how inaccurate the colour is:

 

gmpte2.png.9b73dbdc3e5cdec8d414060822c1b83a.png

There also can be no doubting that the GMPTE logo simply does not represent the prototype, the actual shape is wrong and furthermore Bachmann have also managed to get the colour of this wrong also. The main issue though is the upper body colour look how prominent the white stripe is on the model which simply does not represent the prototype.

 

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Part of the problem here is that we are comparing a picture of a model shot under artificial light against a real life unit shot in daylight (which can vary itself according to weather and time of day). That real life unit may also have faded over time due to sunlight and general wear. In many ways it would be remarkable if the two did look exactly the same.

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1 hour ago, cs233 said:

 

 

gmpte2.png.9b73dbdc3e5cdec8d414060822c1b83a.png

There also can be no doubting that the GMPTE logo simply does not represent the prototype, the actual shape is wrong and furthermore Bachmann have also managed to get the colour of this wrong also.

 

 

Apart from the lack of radiused corners to the box, the shape appears to match the one on a Regional Railways station sign.

20211125_102130[1].jpg

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Depends on the lighting conditions… there are several exec light greys in play in my photo below of my 150/1 and /2 3 car set (Bachmann and Railmatch) and they all look more or less the same to me. I’d say the latest 150/2 pics look similar. Would be good to see original 150/1 and the new 150/2 in same photo side by side. I expect they are the same.

 

305AA468-066C-4FC9-A23A-5705D745C2D4.jpeg.acccffba79462902a342b8034fc3bd27.jpeg

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I'm getting bit more than ticked off with people moaning "oh the colours not right", or "it's over priced".  Remember that the power is with you and if you don't like the livery application, don't buy it!  It's quite simple really  :banghead:.  Same applies to people complaining that their over priced, but fail to acknowledge that there's a container shortage and when you can get one, it's hire rate has gone up from £3K to £17K and still rising.  The cost of materials, the labour in China has gone up significantly and we're getting close to the dreaded Chinese new year.

 

Before x,y and z say that a certain manufacturer has kept their prices lower, all is true but, and a big but, you might find that the price was locked between the factory, brand owner and distributer on the first run but any other runs, there will probably a significant price hike.  I know people will also say "bring the factory back to the UK", but do you really want to pay double or more likely treble the price now for the same quality.

 

Gripe over, so I'll sit back and watch the mud slinging :jester:

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6 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I'm getting bit more than ticked off with people moaning "oh the colours not right", or "it's over priced".  Remember that the power is with you and if you don't like the livery application, don't buy it!  It's quite simple really  :banghead:.  Same applies to people complaining that their over priced, but fail to acknowledge that there's a container shortage and when you can get one, it's hire rate has gone up from £3K to £17K and still rising.  The cost of materials, the labour in China has gone up significantly and we're getting close to the dreaded Chinese new year.

 

Before x,y and z say that a certain manufacturer has kept their prices lower, all is true but, and a big but, you might find that the price was locked between the factory, brand owner and distributer on the first run but any other runs, there will probably a significant price hike.  I know people will also say "bring the factory back to the UK", but do you really want to pay double or more likely treble the price now for the same quality.

 

Grip over, so I'll sit back and watch the mud slinging :jester:

 

I know this inflation malarkey is bad as to get over all these Bachmann price hikes I can't afford I popped into a pub for a pint..... £6.40 a pint. It's like I've been in hibernation for a decade and just woken up. Thankfully it's pretty much a cashless society these days so I was saved the embarrassment of handing over a fiver and expecting change.

 

 

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6 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I'm getting bit more than ticked off with people moaning "oh the colours not right", or "it's over priced".  Remember that the power is with you and if you don't like the livery application, don't buy it!  It's quite simple really  :banghead:.  Same applies to people complaining that their over priced, but fail to acknowledge that there's a container shortage and when you can get one, it's hire rate has gone up from £3K to £17K and still rising.  The cost of materials, the labour in China has gone up significantly and we're getting close to the dreaded Chinese new year.

 

Before x,y and z say that a certain manufacturer has kept their prices lower, all is true but, and a big but, you might find that the price was locked between the factory, brand owner and distributer on the first run but any other runs, there will probably a significant price hike.  I know people will also say "bring the factory back to the UK", but do you really want to pay double or more likely treble the price now for the same quality.

 

Grip over, so I'll sit back and watch the mud slinging :jester:

 

Do you secretly work for Bachmann? (just joking)

 

I dont understand how you could be annoyed with people being upset that the colour is wrong or people think it is a bit pricey for a 2 car DMU, that isnt a brand new tooling.  Is this not a place for people to discus models and put over/discuss there opinions?

 

People have said they would have been intrested but the livery is wrong..........so on that basis they will not purchase it, are they not allowed to voice a reason as to why they would not purchase a product? I know its a bit tiresome with people always critiquing models to the nth degree. However this isnt like an underframe bracket is slightly the wrong shape, its the wrong colour (on the face of it) The wrong colour of a niche livery, anybody wanting the GMPT model would really want one in that livery and its (on the face of it) wrong.

 

We have opinions and anecdotal evidence it is wrong, the only proof would be a model photographed in natural lighting, to put the matter to rest.That in its self isnt a cost issue for Bachmann its just the wrong colour that got tampo printed on, an easy mistake to avoid.

 

There are numerous threads on this forum where price is raised as a concern, i would suggest more and more people as time goes on but a lot of it is ignored by the model press or manufacures. We are mostly adults and understand the reasons for cost increase but there dosnt seem much push back or questioning going on. People just seem to accept it, just seems strange to me. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, e30ftw said:

There are numerous threads on this forum where price is raised as a concern, i would suggest more and more people as time goes on but a lot of it is ignored by the model press or manufacures.

 

It's not ignored by the press - we've talked to two different manufacturers about it this week and you'll see one interview in the Virtual Show. But there is nothing we can do about it other than report the prices of models, which we do. 

 

Manufacturers set the price point based on a large number of factors, not least of which is covering rising cost (have you seen how much shipping has increased recently?) and making enough profit to keep the business running. Happiness of forum dwellers has to be set against sales. If a model sells out, is the price really too high? They know the sales, neither you or I do. 

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The price is the price, you either pay it or you don’t.

 

It’s really that simple.

 

Moaning about the price won’t make them cheaper, the only way they come down in price is if no one buys them.

 

But if you wait for that you have to accept there may be more people happy to pay the price and you will lose out.

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I know it’s a contentious view, but as someone who does a repaint now and again, i’m saying the upper bodyside grey is right from the pictures seen so far. I did an old Dapol 150/2 in this scheme back in the 90s and had the livery diagrams (long gone now of course!) the upper bodyside is Rail grey - found most frequently on the bottom half of triple grey sector liveried freight locos of the late 80s/early 90s. There was a clear separation of the stripes and the upper body grey in ex-works condition. 
 

The M logos are obviously wrong but easily corrected with Fox Transfers! 

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Will let people come to their own conclusions on the colour, this is an ex works GMPTE livered unit. It still has original cowling something the units only carried for months in this colour scheme before the lower cowling element was removed:

 

150GMPTE2.png.b39d3d90f9ce7e5b7f28018af0a76ada.png

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16 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Manufacturers set the price point based on a large number of factors, not least of which is covering rising cost (have you seen how much shipping has increased recently?) and making enough profit to keep the business running. Happiness of forum dwellers has to be set against sales. If a model sells out, is the price really too high? They know the sales, neither you or I do. 


I think the factor that Bachmann used here was what is the price of the class 158... then pitch the 150 at the same price as its a 2 car unit as well. Some logic to it, but a lot of what looks like profiteering given they make the class 150 and customers will want it. They then take a choice - to buy or not - but perhaps that large range of factors to decide your price in the end is up close to your range of units overall and so you then raise to match it. Everything might have gone fine were it not for glaring livery errors, but price increase seems to be something Bachmann is becoming renown for, if they weren't already. 

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11 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:


I think the factor that Bachmann used here was what is the price of the class 158... then pitch the 150 at the same price as its a 2 car unit as well. Some logic to it, but a lot of what looks like profiteering given they make the class 150 and customers will want it. They then take a choice - to buy or not - but perhaps that large range of factors to decide your price in the end is up close to your range of units overall and so you then raise to match it. Everything might have gone fine were it not for glaring livery errors, but price increase seems to be something Bachmann is becoming renown for, if they weren't already. 

 

I'll assume that you are far better informed than I am on the thinking behind any price decisions. However, "profiteering" on a very discresionary purchase? To justify that accusation, you'll need to tell us what an "acceptable" profit is on such an item for a start. And please show your working.

 

To help, here's the defination from the Mirriam-Webster dictionary:

 

Definition of profiteering : the act or activity of making an unreasonable profit on the sale of essential goods especially during times of emergency

 

This is, of course, why we normally stamp on price discussions. They aren't producting, or useful, but hey-ho.

 

 

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2 hours ago, cs233 said:

Will let people come to their own conclusions on the colour, this is an ex works GMPTE livered unit. It still has original cowling something the units only carried for months in this colour scheme before the lower cowling element was removed:

 

150GMPTE2.png.b39d3d90f9ce7e5b7f28018af0a76ada.png

 

Except that top picture isn't taken in daylight - it's very brown/orange - which suggests sodium light on the station. The white band is has the RGB 241:237:233 not 255:255:255.

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32 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Except that top picture isn't taken in daylight - it's very brown/orange - which suggests sodium light on the station. The white band is has the RGB 241:237:233 not 255:255:255.

Indeed it is true the image is not in daylight but then we have considerations what type of daylight is acceptable? Whilst the below image is in a daylight setting on a 150\2 series unit the livery specification is the same. The unit is reasonably clean not ex works but certainly wearing a livery applied for less than 12 months so would not expect significant fading. Of course it comes down to many factors I can only say with my human eye without technical analysis the colour does not seem to be a reasonable match, although then it comes down to what is reasonable?1502GMPTE.JPG.cf689e554b13cfcd257118a1d22f0a65.JPG

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1 hour ago, The Black Hat said:

I think the factor that Bachmann used here was what is the price of the class 158... then pitch the 150 at the same price as its a 2 car unit as well.

 

One thing we do not know is how much Bachmann would have wanted for a 158 had they done one this year, and so we can't really compare vs this year's pricing. I do however expect the 158 will be more expensive to make given it is probably a little more complicated.

 

I do think profiteering is a strong word for this situation, but I do think they do (and understandably so) charge what they think they can get away with. As an example, they knocked at least £20 off the RRP of their 66 when the Hattons one was getting near fruition IIRC, because I assume they were reacting to the market.

 

The thing is though, if they keep selling then it is the right price. As I think I said earlier in this thread, I felt the Northern version of this unit was too expensive, but I was patient and got it for what I wanted to pay for it.

 

18 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

If a model sells out, is the price really too high?

 

Exactly, assuming something sells out without being sat on the shelf and/or being heavily discounted from the manufacturer then I'd expect that could be regarded as successful. I wonder how the manufacturers react next time when the stuff doesn't sell quickly though. Do they reduce the price on a same sized run to boost sales (but make less profit on the run) or do they make less and increase the price to try and maintain profit? If the latter then it may almost become a cycle of increasing prices and smaller runs, and people "talking with their wallet" actually end up exacerbating the situation and pricing themselves out of the hobby. It is possible that the sweet spot of supply/demand/profit at the moment is with smaller runs, and it is important that these companies do make money.

 

I think part of the issue is that we have never had it better in terms of choice which makes people's shopping lists long and expensive, especially with the fear that something gets done once possibly never to be done again.

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25 minutes ago, cs233 said:

1502GMPTE.JPG.cf689e554b13cfcd257118a1d22f0a65.JPG

 

Again, looking at the white bar - Top image is 136:145:173  and the bottom one 253:255:255. Top image is too blue, so again, not much use as a colour guide.

 

27 minutes ago, cs233 said:

Of course it comes down to many factors I can only say with my human eye without technical analysis the colour does not seem to be a reasonable match, although then it comes down to what is reasonable?

 

"Of course it comes down to many factors I can only say with my human eye without technical analysis the colour does not seem to be a reasonable match to me, although then it comes down to what is reasonable?" is what you mean. Colour matching on models is a nightmare. You can't just use the same paint on the model as was used on the real thing, colour doesn't scale (opens a can of worms) so the shae picked has to be a judgement call. Neither of your photos is a useful guide, they can be affected by the light and film (for older shots) emulsion. Our eyes see different shades too - especially in men thanks to a degree of colour blindness.

 

Basically, you make your own mind up. If it looks right to you, great. If not, save your money. Or, get some of those old sodium lights used at the NEC, then the paint colour is the least of your worries!

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Sadly if people keep buying models with multiple errors for very high prices, there isn't much incentive for manufacturers to pay attention to detail or keep prices at sensible levels.

 

One can only hope the prices being charged by Bachmann encourages other manufacturers to produce more DMU models as they are clearly doing very well on these. Anyone will try to profiteer if they are the sole or primary supplier of a particular good and face little competition.

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I lived amongst these units, and my own recollection is the units were darker, the livery felt dark, compared to contemporary units in “lighter airy liveries. It certainly felt more “executive” than the GMT Orange/White and Brown it replaced.

 

So when the pictures emerged looking lighter,I was surprised. My own pictures are a bit mixed depending which side of the sun I took them, and the weather (usually wet).

 

But on balance I think the Bachmann model looks closer to my recollections of the livery than the other real photographs, but admit the real world photos presented so far don't seem to convey it.


Here is one of mine below.. typically wet manchester day.. but looks darker than the other images provided… if anyone is able to adjust my image to correct the exposure, and bring out the image please feel free to do so…

colour points to note is the “Bright” yellow high speed warning on the right, the red light traffic light on the left.


BA9A7BD8-D2D2-4083-B105-778A456E860A.jpeg.585a1b5f1d3192367b7c8a31dd52187b.jpeg

 

But to me, my picture looks closest to the below so far, admittedly its under exposed, but in those days that was a trade off between poor light, 100ASA film and an object moving at 75mph.. as well as a teenage photographer.…


.

F219E9BF-D12B-4BD9-A8A7-47A852B60212.jpeg.8e9058b52d0b4e73743e07e10869fe44.jpeg

if I underexpose the model picture to be a bit more like my own.. the difference is even closer.

BDDD9AF9-9C0B-4470-9865-CF678E55A739.jpeg.555a92f78903a9576f391b41b1e8c996.jpeg


it might not be perfect, but no model is, but I think its being overplayed. Its a livery I never thought would be done and its not a bad effort by any means.

 

 its enough to move me to support the model, I think its fine… there is a risk if it was much lighter it would be too reflective, and not highlight the white line separation between the red stripe and the grey.

Edited by adb968008
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On 25/11/2021 at 19:56, Phil Parker said:

 

You might want to investigate "scale colour" first. 

so if it matches RAL xxx or BS xxx paint sample but when its scaled down, looks a very different shade is it right or wrong? Thats the question. I would argue it is wrong while it may be technically correct. :jester:

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