The Running of Exhibition Layouts

[JST]

Just a musing and wondering really and not a criticism. I watch a lot of railways modelling exhibitions on youtube as I live in France and it is a bit tricky to get top the real thing. I look on in awe of some of the modelling skills of the exhibitors  and then sometimes wonder about some of the superb layouts which seem to me to be spoiled by erratic running locos/trains. Some of them take off like a rocket, stop dead on a sixpence from about 80mph and jerk about all over the place. I have never exhibited a layout so maybe there are factors I don't understand about moveable layouts but why, if I can mess about with loco programming to get smooth starts and stops, cannot these top line modellers?

 

Like I said, just a musing.

[skipepsi]

Lots of them are analogue and may have operators who prefer making to driving?

[Pete the Elaner]

7 minutes ago, skipepsi said:

Lots of them are analogue and may have operators who prefer making to driving?

I don't really think analogue is so much of an issue, but your second point is very valid.

Some modellers are very talented at making layouts look good but for them, electrickery is just that. They accept that sort of working is about as good as it gets. (In reality, sort of working is as good as they can get).

Others are good at the electrical side of things, but may not be so good with adding detail.

There are also some good at both.

 

You would hope that in a club, you have a mixture of both, so you get more layouts which work well & look good.

The fact that this isn't always true illustrates that many don't really understand a lot of electrical concepts.

[great central]

I think a lot of it comes down to lack of observation of the real thing.

Yes there can be issues connected with the wiring or whatever of a layout, biggest thing is most likely dirty wheels, it's surprising how quickly they can get coated in crud when in constant use. 

How many times does the average home operator use their layout for say, 7 or 8 hours each day solid, as this is what exhibition layouts are doing.?

There's one well regarded layout really annoys me as it's not worked anything like the real thing would, maybe I'm biased but working on the real railway it's really noticeable to me.

[LNERandBR]

I'm a firm believer that you should do your upmost to keep something moving on an exhibition layout.

 

Observation of prototypical practice is certainly a second goal to me. It helps to have prototypical pointwork and signals and having these wired to assist in correct operation.

 

It also really helps if things work reliably. If basic troubleshooting doesn't solve a derailment issue then the offending piece of stock should be removed. Then operation can contine.

 

What really annoys me is when your stood looking at a layout and nothing is moving. The operators stood having a private and unconnected chat behind the layout rather then operating.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

On some exhibition layouts the trains can't be seen by the operators often because of the backscene. Combine this with dirty wheels, tired or inexperienced operators and lack of knowledge of how other owners locos behave and good running may become the exception.

 

If the layout is DCC then the momentum feature may help but it may be set very low to speed up fiddle yard operations. DCC may bring more consistent speed. Many exhibition layouts can only be set up in full at exhibitions.

 

Pickups on RTR stock seems to be getting worse. Some O gauge modellers are fitting Stay alive capacitors on DCC fitted locos to bridge 5 second interruptions. I'm not sure that should be necessary with the weight of O gauge locos and the physical attributes to fit reliable pickups.

Friction in RTR locos seems to be getting higher making starting and stopping more unpredictable.

 

At one club open day I was distracted by a dog that trotted into the building, took my sandwiches from inside my bag, ate them and pee'd on one of my stock boxes. At the last IMREX show in Westminster I was the only operator on a club layout at the start of the first day due to a late running train and puffs of smoke started coming from the points. The hall had underfloor heating and a glazed roof where the Easter sunshine was streaming in. The rails next to the ends of the live frogs had expanded and were heating up due to partial shorts.

 

I was lucky enough to help operate a club layout at Warley and all sorts of operators and stock appeared that were new to the layout and untested.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[LNERandBR]

Oh it is always fun on a club layout where a club member rocks up pulling a random loco from their bag demanding to run it. Doesn't matter to them if its a pre-war A4 and the layout is set in the 80s 

 

Problem of course is our wonderful hobby is very diverse. There are many people who are very happy with their 8ft by 4ft railways where they run whatever they fancy. Equally, there are a great many who strive for increased realism and observation of the prototype.

 

The great difficulty is trying to keep both of those types of people happy. Especially when your only a small club and struggle to get willing layout operators. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

...Some modellers are very talented at making layouts look good but for them, electrickery is just that. They accept that sort of working is about as good as it gets. (In reality, sort of working is as good as they can get).

Others are good at the electrical side of things, but may not be so good with adding detail.

There are also some good at both.

 

You would hope that in a club, you have a mixture of both, so you get more layouts which work well & look good...

My experience suggest that clubs are dominated by those who want to make models, and technical know how and even interest in the operational side is a long way second. And if there is a conflict between 'looking good' and operation quality, the latter flies out of the window. In the long ago I cleaned the railheads of a carefully set up exhibition layout quite late in the evening, and then tested, and lo! it worked well. Great was the unhappiness. Quite a lot of the railside paint had been rubbed off. It was restored. Running was poor all the following day. It's a compromise, the inside of the rail is best showing more bare metal than the prototype appearance.

 

2 hours ago, great central said:

...Yes there can be issues connected with the wiring or whatever of a layout, biggest thing is most likely dirty wheels, it's surprising how quickly they can get coated in crud when in constant use. 

How many times does the average home operator use their layout for say, 7 or 8 hours each day solid, as this is what exhibition layouts are doing...

Put your finger on a critical factor there. I operate a lot, and given half a chance will operate all day, intensively, trouble free. Put that same layout and stock in a well attended exhibition and it will not sustain that performance. The vapour and the fluff from the attendees 'falls out' and it isn't conductive. Regular systematic rail cleaning is required to compensate. If using a commercial gauge then being friendly and allowing show attendees to test new purchases just compounds on this. The large majority of wheels on RTR product carry residues from their last manufacturing processes, and now it's on the rails...

 

1 hour ago, LNERandBR said:

...you're only a small club and struggle to get willing layout operators. 

And those who are willing may well want to 'drive'. That's the last thing we want as 'driving' typically means entering the platform at scale for 50mph and halting in three carriage lengths. I was very hopeful when DCC took off in the UK that operators would allow DCC's realistic inertia simulation do the job. But all too many of those willing to operate want to 'drive'. Happily, I have seen a few exceptions. (I recall a stunningly good one at the final CMRA show in Snorbens; somewhere in mittel Europa, and all the trains moved so smoothly, gliding to a halt if required, creeping into motion when starting, lovely.)

[LNERandBR]

26 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

And if there is a conflict between 'looking good' and operation quality, the latter flies out of the window.

 

Completely the opposite in my experience, the 'make it work' brigade out number the 'make it look good' team. Therefore, once the track is all down, wired, tested and ballasted many start loosing interest. Moving the layout and setting up/knocking down becomes a pain in the bum because the only part many are worried about is the trackwork and ensuring that doesn't get damaged. They don't care too much about the signals and buildings which are far more delicate.

 

29 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

And those who are willing may well want to 'drive'. That's the last thing we want as 'driving' typically means entering the platform at scale for 50mph and halting in three carriage lengths. I was very hopeful when DCC took off in the UK that operators would allow DCC's realistic inertia simulation do the job. But all too many of those willing to operate want to 'drive'. Happily, I have seen a few exceptions.

  

All of my locos have realistic acceleration and deceleration values. Many times there's an outcry of 'It doesn't want to stop', my reply, tell it to stop sooner and drive it properly then  

To be fair, after half a days operation many get the hang of the inertia on different locomotives. 

 

I think there's also going to be many people who leave the inertia settings well alone. The term 'programming' fills many with feelings of fear and dread. Therefore there will be many that will pop a decoder in and do nothing more then change the address.

 

However, it's perfectly possible to drive a train properly with realistic acceleration and deceleration with analogue control. It's therefore equally possible to do so with a decoder with no built in inertia settings. You just need to drive it carefully and pay attention to what your doing. Admittedly, a difficult art at an Exhibition when there's a lot going on.

[ikcdab]

Quite obviously dcc versus analogue is a complete red herring. I have seen some awful running on dcc layouts and my own analogue layout runs well, I call it the "no nudge" layout but i only get this through clean track and wheels.

I should also say that the vast majority of exhibition running is very good and I value the time that the unpaid volunteers put in to stage the events.  Having been to many exhibitions, I think poor running is a minor issue

[Chris M]

I think the main problem with layouts at exhibitions is operaters who have never run the layout prior to the exhibition.  I think using inexperienced operators is very bad practice and should be avoided if at all possible.

There are other factors. A layout has to be packed up, travel maybe hundreds of miles in the back of a car or van and then moved from vehicle to exhibition floor often on a trolley over rough ground. This can't be good for a layout.

Next the layout will often suffer huge changes in temperature and humidity between set up on Friday night and Saturday afternoon. This does cause issues with running. The timber will move with these atmospheric changes and even minute movements can cause bad running. My N gauge layout has suffered from this but not to the extent that the viewing public would notice.

I agree with previous posts about track cleaning. I always start an exhibition day with clean track but by 4:00 in the same afternoon I will often be seeing evidence of track needing another clean.

Distance from a train you are operating and the high level of background noise at an exhibition also don't help smooth stopping and starting but experienced operators should be able to cope with this.

 

[Chris M]

41 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

 Having been to many exhibitions, I think poor running is a minor issue

Agreed but layouts running a "Sunday service" are far too common.

[ikcdab]

27 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Agreed but layouts running a "Sunday service" are far too common.

100% agree. I think a good principle is that there should always be something running on their layout somewhere....

[skipepsi]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I don't really think analogue is so much of an issue, but your second point is very valid.

Some modellers are very talented at making layouts look good but for them, electrickery is just that. They accept that sort of working is about as good as it gets. (In reality, sort of working is as good as they can get).

Others are good at the electrical side of things, but may not be so good with adding detail.

There are also some good at both.

 

You would hope that in a club, you have a mixture of both, so you get more layouts which work well & look good.

The fact that this isn't always true illustrates that many don't really understand a lot of electrical concepts.

The OP does mention 'loco programming' .

[LBRJ]

7 hours ago, skipepsi said:

Lots of them are analogue and may have operators who prefer making to driving?

 

One could wonder why they take their works out to be publicly exhibited then....

 

Operation is what models of railways are for - other wise they are just a scene, a diorama.

Preferably that operation should also bear at least some semblance to reality - Its not much good having everything perfect to look at and then operating it like a seven year old at a birthday party.

 

[Penlan]

1 hour ago, skipepsi said:

The OP does mention 'loco programming' .

Indeed the OP does, I'm a stuck in the mud analogue user, but my (very old) 'Scalespeed' controllers have a knob that allows you to rotate it to deliver a gradual increase/decrease in speed, so move the control knob to the desired final speed (from experience) and the engine gains speed slowly, or of course you can just ease the control knob along to gain the speed required (when the Scalespeed knob is set at zero gain or whatever it's called).  It's not rocket science (pun intended), just needs some empathy, and take some personal pleasure in the loco/train/consist slowly gaining or losing speed.   
Of course it might be my age now, I'm tending to be slower on the uptake of things these days anyway, much like my driving, especially in my 1934 Austin 7's . 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Penlan

[Dungrange]

On 07/02/2020 at 13:26, JST said:

I look on in awe of some of the modelling skills of the exhibitors  and then sometimes wonder about some of the superb layouts which seem to me to be spoiled by erratic running locos/trains. Some of them take off like a rocket, stop dead on a sixpence from about 80mph and jerk about all over the place. I have never exhibited a layout so maybe there are factors I don't understand about moveable layouts but why, if I can mess about with loco programming to get smooth starts and stops, cannot these top line modellers?

 

Well, I think there are a whole host of reasons and I can only speak as a member of a club who exhibits at model railway exhibitions, primarily in Scotland.  Firstly, all of our layouts are DC analogue controlled and although the club own the layout, which has usually been built as a team effort (with some contributing more than others) our club does not own any stock.  All of the stock that runs on each of our club layouts is owned by various members who lend their stock to the club for the duration of the exhibition.  I think it's fair to say that often Member X's stock is more reliable than Member Y's stock.

 

Most of our layouts require three or four people to operate simultaneously, so allowing for operators to be relieved, we'll usually need six or eight operators at a show.  Some of those operators are competent, but others are less so.  The odd member seems to think that a controller only has two positions - stationary and speeding down the layout at a scale 125 mph - and they sometimes don't take too kindly to being told that their 'driving style' isn't realistic.  However, if there is a shortage of volunteers for a particular show, then we simply have to accept one of our less competent operators as part of the team.

 

Driving style aside, there is also the fact that many operators, including myself, are unfamiliar with some of the locomotives that we operate at an exhibition.  I may therefore start off driving Member X's locomotive, which being kit built with an old motor needs the controller to be turned up quite a bit to get it moving.  I then switch to driving Member Y's new locomotive which has a very responsive modern motor that requires much less power and it's very easy to take off a bit too fast.  Being a diesel era modeller who primarily operates steam era layouts, I could say that a lot of little black tank engines look the same. 

 

There is then the issue of inexperienced operators who say "it isn't working", as they turn the controller up to maximum only to realise that they haven't set the section switch to the controller that they are using or turn on power to the isolated section, which they invariably do with the controller still set to maximum.  The locomotive is then brought to an abrupt halt when they run into a new section or up to as set of points that they forgot to throw.  We all make mistakes, but some seem to make them more frequently than others.

 

Then there are all the little gremlins that come from temperature variations that has caused a rail gap to close up and cause an intermittent short along with dirt from continuous running and if you put all of these things together it's difficult to ensure perfect running all of the time.  We usually try our best but invariably a locomotive that's been performing faultlessly for a couple of hours seems to suddenly derail whenever someone comes along with a video camera!!!

[LNERandBR]

Poor running isn't a DCC vs Analogue thing in my opinion. You can get poor running on both and you can get excellent running on both. I also believe everyone is entitled to use their prefered method of operating their layout.

 

It comes down to well laid track, well maintained stock with clean track and wheels to achieve good running. The most important thing before a show is to clean every wheel that's going to turn on the layout. 

However, you can still get derailments and often a train that has worked fine for hours and hours will randomly decide to jump off. Usually when you turn your back!

 

I completely agree that layout operators should be trained prior to shows. However, one friend of mine who knows exactly how to run my layout still takes about an hour or so at the beginning of a show to remember how it all works. During that period he often tells me that he can't do it only for me to remind him that he's helped operate it flawlessly at countless previous shows

 

With clubs it often comes down to who is available to help and you often end up having to take people who aren't as good as operating the layout as others. However, it's still far easier to have those extra pairs of hands available rather than go without them. Your more capable operators remain fresher and more relaxed as a result of not needing to rush around as much. Therefore operations still work better overall.

 

Even if you do tend to send the same person on the tea runs and put them on Fiddle Yard duties.  

 

  

[MarcD]

From my experience the major issue is dirty wheels and track. Not having operators is a second issue. My micro layout can be operated by one person but the amount of grot that is built up in 1/2 days operation is unbelievable. I have 3 locos for it and they will all need cleaning by lunch time. The track is the same.  DCC does have some advantages but it does attract grot more than DC. 

I find that to keep things running I have to stop everything for 5 minutes and clean the track. I have a spare set of stock on standby. But again if I'm cleaning I can't be running. This is where a second operator comes in handy.

Marc

[LBRJ]

So it appears that there is possibly a consensus forming that the archetypal club exhibition layout could all too often be a horse designed by committee?

[DavidB-AU]

9 hours ago, great central said:

Yes there can be issues connected with the wiring or whatever of a layout, biggest thing is most likely dirty wheels, it's surprising how quickly they can get coated in crud when in constant use. 

How many times does the average home operator use their layout for say, 7 or 8 hours each day solid, as this is what exhibition layouts are doing.?

 

Spot on. Keeping the rails and wheels clean has always been a key part of our exhibition running. An individual loco rarely runs for more than hour without getting its wheels cleaned. usually at least a few seconds on a Trix wheel cleaning brush and a proper clean with IPA every few hours. We had 2 track cleaning trains made up of the 3 Aztec cleaning cars which would run around the main lines every hour or so (didn't matter what else was running, the 3 heavy brass bodies would be hauled around by a pair of SD60s) plus spot cleaning with a Peco track rubber and IPA on cotton cloth if anything so much as hesitated. Occasionally a Kato track cleaning/vacuum car would do the rounds. The track cleaning trains didn't look even remotely prototypical but they worked.

 

Cheers

David

[298]

You get a different viewpoint and perspective from a small screen than what you'd see right in front of you, so incidences of non-scale performance will be more apparent. 

 

Bit I'd agree that reliability has to be built in from the start, too many layouts still rely on dodgy wiring and contacts and Lima locos with one wobbly wire from the trailing bogie to the motor.

[JST]

Thanks to all for replying to this post. I have never operated an exhibition layout so this has given me a new insight to the associated issues.

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, LBRJ said:

So it appears that there is possibly a consensus forming that the archetypal club exhibition layout could all too often be a horse designed by committee?

Very true.

Bigger layouts tend to suffer more because you really need several people to build it, & this presents several problems.

Smaller layouts can be the work of 1 person, or sometimes 2 who have a very clear idea of what they want to do (& have spent lots of time discussing it in a pub). This is why they often make better exhibition layouts.

[Curlew]

11 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

 

 

Even if you do tend to send the same person on the tea runs and put them on Fiddle Yard duties.  

 

  

Depending on the layout of course, but I find fiddle yard duties are often grossly undervalued. A good fiddle yard operator can often make a huge difference to the smooth running of a layout. The fiddle yard is often the 'choking point' on many layouts so it must be well organised and well run.