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08221

Can anyone identify this type of point motor please

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Hi, I have four of these point motors on my layout to operate the fiddle yard points.

 

One is not working, does anyone have any idea of their make, etc.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

IMG_20200116_193742.jpg.457d647764e14b43d86d43834bce212d.jpg

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I'm 99% sure they are Fulgerex, Lemaco are very similar but not quite the same.

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Agree.

 

i used both on a layout in the early ‘90s, and it is hard to tell the apart now that I’ve forgotten the tiny details.

 

Very good indeed, if a bit noisy by modern standards.

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Lemarco have a  slightly smaller footprint, and have the motor at one end.

 

I have some if you need a replacement.

 

Dave

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Fulgurex, I've got loads on my layout. There's some little U shaped contacts which can fall out and make the motor not work.

 

It may just be dirty contacts, clean them with 1000 grade wet and dry paper or a contact file. Short across the closed contact with a screwdriver and it'll probably work.

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On 09/02/2020 at 12:26, 08221 said:

Hi, I have four of these point motors on my layout to operate the fiddle yard points.

 

One is not working, does anyone have any idea of their make, etc.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

IMG_20200116_193742.jpg.457d647764e14b43d86d43834bce212d.jpg

 They're Fulgurex. Ugh, horrid things. I've got five of them on my H0m layout and the frog switch on one of them is very reluctant to make which caused me endless grief on Sunday at the French Railways Society bash. You're supposed to be able to use just one of the auxiliary switches as a frog switch but I found that if these didn't switch properly (which they often didn't) I ended up with a short circuit as the frog was mis-switched. I ended up using both auxiliaries as simple make/break switches so that at least if one of them didn't make I might get a circuit through blade contact.   I should have the instructions sheet somewhere and if so will PM you a scan.

 

I think the real problem with mine is the torque tube operating system that Fugurex supplies which means that you're trying to transfer linear motion via a rotational arm moving in an arc, This loses so much force that they can barely drive my Tillig points (and sound like a dying cow while doing so) With some kind of linear operating mechanism they'd probably work better but the switches do seem rather delicate and are exposed. . 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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30 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

 They're Fulgurex. Ugh, horrid things. I've got five of them on my H0m layout and the frog switch on one of them is very reluctant to make which caused me endless grief on Sunday at the French Railways Society bash. You're supposed to be able to use just one of the auxiliary switches as a frog switch but I found that if these didn't switch properly (which they often didn't) I ended up with a short circuit as the frog was mis-switched. I ended up using both auxiliaries as simple make/break switches so that at least if one of them didn't make I might get a circuit through blade contact.   I should have the instructions sheet somewhere and if so will PM you a scan.

 

I think the real problem with mine is the torque tube operating system that Fugurex supplies which means that you're trying to transfer linear motion via a rotational arm moving in an arc, This loses so much force that they can barely drive my Tillig points (and sound like a dying cow while doing so) With some kind of linear operating mechanism they'd probably work better but the switches do seem rather delicate and are exposed. . 

 

 

 

Those snap acting contacts do look pretty horrible. Perhaps you could replace them with microswitches?

 

I was trying to understand how they work. Am I right in thinking the worm drives a worm wheel which has a threaded center to drive that long screw?

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3 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Those snap acting contacts do look pretty horrible. Perhaps you could replace them with microswitches?

 

I was trying to understand how they work. Am I right in thinking the worm drives a worm wheel which has a threaded center to drive that long screw?

Yes, that's exactly how they work. the screwed rod then drives the sliding plastic bar into which the point operating wire is inserted. The bar has stops on it that engage the switches at each end that cuts power to the motor at each end of travel. There must be diodes in there somewhere  as reversing the current starts the motor in the opposite direction so it can be connected with just two wires to a dpdt switch on the panel.

 

The switches in the point machine are actually two way rather than on-off though the end of travel switch isn't wired that way . It is an ingenious mechanism but the design fault is that the auxiliary switches, primarily for frog switching,  are co located  with the end of travel switches. The idea is clearly that, at each end, the motor switch  and the auxiliary switch operate simultaneosly and  a bit of overun mops up any discrepancy. This probably works fine with very lightly loaded points- such as those with hinged blades- but anything stiffer means that the movement stops immediately and if the auxiilary switch hasn't switched by then it never will. There is little scope for altering the relative position of the two switches at each end so setting the point machine up is very delicate.   

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45 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

There must be diodes in there somewhere 

 

I found a diagram. The diodes are on the other side of the base-plate.

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2 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

I found a diagram. The diodes are on the other side of the base-plate.

If you could scan it I'de be  grateful. I've found  got the instructions (very faded) in French and German but not in English.

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4 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

If you could scan it I'de be  grateful. I've found  got the instructions (very faded) in French and German but not in English.

 

I just Googled "fulgurex point motor instructions" and there were all kinds of diagrams and images. Let me know if that doesn't work for you.

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Thanks to both of you. I've got the instructions now and Russ Elliot's page is interesting.

"The lower set of contacts are the limit switches, and cut the supply to the motor when it has finished its traverse. The upper auxiliary set of contacts operate slightly before the lower set." This is what should happen but is exactly where I've had problems a few times when they don't, probably due to the short switch blades of my Tillig H0m points making them very stiff to throw. If I turn the motor on the offending machine a couple of turns by hand after it's stopped I can hear the auxiliary switch switching.

The split potential idea is also interesing as you could, in principle, have just one wire between the panel and each set of points with a single 0 volt  common return.

There was an article in MRJ a few years ago about a switch mechanism that incorporated a Fulgurex point motor but with a linear connection to the tie bar.

Has anyone noticed any difference between the Fulgurex and the Lemaco machines?   I have  a few of the latter still in their boxes and though the layout is different they appear to be assembled from the same components.

Edited by Pacific231G

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It's important, I found, to let the Fulgurex have its full throw, otherwise there is a danger the auxiliary set might not operate. Z-loop tensioners and step-down linkages (I used 4:1) are essential in my view to translate the full throw of the motor to something more sensible at the TOU actuator.

 

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7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

It's important, I found, to let the Fulgurex have its full throw, otherwise there is a danger the auxiliary set might not operate. Z-loop tensioners and step-down linkages (I used 4:1) are essential in my view to translate the full throw of the motor to something more sensible at the TOU actuator.

 

Thanks Prism

That's the problem with mine, the force required to drive the Tillig points over and that required to switch the end of travel switches (far more than a typical microswitch) is a real struggle for it. I have now fixed the offending point motor by lossening the switches and waggling them round a bit. Had I known I might have changed the ratio by making the surface part of the operating wire shorter than that under the baseboard but that would have risked the point blades not throwing properly. I think the answer is  to use a more sensible operating method than Fulgurex's, torque tube  the other is, in future,  to use Peco H0m points rather than Tillig and live with them being loose heeled.

Edited by Pacific231G

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I have 48 of the Fulgurex motors operating on my layout, 22 of which have been in operation for 30 years, I haven't had that many problems over the years, a handful.
As Miss Prism mentions easing the contacts block a little and moving them slightly may well solve any 'contact' problems, but also check the two screws holding each contacts block are tight.
There are in fact very minor differences in older/newer Fulgerex motors, such as the contact springs have a very slightly different size of the 'holes' that slip over the contact prongs, I've forgotten which way it is, but I think it's the older ones that won't fit over the later ones.
Again as Miss Prism indicates, you do need a reduction in throw twixt the motor and the tie-bar.
Best of luck.

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10 hours ago, Penlan said:

I have 48 of the Fulgurex motors operating on my layout, 22 of which have been in operation for 30 years, I haven't had that many problems over the years, a handful.
As Miss Prism mentions easing the contacts block a little and moving them slightly may well solve any 'contact' problems, but also check the two screws holding each contacts block are tight.
There are in fact very minor differences in older/newer Fulgerex motors, such as the contact springs have a very slightly different size of the 'holes' that slip over the contact prongs, I've forgotten which way it is, but I think it's the older ones that won't fit over the later ones.
Again as Miss Prism indicates, you do need a reduction in throw twixt the motor and the tie-bar.
Best of luck.

Did you set them up as per Fulgurex's instructions (torque tube with brass wire) or use some other setup?

 

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One advantage of these machines is that the auxiliary microswitches can be stacked so that extra switch functions can be included, something I've done whilst re wiring Wibdenshaw to DCC , they control part of Pudsey Junction and I have added microswitches to control the rest of the route so one button controls the turnout and switched diamond.

I would say they are robust and reliable, as the above ones have survived many years of intensive home and exhibition use.

 

Mike.

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12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Did you set them up as per Fulgurex's instructions (torque tube with brass wire) or use some other setup?

 

No, I have various methods but basically based on a sliding piece of Copper clad in some Swish curtain rail.
The idea is long in the tooth, and I just can't find the article to illustrate it, but some time ago it was for two thin wires to go up through the baseboard, one connected to each blade - I'm sure the TOU's are available from one of the supplliers, but Google images wasn't delivering.
I've stepped back to something more agricultural :rolleyes:.
The back of the Swish rail has a textured surface and I've used surplus ali angle araldited to the back to provide the fixing.  One of the legs on the Swish rail has been cut off, probably the right hand one in the photo.  It all works for me and thus I'm happy.
The photo's hopefully explain.
Fulgurex Point motors are plentiful, if a member of a Club etc., especially from Probate leftovers. 
A sad thing but that's were the last 30+ I've had came from, of which around 26 were servicable, the others provided spare springs etc.,  As 'Enterprisingwestern' indicates, the switches can be stacked too, I have a couple like that, they are for a couple of Barry Slips, changing other related points and switching the sections related to their configuration.
(That was a long and tiresome exercise to make sure everything worked, eventually).
 

 

 

POU ~3.jpg

Linkage #14.jpg

Swish.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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I fitted a load on my (now retired) exhibition layout. I used to spend a fabulous amount of time before each exhibition getting them to work reliably. In the end I ripped them all out, sold them and replaced them with Tortoises. A decision I never regretted, as I never touched those motors for the rest of the exhibition life (39 shows).

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Swings and roundabouts, what works for some, doesn't for others.....
... and I will leave it at that.
However, I will admit it's a damn sight easier to fit Tortoise than fiddle around with various linkages etc., but PENLAN (the layout) continued on from ILAM using the Fulgurex motors, and time was not of the essence in constructing the layouts, some of the Fulgurex motors are 40 years old and still working.   
From my own experience in helping on other layouts, especially at exhibitions, I'm aware that not all Tortoise motors are faultless.

Edited by Penlan

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