Bachmann 4BEP

[Oldddudders]

46 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.A Rails e-mail says that these are due in shortly.

 

Then we can see if it has a small yellow panel, or not (but they are still ridiculously over-priced).

Is your avatar taken in the Wimbledon bay at West Croydon? 50 years ago the SM there was a Mr Van Duren. The staff called him Van Durex, because they felt he tended to make a f*** of things. 

[Class 158 productions]

1 hour ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

A Rails e-mail says that these are due in shortly.

 

Then we can see if it has a small yellow panel, or not (but they are still ridiculously over-priced).

 

.

Looking at the TMC sales, the CEP was reduced by almost half. I can see these going the same way 

[phil gollin]

16 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is your avatar taken in the Wimbledon bay at West Croydon? 50 years ago the SM there was a Mr Van Duren. The staff called him Van Durex, because they felt he tended to make a f*** of things. 

.

 

No. I'm afraid that it is a shot of Platform 9 (?) at Wimbledon.  The unit is so incredibly shiny as it is claimed that it was taken on the first day of 2-EPB service ???

 

.

[woodenhead]

17 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is your avatar taken in the Wimbledon bay at West Croydon? 50 years ago the SM there was a Mr Van Duren. The staff called him Van Durex, because they felt he tended to make a f*** of things. 

Could have been worse, he could have been nicknamed Mr VD

[SRman]

I decided that rather than spend up big on a BEP, I have ordered a pair of brass BEP sides from Mousa Models to convert one of my CEP units. Looking at the CEPs, I suddenly realised that the only real problem will be to match colours. I can re-use the CEP windows in the brass sides, complete with their lovely silver frames, if I remove the etched window vents. It may involve a little resizing of the window openings too, but I won't fnd that out until the sides arrive.

I'd like to do a green one, but the Bachmann green is difficult to match exactly, so a blue/grey one may be a better bet.

[letterspider]

Really frustrating to wait years for an excellent EMU model and then we may see fewer being made because of wild price fluctuations injuring manufacturer and buyers alike.

 £500 without sound 

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, letterspider said:

Really frustrating to wait years for an excellent EMU model and then we may see fewer being made because of wild price fluctuations injuring manufacturer and buyers alike.

 £500 without sound 

Or DCC fitted for that matter.... I don't normally comment or moan about prices as I am aware that the models we want don't come cheap, but in this case I think Bachmann have got the price a bit too high.... Will I buy one? Possibly. My current British outline layout can't take an 8 coach train, the most likely reason for buying one, but I may have a layout in the future that will. So possibly, in Blue and Grey, but once the price drops a little bit, if there are any left. 

[John Tomlinson]

21 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is your avatar taken in the Wimbledon bay at West Croydon? 50 years ago the SM there was a Mr Van Duren. The staff called him Van Durex, because they felt he tended to make a f*** of things. 

Back in the '90's the company I worked for had a Chairman who was a Peer of the Realm and whose surname started with a D, there was little in his favour other than posh connections. Our Kiwi MD had a typical, no nonsense Antipodean view of stuck-up Poms, and dubbed him Lord fxxxxxg Durex.

 

John.

[acg5324]

21 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is your avatar taken in the Wimbledon bay at West Croydon? 50 years ago the SM there was a Mr Van Duren. The staff called him Van Durex, because they felt he tended to make a f*** of things. 

He was at Brighton when I started there as a relief clerk in 1978..

[letterspider]

3 hours ago, Geep7 said:

Or DCC fitted for that matter.... I don't normally comment or moan about prices as I am aware that the models we want don't come cheap, but in this case I think Bachmann have got the price a bit too high.... Will I buy one? Possibly. My current British outline layout can't take an 8 coach train, the most likely reason for buying one, but I may have a layout in the future that will. So possibly, in Blue and Grey, but once the price drops a little bit, if there are any left. 

 

I have got to support models such as this - otherwise I will never see a Class 304, 316 or 317 etc......

[SRman]

8 hours ago, letterspider said:

 

I have got to support models such as this - otherwise I will never see a Class 304, 316 or 317 etc......

I am conflicted by this too. I want to support models like this, and want to encourage Bachmann to produce more (dare I mention a class 319 in OO?), but when I am facing a price close to $1000 Australian, I really do have to pause, take a deep breath, and ask myself if I can justify that sort of money for my hobby. I think that as far as my hobby goes, I am fairly well off compared to some other modellers I know, and I have a very supportive wife who even urges me to spend some of the money I have on my hobby, but there has to be a cut-off point somewhere. The BEP is very definitely pushing that point, especially when I, as a modeller, may be capable of adapting one of the many CEP units I have for a fraction of that price.

Sorry for rambling on a bit. I know we don't really need another debate on rising prices, but that was my take on things as they stand right now. I'm sure the manufacturers are not making huge markups on their products, and are facing rising costs from their Chinese factories, but we also have to remember they are not charities, they do need to make profits, as well as having some spare resources to put into researching and developing their next models.

 

[Roy Langridge]

I want a BEP and it was a model that I wat seriously considering, but I have decided that I will not purchase it at full price. There is a cost / value factor in my head, and at £500 rrp the BEP has crossed that line by quite some margin. I have numerous EPBs, CEPs, VEPs, MLVs  etc, and a BEP would have complemented those nicely 

 

This model seems to risk becoming a watershed moment for multiple units, probably those exceeding 2 cars. I suspect that few BEPs will sell at the initial price point. How many will then get discounted is probably going to depend upon how many the retailers ordered. If I were a retailer I would have been very nervous about ordering many for fear of being left with stock sitting on shelves, especially if I had already suffered that with much lower priced units.

 

Maybe later when the price normalises...

Roy

 

 

[3rd Rail Exile]

I don't normally comment on prices, but I can understand why some people think this is a bit steep.  However, Bachmann have been heading in this direction for a while, so personally I wasn't greatly surprised.  But like others above I do fear that multiple units (particularly those exceeding 2-cars), may become commercially unviable. 

 

For my own part, I pre-ordered both blue/grey and green examples when they were first announced (without a price).  I was then contacted by my retailer about a month ago when the price was announced - it was a case of "please let us know you still want the models at this price, or we'll automatically cancel the order".  Even at over 4 times what I paid for the blue/grey CEP on release in 2010 (and over 6 times what I paid for the green CEP in 2013!), they are models I really want, and I don't want to mess around (both me  and the retailer) by cancelling and waiting to see if the price drops (and by how much).  

 

I'm looking forward to them arriving in due course, but might have to get a pair of fine cotton gloves to handle them with!  

[Georgeconna]

I remember the ol fella telling me about this:

 

"If you took Economics 101 in high school or college, you learned that selling prices for goods and services are determined by “what the market will bear.” That means that consumers – the market – decide what a product is worth, and will give so much money, but no more, for that product"

 

In this case I wonder is the pricing right out. I decided on a 3 rail SR layout when this stuff started to come out but by god wont be shelving out that for a yoke to go around in Circles. I will stick to what I have at this stage. 

[Class 158 productions]

10 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

I don't normally comment on prices, but I can understand why some people think this is a bit steep.  However, Bachmann have been heading in this direction for a while, so personally I wasn't greatly surprised.  But like others above I do fear that multiple units (particularly those exceeding 2-cars), may become commercially unviable. 

 

 

I dread to think what a new 5-car 221 would cost? Heck, a 6-REP would be astronomical. But, selfishly for me, if this does mean more focus on 2 car units, maybe we can get a new 155? From the photos I’ve seen and the words in the BRM review, these look like impressive models. But I still can’t get over the fact that this is very similar to the CEP tooling, which was reduced to as low as £83 at hattons. Like with the new 150s, which I have indulged in the fit and finish seems great, but I wonder if they would have felt slightly more better value. Had they been fitted with the Plux 22 drive system and couplings or something like the 4-TC. But would changing the tooling more, to allow the low floor mechanism be even more expensive, who knows? 

[adb968008]

Bachmann Added Tax ?

 

Piko announced a lovely PKP EN57 4 car EMU for Poland, due January 2022,

 

https://www.piko-shop.de/en/artikel/e-triebzug-en-57-pkp-iv-33035.html

 

349 Euro..£299 rrp… £200 cheaper than the BEP, and Pikos expert models dont lack for detail, come with all the expected electronics, lighting, DCC, plug couplings, plux 22 decoder etc.. 

Both made in China by companies owning their own factories. 

Both are newly tooled models.

 

of note on pricing..

 

Piko (OEM Germany) £299  (349 Euro rrp) 

Reynaulds (US importer) £280  ($389 USD rrp) 

Gaugemaster (UK importer) £390 rrp 

 

I assume UK modellers are more affluent than Polish modellers, but it does appear the UK market is paying a premium over other countries... so maybe the problem isnt China or Bachmann but something closer to home.

 

Make of it what you will, but the UK price is still £100 less than the BEP even if its £90 higher than Europes.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

If this bombs for sales, then 4-car units will certainly slip down the priorities lists for manufacturers a little. Thus scuppering any hope of the Cor/Buf/Res/Gri units. 

[adb968008]

39 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

If this bombs for sales, then 4-car units will certainly slip down the priorities lists for manufacturers a little. Thus scuppering any hope of the Cor/Buf/Res/Gri units. 

Maybe with Bachmann, but not necessarily with others.

 

The class 85 hardly set the world on fire, but didnt stop Hornby with an 87, 91, APT, Heljan with an 86 or Accurascale with a 92… plus Bachmann followed by with a class 90.

 

i suspect its priced taking into account how many they expect to sell at that price, and if it achieves that quantity, there could well be more EMUs at the same price point…but it does mean there maybe more “have nots”, than “haves”…

 

Wrenn comes to mind… premium and niche for decades. If you want it, no one else is making it, and production runs of it may well be much lower than you think.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by adb968008

[John Tomlinson]

51 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

I remember the ol fella telling me about this:

 

"If you took Economics 101 in high school or college, you learned that selling prices for goods and services are determined by “what the market will bear.” That means that consumers – the market – decide what a product is worth, and will give so much money, but no more, for that product"

 

In this case I wonder is the pricing right out. I decided on a 3 rail SR layout when this stuff started to come out but by god wont be shelving out that for a yoke to go around in Circles. I will stick to what I have at this stage. 

At the end of the day, only time will tell if the model is going to sell in any numbers at this price.

 

We should perhaps remember that part of our shock at the number is based on a comparison with what has gone before, and the fact that on a good day it is still just about possible to pick up a mint CEP for around £100.

 

I would however have thought that unless you have a deep craving, most will pass at the opening offer, to see what discounts emerge, or go the route of SR man and DIY.

 

John.

[Monkersson]

We don't know Bachmann's overheads or profit margins that are resulting in the high rrp for this unit, I do hope it sells well for Bachmann's sake.

 

I think we'll see units coming from the smaller, newer entrants to the hobby, Accurascale and Revolution - the latter are offering OHL units in N (complimenting the Farish 319), and their pricing is keen

 

Im hoping for a 303, 304 and 314 from someone in 4mm at some point!

[Geep7]

29 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

We should perhaps remember that part of our shock at the number is based on a comparison with what has gone before, and the fact that on a good day it is still just about possible to pick up a mint CEP for around £100.

I think that is part of the issue. If this was a brand new model of, say, a 4-Cig (I can but hope Bachmann does one), on the back of the 4-TC, I think I'd jump at getting one. I'm actually surprised they haven't done a 4-Cig tbh, considering how many liveries they could do.

[Steven B]

When a four car EMU costs more than a loco and four coaches you do have to wonder where the money is going...

 

For the price of a 4-BEP (£500 RRP) you could have:

 

DCC Sound fitted class 47 (£270 RRP), three or four Mk1s and some change.

or

Class 419 MLV (£155) and five or six Mk1s. (Closest to EMU I could find)

 

Kernow's 4-TC was £270 when first released. Add on a Class 33 and you've still only at £430

 

(all RRP)

 

I can only assume they're not confident that they'll be making further runs and are so pricing it to cover the risk of manufacture in one run rather the several.

 

Bachmann's pricing in N Gauge has a similar feeling of being over the top - especially on their older models inherited from Poole based Graham Farish. £400 for a four car Class 220 Voyager (originally around £130?), £200 for a two car class 101 and £180 for a two car class 170 which is lacking in much of the detail we now expect.

 

It'll be interesting to see how well these units sell and if they'll be followed by comments from Bachmann's reps at shows saying "EMUs don't sell"....

 

Steven B.

 

 

[3rd Rail Exile]

6 minutes ago, Steven B said:

When a four car EMU costs more than a loco and four coaches you do have to wonder where the money is going...

 

For the price of a 4-BEP (£500 RRP) you could have:

 

DCC Sound fitted class 47 (£270 RRP), three or four Mk1s and some change.

or

Class 419 MLV (£155) and five or six Mk1s. (Closest to EMU I could find)

 

Kernow's 4-TC was £270 when first released. Add on a Class 33 and you've still only at £430

 

(all RRP)...

I can see where you're coming from, but it's a little more complicated than that.  We've been down this road a few times previously, but:

• The "Mk 1 coaches" all need to have lighting
• One of the "Mk 1 coaches" is more akin to a DVT, DBSO or dummy power car, with the headcode and marker lights 
• Through electrical connections are required so that only one decoder is needed for the whole unit.  
• Kernow's 4-TC was released 5 years ago - unfortunately for us, a lot has happened to inflate prices since then.  The CEP was released in 2010 and my first one cost me £104.  So give or take a motor you've very roughly got doubling every 5 years. 

I'm not saying I like it, but I can understand why it's happening and I've decided that I'm willing to pay it.  We each make our own choices...

[Georgeconna]

3 hours ago, Monkersson said:

We don't know Bachmann's overheads or profit margins that are resulting in the high rrp for this unit, I do hope it sells well for Bachmann's sake.

 

I think we'll see units coming from the smaller, newer entrants to the hobby, Accurascale and Revolution - the latter are offering OHL units in N (complimenting the Farish 319), and their pricing is keen

 

Im hoping for a 303, 304 and 314 from someone in 4mm at some point!

 

Well I am sure my wages have not increased the same way as Baccy Offerings. I have a choice to get it or not, If it does come down to Bargain bin lots then I will maybe take a punt otherwise I will enjoy vids of other chaps layouts and those bombing about!

 

[Gwiwer]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

If this bombs for sales, then 4-car units will certainly slip down the priorities lists for manufacturers a little. Thus scuppering any hope of the Cor/Buf/Res/Gri units. 

Whilst I agree in principle don't write off the "Nelsons" just yet.  

 

To borrow a phrase "Perchance it is not dead but sleepeth".