RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, 3rd Rail Exile said: I can see where you're coming from, but it's a little more complicated than that. We've been down this road a few times previously, but: The "Mk 1 coaches" all need to have lighting One of the "Mk 1 coaches" is more akin to a DVT, DBSO or dummy power car, with the headcode and marker lights Through electrical connections are required so that only one decoder is needed for the whole unit. Kernow's 4-TC was released 5 years ago - unfortunately for us, a lot has happened to inflate prices since then. The CEP was released in 2010 and my first one cost me £104. So give or take a motor you've very roughly got doubling every 5 years. I'm not saying I like it, but I can understand why it's happening and I've decided that I'm willing to pay it. We each make our own choices... 1. Only if you want lighting. The jury still seems to be out on that. Unless you're going to run after dark when you can barely see the trains then the benefit of internal lighting is at best minimal in my opinion; 2. Still fundamentally a Mk1 though I agree Bachmann would have had to tool from scratch rather than adapt and graft a cab + brake onto an exiting jig; 3. Agreed although if we don't have internal lighting - see point 1 - then perhaps those who prefer can choose to have a non-DCC option without any internal wiring and plain bar couplers. And maybe somewhat cheaper; 4. Kernow's 4TC is also an unpowered unit meaning around £100 for a power unit is not required. You would need to add that value back in to compare directly with the Cep / Bep units. I had a pre-order for the green Bep. I chose to stick with it as the price leapt towards fantasy. The late-notice change from syp / banded green to plain early green placed it out of keeping with my other green units and I therefore cancelled. But largely based on price because I am unwilling to pay the greater part of £500 for a unit not matching what I hoped for nor wanted. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2021 There were comments earlier about the change from a Green SYP 4-BEP as originally advertised, to the plain green version with original headcodes as delivered. One this is certain as far as I am concerned is that the higher the price gets, the less likely I am going to be willing to accept something not quite what I want (even if I can get want I want by doing some modelling). Instead the model will have to be exactly what I want or I will simply shrug my shoulders and move on. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venator Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 I wanted the 4BEP in blue and grey but I am definitely having second thoughts, £425 is alot of money and 2021 has already been an expensive year. I suspect they won't fly off the shelves at that price, regardless of whether the price is 'fair' or not. That said I have just spent approx £200 for the Rails D Class so I suppose its not as outrageous as it might first seem. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 I can't understand why Bachmann didn't just make the coach - the do it all the time when they make new coaches and they don't come out costing £100 each Yes you czn say they want to sell the other 3 coaches too - but that is assuming we are happy at £500. I have cancelled my pre order, it was one price rise too many just to get that one Buffet car. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted July 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, 3rd Rail Exile said: I can see where you're coming from, but it's a little more complicated than that. We've been down this road a few times previously, but: The "Mk 1 coaches" all need to have lighting One of the "Mk 1 coaches" is more akin to a DVT, DBSO or dummy power car, with the headcode and marker lights Through electrical connections are required so that only one decoder is needed for the whole unit. Kernow's 4-TC was released 5 years ago - unfortunately for us, a lot has happened to inflate prices since then. The CEP was released in 2010 and my first one cost me £104. So give or take a motor you've very roughly got doubling every 5 years. I'm not saying I like it, but I can understand why it's happening and I've decided that I'm willing to pay it. We each make our own choices... And as discussed before, the two end coaches are identical and therefore "extra" tool costs are near zero. Further, the electrics could also be identical if correctly designed, negating any extra cost there. Bachmann Mk2F DCC coaches are £95 each rrp, for a BEP the complexity is less electrically than for a Mk2F as no decoder socket is needed in each coach, so that offsets the cost of the through power connection. Any which way you look at it, the price seems on the high side. Roy Edited July 5, 2021 by Roy Langridge Typo 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 I am going to take another look at hacking the sides off a CEP 2nd and glueing in the sides of a mk1 buffet. I have both at hand and they only cost me £80 for both... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 8 hours ago, Gwiwer said: Whilst I agree in principle don't write off the "Nelsons" just yet. To borrow a phrase "Perchance it is not dead but sleepeth". I've got to finish my scratchbuilt one first - they'll announce a RTR version the week after it's done..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted July 27, 2021 Author Share Posted July 27, 2021 These have arrived according to the Bachmann Website 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 Hi, Mine arrived today. A Blue Grey one. Couldn't see anything amiss apart from a wheel set come loose on the buffet. Whether that was due to the standard of packaging provided by Kernow or happened earlier its hard to say. I like the gap under the buffet area ventilators. Dummy buckeyes are now separate items for optional glueing onto all buffer beams. The instructions are the newer multicolour ones with no disassembled diagram of the power car with motor bogie part numbers. Instructions are provided for fitting a 11 x 15mm speaker in the power car. Square PCB contacts are provided on the power car PCB under the seating unit. It look like the speaker contacts have to press fit against the PCB once the seat unit is screwed back down. I've now got the power car on my Gaugemaster rolling road for 30mins half speed forward and then 30 half backwards. I will test the Zimo DCC decoder on my decoder tester before fitting it to the power car. My club (Basingstoke) has an open day on Saturday the 4th of September so if Beggarwood Lane is running and I think the covid situation is safe enough a 13 car MLV/CEP/BEP/CEP boat train may be running. Regards Nick 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 Here are some images of the Buffet 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Hang about, that has Commonwealth bogies don't it..? Which presumably means the other non-motor bogies in the set are CW as well... Weren't the previous releases of the CEP the non-CW versions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, frobisher said: Hang about, that has Commonwealth bogies don't it..? Which presumably means the other non-motor bogies in the set are CW as well... Weren't the previous releases of the CEP the non-CW versions? Hi, On my model the other non motor bogies are not Commonwealth. The buffet has Commonwealth bogies - which I hadn't noticed. Regards Nick 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Hi, The model I've received is of a Phase 1 4 BEP 7010. Phase 1 4 BEPs had the bogies on the buffet swapped to Commonwealth starting in 1960 with 7010 and the others mid 1961. Source: Blood and Custard website. Regards Nick 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 hour ago, NIK said: Hi, The model I've received is of a Phase 1 4 BEP 7010. Phase 1 4 BEPs had the bogies on the buffet swapped to Commonwealth starting in 1960 with 7010 and the others mid 1961. Source: Blood and Custard website. Regards Nick At this price! It’s disappointing to see the other trailer coaches bogies (not motor bogies) with the wrong type, certainly on the B+G. They should be the mk4, leaf spring with prominent central damper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, miles73128 said: At this price! It’s disappointing to see the other trailer coaches bogies (not motor bogies) with the wrong type, certainly on the B+G. They should be the mk4, leaf spring with prominent central damper. Erm, isn't that exactly what Nick's has though? However what it does mean is that Bachmann have now tooled up CW bogies for the CEP/BEPs... which means they can take a stab at Phase 2 units (7205 ‑ 7211 in particular without tooling up a new (MK3B) power bogie). Whilst it opens up the opportunities for the refurbished units as well, they need a lot of other new tooling as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 3rd Rail Exile Posted August 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 4, 2021 32 minutes ago, miles73128 said: At this price! It’s disappointing to see the other trailer coaches bogies (not motor bogies) with the wrong type, certainly on the B+G. They should be the mk4, leaf spring with prominent central damper. To add to the comment from @frobisher, on the green model the bogies on both trailer coaches are as shown below - is this what you are referring to as the Mk4 bogie? On the blue/grey model the Trailer Composite also has these bogies, but the Buffet has Commonwealth bogies as shown above by @andyman7. Given the comment above about buffets having their bogies swapped from 1960 surely this is correct? On both the green and blue/grey models the inner (non-motor) bogies on the driving coaches are also of the type shown below. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 30 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said: To add to the comment from @frobisher, on the green model the bogies on both trailer coaches are as shown below - is this what you are referring to as the Mk4 bogie? On the blue/grey model the Trailer Composite also has these bogies, but the Buffet has Commonwealth bogies as shown above by @andyman7. Given the comment above about buffets having their bogies swapped from 1960 surely this is correct? On both the green and blue/grey models the inner (non-motor) bogies on the driving coaches are also of the type shown below. Not quite. These are the original (single bolster, I think) bogies so are correct for early green units. Phase two units {non powered} had commonwealth trailers from new. The original trailer bogies on phase 1 units were rebuilt with an additional damper, blue in the centre (mk4) , I think from the late ‘60s to improve the ride. Hence phase 1 B+G had mk4. And phase 2 commonwealth. It’s a bit simpler on refurbished units, which all had commonwealth-except a small batch that initially ran on mk4s! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 On 05/07/2021 at 20:31, letterspider said: I can't understand why Bachmann didn't just make the coach - the do it all the time when they make new coaches and they don't come out costing £100 each Yes you czn say they want to sell the other 3 coaches too - but that is assuming we are happy at £500. I have cancelled my pre order, it was one price rise too many just to get that one Buffet car. The surprising thing of all, the 3 vehicles it shares with the 4-CEP are exactly the same as the 4-CEP. I was hoping with the re-tool that they would at least use the 4-TC connectors. Helas no. It is exactly the same god awful system as the 4-CEP. I have received mine but have not yet got the entire unit together to take photos despite spending 30 minutes trying to assemble it. Mine cost £370 (VAT removed as going to France) and then 6 euros VAT when it arrived here plus 2 Euros admin charge!! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 Well after 3 days (evenings) of messing around, I finally got the BEP togethor. But no thanks to these couplings which are not as well made as those on the CEP (same model of coupling but deforms far more easily). One coupling had the cheek to stick its finger up at me! So here some photos the BEP itself: And here we have the entire boat train (not actually running as 2 units are DCC sound fitted and the other 2 are plain DC but will be converted at some point when I summon the nerves to open them). Basically MLV, 4-CEP, 4-BEP, 4-CEP : (this last one refuses to sit up the right way here, despite being correct on PC and phone). 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venator Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 Well after quite a few hours of struggle I got the 4BEP assembled and went for a test run. Annoyingly the interior lighting only works in the motor coach, I have assembled it as per the instructions and even tried changing the coach order. Any suggestions? Each iteration of Bachmann DC EMU seems to make the couplings worse and on a 4 coach unit that really is a problem in terms of transfering from the bench to layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 7 hours ago, Venator said: Well after quite a few hours of struggle I got the 4BEP assembled and went for a test run. Annoyingly the interior lighting only works in the motor coach, I have assembled it as per the instructions and even tried changing the coach order. Any suggestions? Each iteration of Bachmann DC EMU seems to make the couplings worse and on a 4 coach unit that really is a problem in terms of transfering from the bench to layout. Rule 1: follow exactly the order they say making sure each coach is positioned the right way around Rule 2: I found squeezing the forks with a pair a pliers helps but its still a ruddy fight Rule 3: make sure the little copper/brass contacts in the NEM pockets are not touching (see my post above yours), unlike the CEP and EPB, these move around a lot, especially just after finally getting the dam thing in Rule 4: When you reach the point of wanting to throw the thing across the room, call it a night, text to your girlfriend you are feeling nervous right now, she'll send you a photo of her feet relaxing in a hammock and you'll feel better.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 18 minutes ago, JSpencer said: Rule 1: follow exactly the order they say making sure each coach is positioned the right way around Rule 2: I found squeezing the forks with a pair a pliers helps but its still a ruddy fight Rule 3: make sure the little copper/brass contacts in the NEM pockets are not touching (see my post above yours), unlike the CEP and EPB, these move around a lot, especially just after finally getting the dam thing in Rule 4: When you reach the point of wanting to throw the thing across the room, call it a night, text to your girlfriend you are feeling nervous right now, she'll send you a photo of her feet relaxing in a hammock and you'll feel better.... I have a 4CEP and followed Rule 1 above. I got the coaches in the right order according to the instructions and put all the lettering moulded on the underframes the same way round. No luck. When I put one of the coaches the wrong way round, the lighting worked. Perhaps they’re not getting worse; perhaps they’re just staying bad. Rule 4. What an interesting life you lead! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venator Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I've been away from home for a few weeks but finally managed to assemble the BEP and get it working. I changed the coupling from the motor coach and using tweezers pulled all the connections as tight as possible. The coupling mechanism is such a poor design, far worse than the 4CEP or even the EPB, it is so difficult to get sufficient pressure on the coupling without bending the vertical pole that links it to the chassis. For a model that cost £425 and for it to be worse than the 4CEP in this regard isn't exactly great. It's also quite stark when coupled to the 2HAP or 2EPB how dim the interior lighting is. So overall I'd say minus the coupling issue it has all that's good about the 4CEP but to be honest unless someone desperately wants the BEP I'd advise picking up a cheaper CEP instead! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 I bought a blue/grey Bep today. I have not compared it with a Cep but the couplings seem the same to me and I had no great difficulty in coupling mine up, apart from knocking off one of the horns in the process, which it then took me some time to rescue from the carpet monster. I was pleased to find the alternative gangway door has the headcode 40 (pre-1978 this was Victoria-Bognor Regis via Dorking) as I often travelled on a Bep as a child on trips with my mother to the seaside at Bognor Regis. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 On 04/08/2021 at 12:11, NIK said: Hi, The model I've received is of a Phase 1 4 BEP 7010. Phase 1 4 BEPs had the bogies on the buffet swapped to Commonwealth starting in 1960 with 7010 and the others mid 1961. Source: Blood and Custard website. Regards Nick Here is a buffet car from a Phase 1 Bep: S69002_Redhill_1979 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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