Bachmann 4BEP

[andyman7]

6 hours ago, RFS said:

The Viessman 5048 might do the trick - at a price!

Apart from the price they still need wiring into the coach - ideally what is wanted is a coupling with metal contacts in the NEM fishtail that make contact with the Bachmann contact strips

[Oldddudders]

The Streatham Junctions have been somewhat modified over the years, and I think renamed at the time of singling, probably under the VARS scheme in early 1981, although I can't recall which is the current nomenclature. North Junction and Junction North come to mind, though. In the classic days of the Mid-Sussex fasts running via Sutton, as has been said there were two running lines leading to a conventional double-junction in the Brighton Fast lines. In Brighton days, long before track-circuiting became the norm, there was an accident at the top of the bank. A light loco had stopped to query the road - I think he had come out of Eardley Sidings - and was standing on the Up Line, across the junction. A down Portsmouth service came steaming hard up the bank and knocked the light engine for six. Hamilton Ellis described it as 'clownish'. 

 

In the electric era no London Bridge fast trains have regularly run via Sutton - the peak hour five-o-clock services or 'fives' from LB always being via East Croydon, but back in Brighton days Sutton was the scene of joining and splitting portions for Portsmouth trains, one from London Bridge, one from Victoria. I do not know if this persisted into Southern Railway days. It must have been quite complicated in the down direction, presumably involving one portion running round and drawing back onto the West Croydon line. Of course there was no 'Wall of Death' line to Wimbledon until 1929. Sutton in steam days would make a smashing model....

[JSpencer]

19 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Although I have both a CEP and a BEP, until I have semi-permanent berthing facilities on a layout they do just tend to sit in a box as coupling them up is such a faff. The Hornby 4VEP is also very fiddly. It's not nearly so much of an issue with 2 car units and the beefier electrical couplings that Bachmann have used on the Class 117, 158 etc are better but none are really ideal for constant use. 

The ideal solution would seem to me engineering an electrically live magnetic coupling pair that simply plugged into the existing electrical NEM socket and then allowed a pair of coaches to be pushed together for both mechanical and electrical contact, and pulled apart to separate. 

 

Bachmann already have the answer in the 4-TC which is relatively very simple to couple up. I fail to understand why the BEP did not use the same system. Especially as they tooled up the entire set rather than using the existing CEP tooling for 3 of the vehicles.

[RFS]

Of course if you're not bothered about running with the lights on then you can use a different coupling altogether. I find the internal lights on the 4CEPs to be very variable and run with them off, especially as I only usually run my layout in daylight. You can still have the powered coach's head code illuminated. For a while I used Roco couplings between the coaches which provided excellent close coupling and were easy to separate if required.

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

 

 

In the electric era no London Bridge fast trains have regularly run via Sutton - the peak hour five-o-clock services or 'fives' from LB always being via East Croydon, but back in Brighton days Sutton was the scene of joining and splitting portions for Portsmouth trains, one from London Bridge, one from Victoria. I do not know if this persisted into Southern Railway days. It must have been quite complicated in the down direction, presumably involving one portion running round and drawing back onto the West Croydon line. Of course there was no 'Wall of Death' line to Wimbledon until 1929. Sutton in steam days would make a smashing model....

I was just thinking exactly this today.

 

Sutton is a pretty local station for me, I had to meander to Epsom via Sutton today and looked at the architecture. Apart of the two lines for Epsom, two curved lines for the downs, I noticed edging stones to the side of Platform 1 at the London end, and they are more recent BR 60’s style too. Today p1 has a retaining wall for the canopy, but the canopy extends over this bank of earth, and it has been extensively built over, but it does look like there used to be a bay platform of maybe 4 coach length extending to just short of the stairs. The stairs themselves are laid out off centre to p1 suggesting they served another platform… was this a Loco stabling bay, or one for the Terrier services ? (i ruled out freight as Sutton had a reasonable sized freight yard and sidings) ? But it looks like something was here. 
East of the station the bridge structures still remain to the sidings on the Beeches side (indeed an old SR cast iron trespass sign still hangs too), recently a huge amount of tree cutting took place here, which uncovered concrete yard lamp posts still standing.

 

Similarly the west end of p1 has space enough for another platform (just a hut built on it), but I didnt see anything to suggest it could be previously used.

On the line from Sutton to Epsom, there is definitely space enough for 4 tracks through Cheam and towards and past Ewell, though everything this side of the station -  it looks promise unfulfilled.

Ive also noticed in recent tree cuttings  some ground level concrete indicator signs uncovered in the split of the junction indicating which lines go where (one side saying Epsom, the other Wimbledon), a similar sign exists at Streatham between the Mitcham and Tooting lines, pointing Wimbledon and Portsmouth)…look out as you pass next time.

 

ive got the Middleton press book on this line but cannot find much relating to a bay platform at Sutton in it.

 

From a modelling perspective the station is a typical  “X” shape of lines, with the station in the centre-X, an over-bridge (for that bus), goods yard, space for unit turnbacks, interesting gradients…

 

if I modelled it I might put a tangent… maybe a 1960-80s twist to it, but using the concept of the “x” of lines with station in the centre of it, plus a bit of its historical context of Goods yard (a nod to Purley today), unit turn back sidings, maybe 4 track from one station exit added , it could be quite interesting layout.. give it a bit more freight, some intercity stopping and a mix of Branch, Commuter and semi-fast unit services, and include unit splitting, and maybe an SR/Other region loco change (just fictionally stretch those cross country loco change boundary's a little)…To do it justice it’d need to be a 20’ frontage of a layout, to accomodate an 8 car Unit.

 

A Bep is growing on me..

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by adb968008

[Pteremy]

There is a 1935 25 inch OS map on the Library of Scotland Website which shows a short bay platform next to what is now platform 1 (and of course detail of the junctions and goods yard)

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103314421

[Oldddudders]

Sadly I do not know the history of Sutton's layout before my own time, but can confirm Cheam had two through roads, which were lifted in the '80s, I suspect. The Mid-Sussex fasts, spoken of in this thread, made full use of them, but after the 1978 WTT recast to pay extra dues to the God of Gatwick they really had little purpose. With the Sutton bypass flyover at the London end it all looks very spacious. 

 

As for Sutton's yard, ISTR being grateful for its existence one morning when the 5.35 freight from Norwood to Waddon Marsh (or was it Wimbledon?) had got as far as West Croydon before somebody announced that Waddon Marsh box wasn't yet open and there was nowhere for it to go.....

 

I don't think there are many traces left of the former LBSC station at Epsom, which had been closed when the Southern opened the current station circa 1930. The station building on the down side was visible in my adult lifetime, but housing opportunities have taken most of it, I think.

 

I was an unofficial guest in Sutton box one evening circa 1970, having got to know one of the signalmen in the course of my Control duties. As I was given a cuppa, I duly put a few (old) pence in the tin marked tea-fund, which was then turned round so it said "Sutton Signalmen's Regrading Fund"!

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, Pteremy said:

There is a 1935 25 inch OS map on the Library of Scotland Website which shows a short bay platform next to what is now platform 1 (and of course detail of the junctions and goods yard)

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103314421

Thanks it clearly does, not sure what that would be used for.

Also the map shows it was 4 track from Sutton thru past Cheam too…

 

i dont understand why Overground terminates at West Croydon like it does, a spin up to Sutton with turnback here, or even Cheam and build the intended centre platforms seems to me like sense.

 

The idea of splitting Epsoms into London Bridge and Victoria today would seem sensible too. They re-introduced Epsom-London Bridge semi fasts only since LBG was rebuilt, but some rushhours have partly become victims of Covid cuts, on both lines from Sutton to LBG, indeed the local MP is petitioning their return currently and quite a lot of local fuss is being created, but Southern say theyve let the drivers go and cant return the old service.

 

There is a huge local history of railways (and model railway) enthusiasts in this vicinity, but sadly it feels like I arrived after the party… no model shop, Lens of Sutton was very close to me but is now a house and a lot of clubs that are becoming very quiet.

 

I still love the idea of a BEP with a buffet / food / bar on a fast run from London to here.., I could imagine that as my daily trip…

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by adb968008

[Pteremy]

Re recent service cuts Southern have said that the December timetable changes will see a return to the full timetable that was in place in May of this year. As I no longer have to commute I don't know precisely what that means. But if this addresses current concerns the cynic in me wonders if the local MP will claim credit.

 

The 'relic' that I came across a couple of years ago is the curved embankment west of Waddon, that is the remains of a  siding to 'Aircraft Factory No 1' - the first of a series of factories that Lloyd George instigated after becoming Prime Minister in WWI. The factory was located north of, and adjacent to, the Croydon Airfield that subsequently became the first London Airport. The embankment forms the eastern edge to a small recreation ground/green space south of the line, visible on Google earth/maps .

 

There is also the kink in the lines at Wallington, which used to accommodate a head shunt between the running lines for shunting the goods yard. The asset plaque on the pedestrian bridge just west of the station still calls it the 'Coal Bridge'.

[andyman7]

I was the Station Manager for Sutton and stations down to Dorking from 1991-93, after the diversion of the through Sussex trains but close enough to the time that a number of my staff could remember them. As already recounted, the main diversion of services came in 1978 with the remaining peak services also being diverted via Gatwick from 1984. At the time I was there, Sutton had one non-stop train per hour to Victoria that used the fast line single lead junction at Streatham; Dorking - Horsham was served by an EPB shuttle, and the Thameslink Mk1 service pattern provides a Guildford stopper via Bookham; the 'Wall of Death' was served by a Victoria - London Bridge via Wimbledon service. I recall that we had simultaneous departures to London Bridge at 0920 from both platform 1 and platform 2 leaving in opposite directions, proof if it were needed of the mysterious tentacles of the south London BR network.

Sutton to Cheam was indeed four tracks originally; this was reduced to passing loops at Cheam only in 1958, with the loops coming out post-1984 - presumably dealt with as part of the VARS changes. VARS included singling of the Epsom Downs and Beckenham via Birkbeck routes as well as the loss of the 'emergency connections' between West Croydon and the fast lines to Victoria via Norbury and the scars of these changes were fairly recent then. Epsom Downs was never a particularly popular station but in my view the BR Property Board overdid it by allowing the entire station site to be redeveloped and forcing any user to walk a good 1/4 mile through an (admittedly posh) housing estate to find the station. There was plenty of land spare that would have at least allowed the line to reach the main road in curtailed form but this was an era when anything that avoided closure was a crumb to grasp, regardless of how degraded the result for the rail user was.  

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by andyman7
Spelling

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

Southern have said that the December timetable changes will see a return to the full timetable that was in place in May of this year

Which was by no means the "full timetable" as offered pre-Covid.  Southern is among operators suffering an ongoing shortage of staff often at very short notice and resulting in random cancellations across the network.  London suburban and Milton Keynes services are among the worst affected.  

 

This "full timetable" does not restore half-hourly London - Sussex coast off-peak trains nor does it restore the full services either side of Brighton among other things.  It also does not restore the Gatwick Express which remains suspended indefinitely with the "flying tomato" 387s in use on some London - Brighton fasts and a few turns along the coast to maintain driver knowledge.  Don't expect Southern trains to return to the Wall of Death nor the Guildford route.  Those may now be permanent withdrawals.

 

GTR seems to have no interest in restoring Sussex Coast - London Bridge (and Bedford) peak-hour trains nor those which ran to East Grinstead.  

 

Still some way short of what the public perceives to be a "full timetable" but hopefully matching supply with demand and available human resources.  

Edited September 29, 2021 by Gwiwer

[DY444]

On 29/09/2021 at 19:09, Gwiwer said:

Which was by no means the "full timetable" as offered pre-Covid.  Southern is among operators suffering an ongoing shortage of staff often at very short notice and resulting in random cancellations across the network.  London suburban and Milton Keynes services are among the worst affected.  

 

This "full timetable" does not restore half-hourly London - Sussex coast off-peak trains nor does it restore the full services either side of Brighton among other things.  It also does not restore the Gatwick Express which remains suspended indefinitely with the "flying tomato" 387s in use on some London - Brighton fasts and a few turns along the coast to maintain driver knowledge.  Don't expect Southern trains to return to the Wall of Death nor the Guildford route.  Those may now be permanent withdrawals.

 

GTR seems to have no interest in restoring Sussex Coast - London Bridge (and Bedford) peak-hour trains nor those which ran to East Grinstead.  

 

Still some way short of what the public perceives to be a "full timetable" but hopefully matching supply with demand and available human resources.  

 

Until a few years ago there was no Thameslink service anti clockwise on the Wimbledon loop in the morning peak so the London Bridge trains provided the whole service.  More recently Thameslink and Southern both ran anti-clockwise in the morning peak and there was a 15 min interval service, however in the Southern case this was part of addressing another issue, namely demand into London Bridge from Tulse Hill (and to an extent Streatham) inwards.  In fact demand on that corridor grew so much that it warranted 6 trains an hour in both peaks.  In the morning this was provided by half hourly services from Beckenham Jn, West Croydon/Selhurst, and the aforementioned trains off the wall of death.  In the evening peak there were only two trains to the loop and the gaps were filled with extra Selhurst/West Croydon services to make up the 6 trains an hour to Tulse Hill. 

 

Resumption of Southern round the loop (certainly in the morning) will hinge on whether the demand from Streatham, Tulse Hill et al picks up to anything like previous levels and whether the operational convenience of avoiding a reversal by running out and back from London Bridge via the loop is still seen as the easiest way of providing those extra trains. 

[brushman47544]

There also used to be a lot of Royal Mail traffic at Sutton using the passageway between Platform 1 (Cheam end) and the RM sorting office next to it. I think all the RM traffic was handled in EMUs, both in the guards vans of passenger trains and at peak times in passenger compartments with seats reversed to try and keep the cushions clean.

[phil-b259]

On 29/09/2021 at 19:09, Gwiwer said:

This "full timetable" does not restore half-hourly London - Sussex coast off-peak trains nor does it restore the full services either side of Brighton among other things.

 

Some of that is down to the Gatwick works. With platform 6 devoid of track and partly demolished, plus platform 5 restricted to non stop services there still isn't enough paths to reinstate a full timetable to the south coast. In fact it could be said that the existence of the pandemic, has, in practical terms, turned out to be pretty useful - trying to deal with the regular volumes of commuters and airline passengers during the works wouldn't have been easy.

 

[brushman47544]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Some of that is down to the Gatwick works. With platform 6 devoid of track and partly demolished, plus platform 5 restricted to non stop services there still isn't enough paths to reinstate a full timetable to the south coast. In fact it could be said that the existence of the pandemic, has, in practical terms, turned out to be pretty useful - trying to deal with the regular volumes of commuters and airline passengers during the works wouldn't have been easy.

 

 

Thinking slightly outside the box no longer seems to have a place in timetable planning. A reasonable solution would have been to divert one or two of the Vic - Bognor/Ports Hbr/Soton services per hour via Sutton and Dorking, taking the path and stopping at the stations of the Dorking/Horsham semi-fasts, thereby maintaining direct services. Changing crews at Horsham would in principle avoid the need for lots of route learning too.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

Thinking slightly outside the box no longer seems to have a place in timetable planning. A reasonable solution would have been to divert one or two of the Vic - Bognor/Ports Hbr/Soton services per hour via Sutton and Dorking, taking the path and stopping at the stations of the Dorking/Horsham semi-fasts, thereby maintaining direct services. Changing crews at Horsham would in principle avoid the need for lots of route learning too.

They could run direct without stopping, as theres oodles of space on both lines from Sutton.

[Gwiwer]

15 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Some of that is down to the Gatwick works.

The suspension of GatEx services is down to the rebuilding of Gatwick Airport station.  It was said (publicly and notably to Brighton Line commuters) that at the time - i.e. pre-Covid - that this would be the only essential reduction in services.

 

There clearly are pathways available for half-hourly services to both east and west coasts as evidenced by the service until around 11.00 and from 14.00.  The East Grinstead service also drops to hourly (and the Uckfield to a woeful alternate-hours) headway between mid-morning and mid-afternoon and is not affected by Gatwick unless there is commonality of traction / crewing which I doubt.  

 

In my opinion what could be done is to permanently suspend the excessive provision of Thameslink services which run lightly loaded most of the time especially south of Croydon.  One Brighton - Bedford and one Brighton - Cambridge per hour should suffice plus one Horsham - Peterborough.  The rest can start from Three Bridges using the depot as a turnback.  That doesn't change the number of trains through Gatwick but does ease the pressure farther south.  Most intermediate stations which would lose some service are not that busy at such times.  

 

That reduces train mileage and therefore costs to meet post-Covid patronage without seriously inconveniencing too many users.  Wivelsfield is served by Eastbourne trains and Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park by the Littlehamptons (which perhaps don't need to make all of those stops based on patronage - Burgess Hill is the only one used to any extent) so a reworking of stopping patterns could take place bearing in mind that it is all one franchise and there is no need for trains to spot everywhere just for Peter to rob Paul on the books.  How many people ever travel between Preston Park and stations along the coast?  Or how many would be seriously inconvenienced by not having the coastals calling at Hassocks for example?   

 

Those trains offer appalling and unattractive trip times which in some cases are slower than the steam services of 100 years ago though admittedly with more stops thrown in.  Worthing used to be within 72 minutes of Victoria for example but now requires almost 90 minutes with some serious waiting for time at stops along the way adding to frustrations and affecting overall line capacity.  

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

Thinking slightly outside the box no longer seems to have a place in timetable planning. A reasonable solution would have been to divert one or two of the Vic - Bognor/Ports Hbr/Soton services per hour via Sutton and Dorking, taking the path and stopping at the stations of the Dorking/Horsham semi-fasts, thereby maintaining direct services. Changing crews at Horsham would in principle avoid the need for lots of route learning too.

 

That would reduce the number of fast service to East Croydon, Redhill and Crawley from Victoria.

 

Although the diversion of services away from the Dorking route is often claimed to be down to the 'god of Gatwick' the growth in traffic from these other destinations was also an important factor in the decision to divert the service via the BML

[Oldddudders]

24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That would reduce the number of fast service to East Croydon, Redhill and Crawley from Victoria.

 

Although the diversion of services away from the Dorking route is often claimed to be down to the 'god of Gatwick' the growth in traffic from these other destinations was also an important factor in the decision to divert the service via the BML

The "Great God of Gatwick" is my invention, although hardly trademarked. But I thought in 'Central78', as it was called, the former Mid-Sussex Portsmouth fasts went via Hove, splitting off a Littlehampton portion at Worthing, so Redhill and Crawley were not a consideration? Howards Way electrification to Southampton was still a decade away then. 

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The "Great God of Gatwick" is my invention, although hardly trademarked. But I thought in 'Central78', as it was called, the former Mid-Sussex Portsmouth fasts went via Hove, splitting off a Littlehampton portion at Worthing, so Redhill and Crawley were not a consideration? Howards Way electrification to Southampton was still a decade away then. 

 

It is true that traffic to and from Gatwick Airport has grown, until Covid intervened, very significantly across the past 30- 40 years or so.  Despite being well connected to the motorway network (the M23 spur ends a short walk from the South Terminal) the airport authority has long been keen for public transport to be the option of choice for all with business there.  

 

The "Former Mid-Sussex fasts" have had a chequered history.  As we know they were for many years routed via Sutton.  They were then diverted to run via Gatwick with the side benefit of also serving the ever-growing town of Crawley.  Then they went via Hove as a portion split from the Littlehampton service at Worthing as Ian says therefore still serving Gatwick but no longer Crawley nor Horsham.  The Mid-Sussex route for a number of years had only an all-stations service.  

 

At some later point, the timing of which eludes me for now but I believe it was to allow for the introduction of Thameslink, the service was reorganised once more so that the Littlehampton trains were stepped up to half-hourly but were combined with the Eastbourne trains rather than the former Mid-Sussex ones; splitting was at Haywards Heath where the poor Sussex coast customers were sidelined for as much as 12 minutes while faster trains ran through and theirs combined or divided in a move which could be accomplished in 2 - 3.  At the same time the (now) Arun Valley service was also given a split - this time at Horsham - and a fast portion was returned but faster than ever.  Previous fasts had served Pulborough and Arundel; now they served Horsham then ran non-stop to Barnham.  All intermediate stations are served only by the "stopping" portion which runs to Bognor Regis and is therefore no better than it has been for many years.  Arundel and Pulborough have been the losers as there are no fast trains in either direction nor are there any direct trains south to points other than Ford, Barnham and Bognor.  The use of Ford as an interchange has been half-heartedly marketed but has largely failed; it's a pretty thankless place to wait (though has commercial premises of interest to some of us next door) and connections all involve use of the dingy and mouldy subway with its original steps.  

 

There remains no direct service between any Arun Valley station and Littlehampton despite pressure locally and suggestion from commuters.  The road between Arundel and Littlehampton is notoriously congested with frequent complaints about delay times at Lyminster level crossing yet try making that short trip by train .....   You have to go via Ford or even Barnham.  There is a bus but only hourly during weekday day times and it too gets held up at Lyminster.  

 

Apart from the east and west coast routes once again having dedicated trains these days that situation still applies today.  No longer are there splits at Worthing or Haywards Heath (with a couple of exceptions largely to maintain staff competencies) but Horsham sees them every half hour each way.  The service is underwhelming and the fast Portsmouth / Southampton portions could surely manage a stop at Arundel without destroying the global timetable.  

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Gwiwer

[brushman47544]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That would reduce the number of fast service to East Croydon, Redhill and Crawley from Victoria.

 

Although the diversion of services away from the Dorking route is often claimed to be down to the 'god of Gatwick' the growth in traffic from these other destinations was also an important factor in the decision to divert the service via the BML

What has a temporary solution for works at Gatwick got to do with diversions away from Dorking? Re-routing Mis-Sussex services via Dorking would leave paths at Gatwick for other South Coast services to run. So what if East Croydon lost one or two fast trains per hour. There are plenty anyway and we’re talking off peak.

[rembrow]

Just flagging up that now might be the best time to get a 4bep. TMC models have the standard dcc ready versions at 50% off Bachmann current full price. They have more than 10 in stock of each. Think there may be similar reductions on dcc versions. I've just ordered the green dcc ready version for £248. 

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, rembrow said:

Just flagging up that now might be the best time to get a 4bep. TMC models have the standard dcc ready versions at 50% off Bachmann current full price. They have more than 10 in stock of each. Think there may be similar reductions on dcc versions. I've just ordered the green dcc ready version for £248. 

 

Getting to the stage of proving the old adage that "markets will out".

 

The BEP buffet car bits as Bachmann spares leave you with little out of £100, add in a "mint" 4-CEP on ebay in green for £100 ish, and you've still got to change the coach and unit numbers on the three from the CEP. A "no brainer" at £300 upwards, much less so now.

 

John.

[RFS]

11 hours ago, rembrow said:

Just flagging up that now might be the best time to get a 4bep. TMC models have the standard dcc ready versions at 50% off Bachmann current full price. They have more than 10 in stock of each. Think there may be similar reductions on dcc versions. I've just ordered the green dcc ready version for £248. 

 

Not strictly relevant to the 4-BEP, but TMC also have blue-grey 2-HAPs at 50% off as well at £134.97. Couldn't find a 2-HAP thread.

 

https://www.themodelcentre.com/31-391

[Gwiwer]

12 hours ago, rembrow said:

Just flagging up that now might be the best time to get a 4bep. TMC models have the standard dcc ready versions at 50% off Bachmann current full price. They have more than 10 in stock of each. Think there may be similar reductions on dcc versions. I've just ordered the green dcc ready version for £248. 

Similar reductions at some other retailers.  Posted in the interests of full and fair play.  They are rumoured to be selling rather slowly at almost £500 apiece.  I'm not surprised if that is correct which is unfortunate and doesn't bode well for future units.