Bachmann 4BEP

[Geep7]

Kernow currently have them priced up at £382.95. 

 

Kernow's 4-TC is £269.95, so if you take that away from their price of the Bep and you get ~£120 (price of a motorised chassis I guess?).

 

So I'm assuming the 4-Bep similar features as the TC set (full directional lights, interior lighting and all wheel pickup using the same style couplings.)

 

Still, makes my £170 4-Cep purchase almost seem a bargain.....

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 (Personally I feel Bachmann are pushing it with this specific subject choice. How difficult would it be to make a decent representation from four of the plentifully available mk1s and drive units or other means already mentioned? Been there, arguing with some distant guy in corporate with a calculator; about allowing some local flexibility in pricing policy, to permit adjustment to market conditions.)

Agreed; wasn't there an interview a year or so back with a Bachmann UK person where they basically stated that Kader expected them to operate at the same profit margin as other parts of the Kader empire? If so that explains their ever upwards pricing spiral.

Edited February 11, 2020 by spamcan61

[NIK]

1 hour ago, Geep7 said:

Kernow currently have them priced up at £382.95. 

 

Kernow's 4-TC is £269.95, so if you take that away from their price of the Bep and you get ~£120 (price of a motorised chassis I guess?).

 

So I'm assuming the 4-Bep similar features as the TC set (full directional lights, interior lighting and all wheel pickup using the same style couplings.)

 

Still, makes my £170 4-Cep purchase almost seem a bargain.....

Hi,

 

The RRP for new 4CEPs is also £449.95. Kernows 4-TCs were manufactured before a series of price rises by Bachmann.

I wouldn't expect any changes to the 4BEP over the 4CEP except maybe to make assembly easier.

The 4CEPs like Bachmann's 2-EPB had interior lighting, directional lights and all wheel pickup.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[RFS]

3 hours ago, NIK said:

The 4CEPs like Bachmann's 2-EPB had interior lighting, directional lights and all wheel pickup.

 

But the 4CEP lighting is poor compared to the 4TC. And although the 2EPBs and 4CEPs have all-wheel pickups, those on the non-powered coaches are for lighting only and not motor/decoder pickup. The 4TC has 4-pole connectors between the coaches so all wheels pickup both for lighting and decoder (if on DCC) and hence no issues at all of flickering lights on the 4TC compared to the earlier models. 

[Legend]

Well it’s like everything else. If you think it’s too dear don’t buy it . It’ll then stay on the shelves until it gets discounted .  Do you really need it so much you are willing for fork out £440 . Isn’t Hornbys 7 car APT about the same . Really it’s about time people started voting with their feet or wallet.  The reason it’s that price is that Bachmann think enough  people will actually pay that price . Pushing the envelope again!

[Roy Langridge]

9 hours ago, Legend said:

Really it’s about time people started voting with their feet or wallet.

 

I am this time. I had planned for one, but it was not essential. Whilst I am not one to normally complain about price, the asking price for the BEP does not, to me, offer sufficient value to now make it a purchase. It is not a case of not having funds (I have a full APT on order), but even at the discounted price, there are other things that will jump ahead in my personal "value" list.

Roy

[Revolution Mike]

12 hours ago, Legend said:

 The reason it’s that price is that Bachmann think enough  people will actually pay that price . Pushing the envelope again!

 

Have you any basis for that statement? The more rational alternative is that it costs what it costs for Bachmann to produce, make a modest profit and to allow retailers to make a modest profit. Bachmann will have made an assessment of how many 4BEPs that they are likely to sell (I suspect far fewer than 4CEPs) and calculated based on the tooling and unit costs accordingly.

 

Show me a set of accounts for Bachmann showing that they are making massive profits? 

[rembrow]

I think the 4 CEP has been a model that has stuck at retailers throughout the releases. I remember getting my first green set on the initial release and picked up a green syp later that was heavily discounted. It took a long time for a second run to be manufactured and they stuck at retailers/Bachmann as well, so much so that remaining stock of some 'a' versions were remanufactured by Bachmann with weathered finish and released as 'b' suffix models. You can tell these as they have the same coach numbers as the 'a' versions. Some of these 'b' weathered versions are still available at retail. So I suspect that Bachmann is anticipating that the BEP and the 'c' variants of the CEP will be slow shifters and have loaded the price. 

[Phatbob]

One clear memory of being a customer in  4BEP buffet car is that it was bl00dy expensive!  So an expensive model seems somewhat prototypical.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Aren't most Bachmann multiple units diesel or electric now around £100 to £125 RRP per coach?.

 

If so why the surprise about the 4 BEP price?.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[royaloak]

Maybe the price is because Bachmann have decided there is only a small market for a BEP so are only producing the minimum number possible and need to get a return on the investment.

 

I for one dont think Bachmann want them sat on shelves being discounted hence the minimum number produced. 

[truffy]

If it was just the 4-BEP, you might have a point. But, seen in context alongside the hike in price of the C class, for example, it's easy to conclude that Bachmann (or Kader) are having a laugh.

Edited February 12, 2020 by truffy

[Legend]

4 hours ago, red death said:

 

Have you any basis for that statement? The more rational alternative is that it costs what it costs for Bachmann to produce, make a modest profit and to allow retailers to make a modest profit. Bachmann will have made an assessment of how many 4BEPs that they are likely to sell (I suspect far fewer than 4CEPs) and calculated based on the tooling and unit costs accordingly.

 

Show me a set of accounts for Bachmann showing that they are making massive profits? 

 

Not easy . I'm sure Bachmann make a very modest profit, If I remember correctly they turned a small profit last year after being in the red . But then they buy the model from Kader who produce it , and it has been previously said at margins comparable to their US and European models , so that's probably where the real profit lies .  So I'm afraid you will never get that level of granularity.   

[Revolution Mike]

11 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Not easy . I'm sure Bachmann make a very modest profit, If I remember correctly they turned a small profit last year after being in the red . But then they buy the model from Kader who produce it , and it has been previously said at margins comparable to their US and European models , so that's probably where the real profit lies .  So I'm afraid you will never get that level of granularity.   

 

"No" would have done. These sorts of wild assertions on price really don't help anyone - at the end of the day, no one is forced to buy any model trains.  Even still you are trying to assert that Kader are making unfair (my description not yours) profits.

 

If Bachmann get the pricing wrong then they (and potentially retailers) are the ones that suffer initially, but ultimately we all suffer if Bachmann decide that they can't produce new models at a price the market can pay. So the alternatives are much reduced range or ???

[Legend]

1 hour ago, red death said:

 

"No" would have done. These sorts of wild assertions on price really don't help anyone - at the end of the day, no one is forced to buy any model trains.  Even still you are trying to assert that Kader are making unfair (my description not yours) profits.

 

If Bachmann get the pricing wrong then they (and potentially retailers) are the ones that suffer initially, but ultimately we all suffer if Bachmann decide that they can't produce new models at a price the market can pay. So the alternatives are much reduced range or ???

Well I gave up sometime ago complaining about Bachmanns prices and said I wouldn’t get drawn in again .  But while you challenge my assertions , how are you so sure that it isn’t a market based but a cost plus price ? 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, red death said:

 

If Bachmann get the pricing wrong then they (and potentially retailers) are the ones that suffer initially, but ultimately we all suffer if Bachmann decide that they can't produce new models at a price the market can pay. So the alternatives are much reduced range or ???

We don’t suffer.

Someone else will make them, if they are popular enough prototypes.

[Guest Half-full]

I really don't get the fuss over the price of the 4-BEP, or any other Bachmann model.  If its not value for money, then don't buy it, model trains aren't life or death.  Yes its annoying when manufacturers bump prices up, or don't make a variant we want.

 

Bachmann are part of a large company, and large companies cost a lot of money to run, from staff to materials to storage facilities and everything in between, and the money to pay for that comes from us, the consumers.  They also have to make a profit to re-invest in the new models, the new technologies etc etc that we demand

 

There is almost always an alternative, a kit or scratchbuild.  Not everyone can do that, but there is no harm in learning a new skill

 

 

[mdvle]

On 11/02/2020 at 18:51, Legend said:

Do you really need it so much you are willing for fork out £440 . Isn’t Hornbys 7 car APT about the same . Really it’s about time people started voting with their feet or wallet.  

 

The 7 car APT lists at £550, with the 5 car APT being close at £395.

 

But 2 points to consider.

 

One, there is a good chance Hornby will sell more APT units than Bachmann will sell 4BEPs.

 

Two, Hornby is losing money and so there is an argument to be made that they aren't pricing their product correctly.

 

Quote

The reason it’s that price is that Bachmann think enough  people will actually pay that price . Pushing the envelope again!

 

Well, anyone who thinks they can bring a 4BEP or anything else out at a better price for the same quality level is more than welcome to try.

Edited February 13, 2020 by mdvle

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, Half-full said:

Bachmann are part of a large company, and large companies cost a lot of money to run, from staff to materials to storage facilities and everything in between, and the money to pay for that comes from us, the consumers.  They also have to make a profit to re-invest in the new models, the new technologies etc etc that we demand

 

Big companies argue they are able to keep costs lower through economy of scale. As for making profit and reinvesting, that is true of pretty much any company. 

 

Roy

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Big companies argue they are able to keep costs lower through economy of scale. As for making profit and reinvesting, that is true of pretty much any company. 

 

Roy

Small companies argue they are able to keep costs lower through lower overheads.

 

Thing is anyone with access to a few hundred £, via mortgage, loan or pension can go on Alibaba’s website, find a manufacturer who will do it all, take out a few ads in amagazine and set up a go daddy website and make anything they want.

 

The barriers to entry of the 1980s are gone.

The more prices are pushed up, the more attractive it becomes for someone to think “i can do that”.

 

if the economy changes, a few individuals could lose their shirt, but the big boys proclaim they are bleeding could fall too.. We consumers wont end up with nothing.. the toolings exist, the IP has been created the knowledge will be in China.. they will rise up and use it.. that is the Chinese strategy to acquire IP from the west in general... one set of well known tooling is being widely touted for a promoter to take on currently.

 

in other words, Natural Selection & Evolution... old toolings never die, they evolve and return another way.

Edited February 13, 2020 by adb968008

[Revolution Mike]

16 hours ago, Legend said:

Well I gave up sometime ago complaining about Bachmanns prices and said I wouldn’t get drawn in again .  But while you challenge my assertions , how are you so sure that it isn’t a market based but a cost plus price ? 

 

Because I see the prices we are quoted and Bachmann's prices are not so far different to ours to make me think that they are piling on massive amounts of profit.  I would expect them to have economies of scale that we don't but they also expect to produce far more per production run than we do (as they are prepared to hold stock).

 

I'm sure that market expectations are part of the pricing strategy but that is no different to anyone else. The first question is always can I produce X at a price that I believe that the market will pay, otherwise the project is dead in the water.

 

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

We don’t suffer.

Someone else will make them, if they are popular enough prototypes.

If Bachmann decide to withdraw from parts of the UK market (not that I believe they will) then customers suffer. 

Where a model is part of a family of models (in this case the 4CEP to 4BEP) I don't think your logic stands true - I don't honestly believe that there will be people queuing up to tool a 4BEP if Bachmann's doesn't work out or is "too expensive".  

[letterspider]

I too would like a restaurant car to make a BEP and it is frustrating Bachmann don't sell it separately. Their pricing makes no sense to me either

 

I would like to have seen Bachmann to sell the coach separately and it makes me wonder why they did not

 

1/ Less packaging and transport costs = cheaper and better for the environment

2/ Higher profit margin = assuming cost £40 to make and sell for £70 to £80 - I would buy that one coach at £80 rather than a rake averaging £100 a coach for 3 coaches I don't want (I use that price comparable to the DBSO Mk2f with DCC lighting) - anyone want to buy a spare coach on eBay?

3/ Sell the motor and trailer separately then those coaches now ending up on eBay can make up 3 CEPs

4/ Do we know if the couplings will be compatible with existing CEP's - or will they change it? 

5/ I don't accept the argument that they have to make and sell the whole rake because we see that Hornby are willing to sell APT coaches individually - c'mon Bachmann sell the restaurant car separately please.

 

 

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

39 minutes ago, letterspider said:

I too would like a restaurant car to make a BEP and it is frustrating Bachmann don't sell it separately. Their pricing makes no sense to me either

 

I would like to have seen Bachmann to sell the coach separately and it makes me wonder why they did not

 

1/ Less packaging and transport costs = cheaper and better for the environment

2/ Higher profit margin = assuming cost £40 to make and sell for £70 to £80 - I would buy that one coach at £80 rather than a rake averaging £100 a coach for 3 coaches I don't want (I use that price comparable to the DBSO Mk2f with DCC lighting) - anyone want to buy a spare coach on eBay?

3/ Sell the motor and trailer separately then those coaches now ending up on eBay can make up 3 CEPs

4/ Do we know if the couplings will be compatible with existing CEP's - or will they change it? 

5/ I don't accept the argument that they have to make and sell the whole rake because we see that Hornby are willing to sell APT coaches individually - c'mon Bachmann sell the restaurant car separately please.

 

 

 

 

Surely the answer to this is that they aren't going to trade £449 of revenue for £78 - £80, along with proportionate profit. A green, mint 4 CEP went for £72 on ebay a couple of days ago, any remotely awake punter would buy one of these and a new coach, saving a packet.

 

Wish they would though!

 

John.

[letterspider]

That assumes they will sell those at £449 - also if they aren't interested in making a piddly £30 per carriage then I expect we won't see any wagons of any sort in the near future.

 

[Oldddudders]

Selling the buffet car separately only makes sense for those prepared to renumber the CEP coaches, which 90%+ of buyers will not want to do. This is RTR, and having the correct coach numbers is part of the deal.