Bachmann 4BEP

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, red death said:

I don't honestly believe that there will be people queuing up to tool a 4BEP if Bachmann's doesn't work out or is "too expensive".  

Doesnt that tell you something about perceived demand ?

[John Tomlinson]

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Selling the buffet car separately only makes sense for those prepared to renumber the CEP coaches, which 90%+ of buyers will not want to do. This is RTR, and having the correct coach numbers is part of the deal.

Thinking about this, you may well be right.

 

What a sad world we inhabit!

 

John.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, letterspider said:

I too would like a restaurant car to make a BEP and it is frustrating Bachmann don't sell it separately. Their pricing makes no sense to me either

 

I would like to have seen Bachmann to sell the coach separately and it makes me wonder why they did not

 

1/ Less packaging and transport costs = cheaper and better for the environment

2/ Higher profit margin

 

If the other coaches tooling is paid for, then the "price" of those 3 coaches in the overall cost of the unit is substantially more profit margin than they could get from a restaurant car alone.

 

Far more likely is that without the profits on those other 3 coaches the tooling costs of the restaurant car can't be justified as too few would sell to cover the costs.

 

[John Tomlinson]

36 minutes ago, letterspider said:

That assumes they will sell those at £449 - also if they aren't interested in making a piddly £30 per carriage then I expect we won't see any wagons of any sort in the near future.

 

Well, that's the RRP, see post 1 on here. Beats selling one carriage only if you can get over 5x the revenue.

 

We all know what will happen here. Unless they really do make a small number, there will be a set of sales at full price, then the rest will be discounted. How big the rest is remains to be seen. If you're prepared to wait and see you may well make a good saving, and that needs to be set against the possibility of missing out.

 

For myself, I'd like one, but will wait and see, my usual tactic on anything that takes my fancy. As others have wisely said, this is only a model train, not something essential to life's continued existence!

 

John.

 

 

[truffy]

49 minutes ago, letterspider said:

if they aren't interested in making a piddly £30 per carriage then I expect we won't see any wagons of any sort in the near future.

 

We will.

 

How many restaurant cars is anyone likely to buy? How many wagons, to make a prototypical train?

[Revolution Mike]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Doesnt that tell you something about perceived demand ?

Yes and no. 

 

Yes and no doubt Bachmann have factored that into their pricing ie sell fewer and the unit cost should rise.

 

No in terms of my point that if I as a manufacturer know that a.n.other manufacturer already has tooling for say 1/2 or 3/4 of a unit then I'm not going to waste my resources on something that the other manufacturer can more easily produce.

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, red death said:

Yes and no. 

 

Yes and no doubt Bachmann have factored that into their pricing ie sell fewer and the unit cost should rise.

 

No in terms of my point that if I as a manufacturer know that a.n.other manufacturer already has tooling for say 1/2 or 3/4 of a unit then I'm not going to waste my resources on something that the other manufacturer can more easily produce.

 

Yes and Yes you mean... Because there is insufficient demand for duplicating it, your just tying to avoid admitting it.

 

plenty of manufacturers have waste my resources on something that the other manufacturer can more easily produce as they believe there is sufficient demand.. indeed most of the last 2 years has been manufacturers producing something where a competitor had a product they could produce easier... the list of duplicate toolings is endless.

 

BEP isnt one of them, I suspect its not just down to cost, but return and demand... Ive not idea how Bachmann spent there money on this, but if it wasnt done as cheaply as possible, it could be waste.. the CEP hasnt changed the world, at 3x more the BEP isnt either. I cant ever see myself owning as many BEPs as I do class 37’s. Neither do I see a BEP as a long term strong seller.. its niche and most buyers will only ever buy one...a lot wont be interested in this at all price or prototype irrespective. if it were me the BEP would be a Ratners job, High margin at lowest cost and grab the pot thats there whilst it exists, then dump the rest later and move on.
 

But if Bachmann disappeared tomorrow the tooling wont be vapourised, as long as it exists, then someone else may make a deal and enter the fray making it... I compare Bachmann to Hornby Dublo in this regard... niche, expensive, cult and unique.. but equally changed hands several times over the decades... nothing “dissapeared”... for example I predict its only a matter of time before DJ J94s come back under a new name. Its fallacy to believe if Bachmann dies all is lost... theres way to much value in big chunks of metal sitting in China for that, in a parent company that is doing very well, and previously in the 1980’s sold to 3 different companies in the UK using the same Bachmann toolings... Mainline, Replica and Dapol, before Bachmann emerged.

 

Theres nothing to fret about, BEP, Bachmann or Bulky metal toolings, if you can afford £450 pay it, if you want to wait.. wait, but theres no need to be “scaring” people into paying for it.

Edited February 13, 2020 by adb968008

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

But if Bachmann disappeared tomorrow the tooling wont be vapourised, as long as it exists, then someone else may make a deal and enter the fray making it... I compare Bachmann to Hornby Dublo in this regard... niche, expensive, cult and unique.. but equally changed hands several times over the decades... nothing “dissapeared”... for example I predict its only a matter of time before DJ J94s come back under a new name. Its fallacy to believe if Bachmann dies all is lost... theres way to much value in big chunks of metal sitting in China for that, in a parent company that is doing very well, and previously in the 1980’s sold to 3 different companies in the UK using the same Bachmann toolings... Mainline, Replica and Dapol, before Bachmann emerged.

 

Theres nothing to fret about, BEP, Bachmann or Bulky metal toolings, if you can afford £450 pay it, if you want to wait.. wait, but theres no need to be “scaring” people into paying for it.

Are you sure about that?

How many other tools 'disappeared' when a company ceased trading?

 

There seems to be a lot of utopian thinking on this thread!

[Gwiwer]

On 12/02/2020 at 13:28, Phatbob said:

One clear memory of being a customer in  4BEP buffet car is that it was bl00dy expensive!  So an expensive model seems somewhat prototypical.

Prices charged were the same as in Big, Rep, Buf, Gri and 6B buffets. Can we expect any of those soon?  At the same price as the Bep?

 

 

[letterspider]

Thanks for the all the advice - I think I will go for 3 second hand rakes instead

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, royaloak said:

Are you sure about that?

How many other tools 'disappeared' when a company ceased trading?

 

There seems to be a lot of utopian thinking on this thread!

Like which ?

Transpenine and 81 went in the Dapol fire, Hornby had a well publicised clear out, and toolings are reportedly bumped or lost in the odd dispute.

 

But in an extinction level, event, toolings might initially “dissapear” but they generally come back...

 

A tooling holds significant value to the posessor, (not implying the owner is the posessor), and those holding them generally are aware of their value being significantly more than scrap, which is why toolings hang around for decades, if not approaching 1/2 centuries in some cases... not too long ago some metal spray masks for some HO Trix UK tooling was on ebay.. and that would be 45+ years since it was last used !

Edited February 14, 2020 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

I need one to finish off my boat train, but so far I have not pre-ordered one. Unfortunately I've seen everything in recent years that I pre-ordered ending up being discounted 6-12 months later (instead of being sold out in a flash like they did in the past) so I might as well wait. For pre-ordering to be interesting, it needs to come with gaurantees like we will definately get one, if it is faulty, it will definately be replaced and so on. 

The BEPs price is more than I spent on the rest of boat train put togethor (2 * CEPs, 1 MLV, 2 sound chips and 1 normal chip). 

I'll buy one yes, but only after the discount fixing weeks/months have passed. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by JSpencer

[No Decorum]

12 hours ago, JSpencer said:

I need one to finish off my boat train, but so far I have not pre-ordered one. Unfortunately I've seen everything in recent years that I pre-ordered ending up being discounted 6-12 months later (instead of being sold out in a flash like they did in the past) so I might as well wait. For pre-ordering to be interesting, it needs to come with gaurantees like we will definately get one, if it is faulty, it will definately be replaced and so on. 

The BEPs price is more than I spent on the rest of boat train put togethor (2 * CEPs, 1 MLV, 2 sound chips and 1 normal chip). 

I'll buy one yes, but only after the discount fixing weeks/months have passed. 

I’d imagine that your view is shared by a good many of us. On the one hand, we might say, “It’s no good complaining; it costs what it costs.” On the other, most of us have limited budgets. It’s no longer a matter of buying what we fancy; it’s a matter of selecting what we most want out of what’s on offer.

 

Spectacular discounting is becoming more and more common. It makes sense to put a little aside for when a model which is no more than just fancied is discounted. However, where does this leave the manufacturers? Producing ever fewer examples of particular models and raising the price of each to compensate? The point has already been made that there are now so many companies competing and so many different models being produced that something has to give. I’m not predicting the end of the hobby – just that whichever manufacturer guesses the market wrong is likely to go to the wall.

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, No Decorum said:

 

Spectacular discounting is becoming more and more common.

I wish...

 

Its actually far less common than it was a year ago.

my experience has been more shops are not holding stock after initial release, but are more willing to supply to order.

 

That translates into higher retail margin (they don't care if it sells or not as they have no capital tied up, but if it does sell their margin is secure).

 

The risk holder is the manufacturer, if they get their numbers right and it sells out, they too don't care as they have max revenues, no capital tied up and no warehousing costs, if it doesnt sell..they are surrounded by boxes they are paying to store and less money to spend on the next one... but thats not the retailers problem.

 

Theres no incentive for retailers to stock up, so no need to crash discount, indeed Manufacturers prefer you dont.

But in a marketplace full of models, it will take strong boots to carry lots of stock to warehouse out a glut of models at a price the market may struggle to afford.

 

Retailers were squealing for years about how the race to the bottom is killing them, that noise has gone very quiet recently*, indeed they probably haven't had it so good for some time, loads of variety, limited competition, restricted discount and low minimum orders. If a manufacturer choses to discount.. the retailers still make margin... its a lot more comfy than it was a few years ago, in the days of stack em high, sell em cheap, buy it now the manufacturers sold out.

 

*retailers will never admit to it being rosy, ever, but how hard it is can be measured by volume of noise created...Right now theres no noise at all.

 

 

As a consumer however, I have become immune to manufacturers claims of “almost sold out” or “low stocks at the warehouse” on a new release, following several high priced examples of models still on shelves years later.. just as much as I dont trust a manufacturer to turn on the taps for a second run of an expectedly popular  release. The discounting might of stopped, but the stock is still there... instead I Listen to the jungle drums of modellers... 20 pages on a thread in a week.. suggests its hot... 3 pages in 3 years suggests its not... regardless what marketing efforts of retailers or manufacturers claim... ive pre-ordered Rocket, I havent the BEP, at some point I will own both.. But, I equally wouldn't be surprised if we find both Rockets and BEPs still on shelves next year.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by adb968008

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Retailers were squealing for years about how the race to the bottom is killing them, that noise has gone very quiet recently

 

Well, at least for Bachmann said retailers no longer need to compete with a certain large retailer, which presumably has helped to increase sales volumes.

[JSpencer]

On 16/02/2020 at 11:34, No Decorum said:

 On the other, most of us have limited budgets. It’s no longer a matter of buying what we fancy; it’s a matter of selecting what we most want out of what’s on offer.

 

 

This is indeed a very good point. If "all" that was coming out in a year was just a 4-BEP then I would probably pre-order and not worry about possibly being able to get it cheaper later. But it is one of about 20 loco like (self propelling) items I'm expecting over the next 2 years plus a couple of sets of birdcages plus Hattons 4-wheelers. The bulk of it operating in the south east with only a handful of non SE odd balls.

 

[No Decorum]

On 16/02/2020 at 20:29, adb968008 said:

I wish...

 

Its actually far less common than it was a year ago.

my experience has been more shops are not holding stock after initial release, but are more willing to supply to order.

 

That translates into higher retail margin (they don't care if it sells or not as they have no capital tied up, but if it does sell their margin is secure).

 

The risk holder is the manufacturer, if they get their numbers right and it sells out, they too don't care as they have max revenues, no capital tied up and no warehousing costs, if it doesnt sell..they are surrounded by boxes they are paying to store and less money to spend on the next one... but thats not the retailers problem.

 

Theres no incentive for retailers to stock up, so no need to crash discount, indeed Manufacturers prefer you dont.

But in a marketplace full of models, it will take strong boots to carry lots of stock to warehouse out a glut of models at a price the market may struggle to afford.

 

Retailers were squealing for years about how the race to the bottom is killing them, that noise has gone very quiet recently*, indeed they probably haven't had it so good for some time, loads of variety, limited competition, restricted discount and low minimum orders. If a manufacturer choses to discount.. the retailers still make margin... its a lot more comfy than it was a few years ago, in the days of stack em high, sell em cheap, buy it now the manufacturers sold out.

 

*retailers will never admit to it being rosy, ever, but how hard it is can be measured by volume of noise created...Right now theres no noise at all.

 

 

As a consumer however, I have become immune to manufacturers claims of “almost sold out” or “low stocks at the warehouse” on a new release, following several high priced examples of models still on shelves years later.. just as much as I dont trust a manufacturer to turn on the taps for a second run of an expectedly popular  release. The discounting might of stopped, but the stock is still there... instead I Listen to the jungle drums of modellers... 20 pages on a thread in a week.. suggests its hot... 3 pages in 3 years suggests its not... regardless what marketing efforts of retailers or manufacturers claim... ive pre-ordered Rocket, I havent the BEP, at some point I will own both.. But, I equally wouldn't be surprised if we find both Rockets and BEPs still on shelves next year.

 

Perhaps you focus on specific items which are objects of your desire and are out of luck with them. I recall the line of the new Hornby management: “No more deep discounting – it devalues the brand.” After a resigned sigh, I found Rails offering a Lord Nelson with over 40% off. Not much good, of course, if that is not what you seek.

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Perhaps you focus on specific items which are objects of your desire and are out of luck with them. I recall the line of the new Hornby management: “No more deep discounting – it devalues the brand.” After a resigned sigh, I found Rails offering a Lord Nelson with over 40% off. Not much good, of course, if that is not what you seek.

Orders placed before the deep discounting rule were excepted, iirc.

I too benefitted a cheap LN, but that was then.. this is now.

 

Personally I think the manufacturer assuming the financial risk, whilst supporting and rewarding the retailer is a high risk strategy, when the resulting higher margins has made it more attractive for low cost start ups to enter the market, and start supplying retailers too... especially as interest on many “run of the mill” new releases starts to wane within weeks of release..., amongst a sea of exciting new tools all at the higher end price points.

Edited February 17, 2020 by adb968008

[Legend]

On 16/02/2020 at 22:40, mdvle said:

 

Well, at least for Bachmann said retailers no longer need to compete with a certain large retailer, which presumably has helped to increase sales volumes.

You don’t think that volume simply switched to Rails or Kernow? If you were savvy enough to know of Hattons  you certainly know about them . 

[mdvle]

16 minutes ago, Legend said:

You don’t think that volume simply switched to Rails or Kernow? If you were savvy enough to know of Hattons  you certainly know about them . 

 

Some/most certainly did, but some will have fallen back to a local physical store.  The big discounts at first release had already ended, so a lot of customers were likely still using Hattons out of familiarity.  Forced to look for an alternative, a local store for those that still have them would have been attractive for at least some with the price differential gone or minimized.

[Right Away]

On 16/02/2020 at 10:34, No Decorum said:

On the other, most of us have limited budgets. It’s no longer a matter of buying what we fancy; it’s a matter of selecting what we most want out of what’s on offer.

 

Quite so, and when what happens to be on offer turns out to be a 4 car "Nelson", quite feasibly produced by Hornby, that's where all my pennies would go; perhaps with restaurant, buffet and griddle options to follow at "sensible" pricing. 

[74009]

On 11/02/2020 at 10:04, Gwiwer said:

 

The Bep interests me as a Southern Electric enthusiast even though I don't currently have space to run 4-car units realistically.  The 2Hap also interests me and two of those would make a typical train although they frequently ran singly and in multiples of up to five in a train (six 2-car units was not permitted) but I fear the price will mean I may have to live without both.  

 

 

 

I'm very interested in this comment about six 2-car units not being permitted.   When I first started commuting in 1980, my daily train was the 06:56 Margate - Cannon Street via Chatham.  This train was a 12 car formation of 6 x 2-HAPs every day, with the first class in each of the rear three units declassified. It was reduced to 10 cars in the May 1981 timetable change.  I've not heard of that particular restriction before - what was its purpose?

 

Thanks

 

Stuart

[phil gollin]

.

 

From comments on the Southern Railway board it would seem that there were places on the third rail system where the distance between substations was such that restrictions of numbers/types of units were imposed.

 

Each unit was given and the total for the whole formation was to be below the specified number.

 

( These restrictions came back to bite Network Rail when it was discovered very late in  the day that the new Crossrail services would severely overload parts of the system, meaning that Crossrail had a vast increase on costs and a severe delay. )

 

. 

[Oldddudders]

Is the 12-HAP issue related to length? More cab-ends and fewer intermediate couplings add feet? 

[NIK]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Is the 12-HAP issue related to length? More cab-ends and fewer intermediate couplings add feet? 

Hi,

 

I think twelve 64 foot nominal length BR(SR) EMU coaches were too long for the Cannon Street platforms.

 

I think some or all (2 /4?) EPBs had the couplings between inner ends modified to shorten the overall length of the formed 12 car train.

 

Take care.

 

Nick