Bachmann 4BEP

[Oldddudders]

EPBs never ran as booked 12-car trains. 10 cars on the SE side, 8 cars on the Chatham side. 

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is the 12-HAP issue related to length? More cab-ends and fewer intermediate couplings add feet? 

 

A combination of the number of intermediate couplers and the slight additional length over all those 12 cabs.  12-car trains formed of suburban stock have never been a regular feature of SR operations.  They were permitted if formed of any combination other than 6x2-car units.  As I understand it (from a former senior employee) the restriction applied because a 12-car train with the added inches and intermediate couplers might exceed signal overlaps and platform clearances.  Remember suburban units had three-link couplers within the units and the hydraulic buffer to keep them apart rather than a screw-link or buckeye with rubbing plate.  Main line 4-car units have always been able to run in 12-car formations (subject to any other route restriction) because they don't have all those cabs.  

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, NIK said:

I think twelve 64 foot nominal length BR(SR) EMU coaches were too long for the Cannon Street platforms.

Some platforms.  Just as they are still for some platforms at Charing Cross.  Main line trains have been formed of up to 12 coaches since the Kent Coast electrification and 12-coach "Hastings" DEMU formations where all coaches were on long underframes (6L / 6B types) also fitted those platforms.  The 6S short-frame units were not built in connection with platform length but because the underframes were already in-build for cancelled hauled stock.  When the order was changed to diesel units the first batch arrived on short frames matching the usual length of hauled stock on that route; to quote "the 6S units seem to have owed their distinctive length to a combination of urgency, expediency and tradition.*" 

 

*  "The Hastings Diesels Story" (G. Beecroft / Southern Electric Group 1986)

Edited May 4, 2020 by Gwiwer

[phil gollin]

.

 

I thought that the limit down to Dover was 3 x 4-car units PLUS 2 x MLVs ?????

 

.

[74009]

Some very interesting responses.  As Olddudders said, back in the early 80s suburban trains on the South Eastern Division (almost entirely in the hands of EPBs) were a maximum length of 10 cars because that was the platform length at most of the suburban stations.  This actually included London Bridge, so 12 car main line trains heading to Charing X or Cannon Street didn't call there, a situation which persisted until the platforms were lengthened as part of the Networker project in the early 90s.  In fact, I can clearly remember being on 12 car main line trains heading for Cannon Street in the morning peak inching along the platforms at London Bridge with the driver desperate not to have to stop at the red signal at the end of the platform, with the rear 2 cars hanging off at the other end.  I also remember occasional incidents of foolhardy commuters leaping out of the moving train if they judged that the speed was slow enough.

 

At Cannon Street there were 8 platforms in those days (reduced to 7 at the Networker project); platforms 1-4 could accommodate 10 cars and platforms 5-8 could accommodate 12 cars. The station was often referred to as having main line and suburban sides, although main line trains only appeared in the peaks.  Most of these were 12CEP (with the odd BEP) or 12VEP, plus of course the Hastings DEMUs.

 

Although used on both, 2HAPs were very much 'Main Line' units rather than suburban and a pair of them would often deputise for a 4CEP as part of a formation.  Personally I don't think a 12HAP formation would be appreciably longer than a 12CEP - the cab ends coupled up pretty close - and electrically would be equivalent.

 

All I can say though is that I am 100% certain that the 0656 Margate - Cannon St. via Chatham was 12HAP every day for about the first year I caught it, reducing to 10 cars in the May 81 timetable change.  Thinking about it, I often used to travel up in the rearmost 1st class compartment (declassified) and to do this I had to walk to the very, very end of the platform at Sittingbourne where I got on.  At 12 cars the train did just fit in the platform without hanging past the ramp; evidently it fitted in at Cannon Street too.  The train was withdrawn altogether in, I think, 1983 when there was quite a big recast of the whole timetable; it was around that time that the HAPs disappeared from the South Eastern Division, seemingly overnight.

 

I also found this reference to 12 car HAP workings on 'Blood and Custard'

 

 

Sorry to drag this conversation off topic.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

 

[74009]

Incidentally, I should say - I'm new around here.  Been a member for some years but have never posted.

 

I've done a fair bit of model making over the years, including several Southern (and other) region EMUs ranging from good old MTK kits up to a Blacksmith 4SUB which I've nearly finished. Just finishing off a No Nonsense Kits Bulleid 2EPB too.

 

Best regards

 

Stuart

[D6975]

1 hour ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

I thought that the limit down to Dover was 3 x 4-car units PLUS 2 x MLVs ?????

 

.

But they ran from Victoria, not Charing Cross.

[Gwiwer]

22 minutes ago, D6975 said:

But they ran from Victoria, not Charing Cross.

From Victoria where they could only use platforms 2 or 8, and only to Dover Marine (Western Docks) or Folkestone Harbour without intermediate stops.  They were also restricted to one of three authorised boat train routes (known as BTR 1,2 and 3) which had proven integrity for the slightly higher than usual current draw and signalling permitting regular operation of 14-car trains.  The Conductor Rail Index (CRI) would allow 16 coaches and while that should have been reliable everywhere sustained full power might have caused a line breaker to trip out.  Load 14 on the boat trains was well within tolerance on the BTRs.  

[robertcwp]

Note the 12 Hap formation here in the July 1967 workings.

[tetsudofan]

28 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Note the 12 Hap formation here in the July 1967 workings.

 

Slighlty OTT but things didn't change much those days. Back in 1974 I used to catch the 17:18 from Cannon Street from Platform 4 getting off at Lee. The bosses' secretary used the 17:16 from Platform 5 and we quite often sat in adjacent seats with her waving goodbye as her train departed.

 

There was no need to stand around on the concourse waiting for the train to be announced, you walked straight onto the platform knowing that the train would always be there.

 

Keith

[robertcwp]

Here is the 1980 line-up for the morning peak arrivals at Cannon Street, with two 12 Hap formations and no 4 Bep units:

 

 

[74009]

22 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Here is the 1980 line-up for the morning peak arrivals at Cannon Street, with two 12 Hap formations and no 4 Bep units:

 

 

 

Thank you for that Robert - actually includes the 06.56 from Margate via Chatham, which was the train I talked about in the first place.  There were no booked BEPs to Cannon Street that I'm aware of but one would sometimes substitute for a CEP, particularly after buffet services were withdrawn on the South Eastern Division and there were still some BEPs hanging around.  The 06.38 from Dover Priory, also via Chatham, was usually a good bet for this and often seemed to produce 7002, one of the 1956 prototypes.

 

Although it was never advertised, the 18.12 Cannon Street to Ramsgate via Chatham always had a BEP in the early 80s with the buffet car open for business.  I understand that the stock worked a boat train into Victoria, then empty to Cannon Street via Blackfriars sidings (as was the norm in those days) and then down to Ramsgate.  The Buffet car steward was apparently booked to travel with the train and they used to say that it was well worthwhile keeping the buffet open for the 18.12 as it always did a roaring trade.  This continued for a while even after buffet services had been officially withdrawn from all South Eastern services except boat trains.

 

Stuart

Edited May 7, 2020 by 74009

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, 74009 said:

 

Thank you for that Robert - actually includes the 06.56 from Margate via Chatham, which was the train I talked about in the first place.  There were no booked BEPs to Cannon Street that I'm aware of but one would sometimes substitute for a CEP, particularly after buffet services were withdrawn on the South Eastern Division and there were still some BEPs hanging around.  The 06.38 from Dover Priory, also via Chatham, was usually a good bet for this and often seemed to produce 7002, one of the 1956 prototypes.

 

Although it was never advertised, the 18.12 Cannon Street to Ramsgate via Chatham always had a BEP in the early 80s with the buffet car open for business.  I understand that the stock worked a boat train into Victoria, then empty to Cannon Street via Blackfriars sidings (as was the norm in those days) and then down to Ramsgate.  The Buffet car steward was apparently booked to travel with the train and they used to say that it was well worthwhile keeping the buffet open for the 18.12 as it always did a roaring trade.  This continued for a while even after buffet services had been officially withdrawn from all South Eastern services except boat trains.

 

Stuart

The Bep in the 18.12 was in the 1980 carriage workings: 

 

[Paul.Uni]

The 4BEP is due in May 2021 according to the Bachmann website.

[NIK]

1 hour ago, Paul.Uni said:

The 4BEP is due in May 2021 according to the Bachmann website.

Hi,

 

That gives me longer to save up for one.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, Paul.Uni said:

The 4BEP is due in May 2021 according to the Bachmann website.

Almost another year.  This really has been an uncommonly long time for a unit which really only needs a buffet car developed.  As we have noted before the three others are the same as the existing 4-Cep units.  

 

I could guess that they will feature 4TC / class 117 - style intermediate couplers rather than the original power-bar and revised internal lighting which is already developed for the 4TC and fundamentally very similar.  

 

What else is taking the time?  I'm not in a hurry but another year might be another £50 or more on the already hefty price tag.  

[frobisher]

2 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

What else is taking the time?

 

The whole thing will be waiting on a manufacturing slot as well.  It's not just one coach at that stage but a full four car unit.  In very rough terms, if one coach type unit takes a slot of X days to go through the process, then you need 4 slots for X days, or 1 slot for 4 x X days or somewhere between.  It could very well be waiting upon a suitable sized hole in the production schedule to allow it to be manufactured.

[Gwiwer]

4 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

The whole thing will be waiting on a manufacturing slot as well.  It's not just one coach at that stage but a full four car unit.  In very rough terms, if one coach type unit takes a slot of X days to go through the process, then you need 4 slots for X days, or 1 slot for 4 x X days or somewhere between.  It could very well be waiting upon a suitable sized hole in the production schedule to allow it to be manufactured.

I agree with the fundamentals of that but they have managed to re-run the 4-Cep at least once while we have been awaiting the 4-Bep.  Three coaches are the same; just order more from the factory.  OK I know it isn't quite that simple either but I do wonder what the underlying cause of the wait has been.  

[frobisher]

1 minute ago, Gwiwer said:

I agree with the fundamentals of that but they have managed to re-run the 4-Cep at least once while we have been awaiting the 4-Bep.  Three coaches are the same; just order more from the factory.  OK I know it isn't quite that simple either but I do wonder what the underlying cause of the wait has been.  

 

Those would have been using the production slots allocated to the CEPs, enlarging the run of 75% of it would cause the allocated slot to over run, plus you'd have to warehouse the excess stock waiting for the BEP production and even then this goes against the grain of "just in time" manufacturing. 

[Paul.Uni]

Images are on the Bachmann website:

• 31-490 https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/class-410-4-bep-4-car-emu-7005-br-(sr)-green/31-490
• 31-491 https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/class-410-4-bep-4-car-emu-7010-br-blue-and-grey/31-491

[Philou]

The price is hefty - but it does look good.

[3rd Rail Exile]

2 hours ago, Philou said:

The price is hefty - but it does look good.

They're certainly not cheap, even with the permitted level of discount (especially if you're buying one of each to run in multiple with the two 4-CEPs you already have). 

 

But we've known for a while what Bachmann's prices have been doing (particularly of multiple units), and we've had over 4 years since the initial announcement to save up!  

 

Still looking forward to them - as you say, they look good!  

 

If I'm really lucky, their arrival will coincide with two sets of EFE 1938 Tube stock, for maximum credit card damage points!

Edited February 6, 2021 by 3rd Rail Exile

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Paul.Uni said:

Images are on the Bachmann website:

• 31-490 https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/class-410-4-bep-4-car-emu-7005-br-(sr)-green/31-490

I love the choice of prototype shot from Colour Rail, taken on the Mid-Sussex line, since it clearly shows 7001, one of the two early prototype Beps - with painted window frames, which to my mind change the appearance enormously from the production versions modelled by Bachmann. 7001/2, and Ceps 7101-4, kept painted frames into the brief-but-dreadful matt all-blue period. 

[Mike Storey]

Yes, I agree. But the Blue-Grey version does look extremely enticing. Even at a discount though, it is very expensive, compared to that which we paid only a few years ago for 4 CEPs. I guess I will only be buying one, as a result, instead of the three I had originally envisaged, until they appear at a much reduced price anyway.

[Gwiwer]

51 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I love the choice of prototype shot from Colour Rail, taken on the Mid-Sussex line, since it clearly shows 7001, one of the two early prototype Beps - with painted window frames, which to my mind change the appearance enormously from the production versions modelled by Bachmann. 7001/2, and Ceps 7101-4, kept painted frames into the brief-but-dreadful matt all-blue period. 

Those prototypes were the best.  From wooden panels inside to the subtly different buffet-car layout in 7001/2 they had more style than the melamine-coated production ones.  I'll still end up with a Bachmann 4-Bep even with no justification for it on the layout.  There is no justification for the Hornby 5-Bel either but that resides here and appears very occasionally.  In some as-yet unknown future life I hope to once again have enough space to run full-length trains and enjoy a Cep-Bep-Cep formation or maybe 12Cep + MLV snaking around the layout I have yet to conceive of let alone build! 

 

Of note the Colour-Rail image referred to is of a syp prototype unit with the smaller headcode numerals red buffet car and yellow first class stripes.  The Bachmann release is of a plain green production-series unit (with matching early large headcode numerals) and no red stripe.  No yellow first class band either.  The images of the actual model are what you get.  Unless the Bachmann images and description are incorrect certain retailers are showing the wrong details based upon either earlier information or the Colour-Rail image.  Those who want a matching 12-car rake beware.  

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Gwiwer