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Salt mine exchange idea - Looking for comments!


metijg
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I was thinking about building a small layout, mainly as a test bench to learn how to do a few things (pour water, scratch build etc) in both 009 and fine scale. The plan is below and I'd love to to have the RMWeb input!

 

The inspiration is a small salt mine I visited recently which had a small footprint outside but was massive inside. It was also build around a river as I'm trying to depict. 

 

Working from top right, the narrow gauge would emerge from the mine entrance and cross the river on a wooden bridge. The trucks would have access to an open drop to tip spoil, which would probably only be scenic as the point would be difficult to motorise on the bridge. The track then loops round in front of low relief mine working building, which have arched access for trucks to be reverse shunted into. The full trucks could be shunted in, back to the fiddle yard and empties would come back out. These connection back to the fiddle yard is through a continuous cover of the buildings that would also span the river. 

 

At the bottom the narrow gauge would go to a wharf next to the standard gauge and ideally the wagons would actually tip, but this may be out of my skill level! It would then cross the road as the end of a siding and then through the scenic break through some cover. 

 

The standard gauge would have a run around loop for movement and a few sidings in the fiddle yard 

 

The low-relief building at the back provide depth, and hide the river from obviously starting from a backscene, while the scenic break on the right side is ensured by the road bridge.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

Track plan 1.3.jpg

Edited by metijg
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Its a nice concept but it looks like the standard gauge  run round loop is very short and the angle from the upper point to adjacent rail looks excessively sharp. I don't think it can be made to work,    Several sections of flexi track look to be bent very sharply.   Normally I would suggest set track for such a tight location but I guess you want code 75.

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7 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

  Normally I would suggest set track for such a tight location but I guess you want code 75.

 

It's true, code 75 is just an indulgence to try something new. I actually took the bullhead dimensions, with the big points, so this could be compromised. I'll have a look later. 

 

Thanks for your input

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I like the concept a lot.

 

Are we in Austria?

 

If you use a Tracksetta template, getting tight, but neat, curves isn’t too difficult, and not inappropriate for a location such as this.

 

I think I might try to angle the back-scene at the right a bit more, to slightly increase the scenic:not-scenic ratio.

 

And, does the NG go over the SG in the FY, or under it as shown? I’m assuming over, otherwise The gradient from the tipping dock downwards will be like a roller-coaster.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Is the standard gauge track going to be a bit hidden by the landscape? It seems to be in the bottom of the quarry, if I'm reading the plan correctly?

 

You could shuffle things around a bit to have the standard gauge at the front of the scene, on the lowest ground where it could be a bit straighter and the run round longer. Then higher ground, possibly augmented by rough trestles carrying the narrow gauge and the tipping station.

Then higher ground still where the narrow gauge starts to run on ledges, bridges and in tunnels. Then the highest ground at the back with buildings for extra height.

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43 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Are we in Austria?

 

Close!!

 

Switzerland - the Bex salt mines about 30 minutes from Lausanne, however it's total artistic license; the real world is much more interesting, there is a very narrow gauge tram that runs into the mine, then a meter gauge railway that runs to the mainline station, which serves as a terminus (Aigle) for 2 other meter gauge lines, one of which has a cogwheel. It would be pretty spectacular to model in some compressed form.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I think I might try to angle the back-scene at the right a bit more, to slightly increase the scenic:not-scenic ratio.

 

And, does the NG go over the SG in the FY, or under it as shown? I’m assuming over, otherwise The gradient from the tipping dock downwards will be like a roller-coaster.

 

 

 

Agreed on this, I was already thinking of having the front section scenic and going the full length of the board. I'll post an updated version later. Yes, the NG does go over the SG and stay high all the way round, that was a mistake.

 

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You are indeed fortunate to have such scenery and such interesting railways on your doorstep.

 

i have explored some of the railways in that area, notably the MOB, where colleagues from the Secheron company took me to the workshops, substations etc, but there is so much of interest within a few miles that I have not seen all the lines.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Is the standard gauge track going to be a bit hidden by the landscape? It seems to be in the bottom of the quarry, if I'm reading the plan correctly?

 

 

Yes the SG is lower than the NG and i agree it's not perfect, the lowest ground in the middle it doesn't work visually and is quite hard to explain. I was thinking the SG level would be an old river bed, possibly with a small brook parallel to the track going to the river, while the NG would be built up until it arrives back to the road level.

 

Moving the SG to the bottom does feel right, but presumable it needs more width? Something i was trying to avoid.

 

The rough trestles i like a lot, it would be very fun to model and could be included regardless of the solution

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1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

You are indeed fortunate to have such scenery and such interesting railways on your doorstep.

 

i have explored some of the railways in that area, notably the MOB, where colleagues from the Secheron company took me to the workshops, substations etc, but there is so much of interest within a few miles that I have not seen all the lines.

 

 

I know!

 

My fantasy local model would be Cossonay, just outside of Lausanne, It's a mainline station with local industry (a mill), sidings etc., then interesting topography with a funicular which if you stretch the artistic license could be made to link to the meter gauge MBC line which is on the high level.

 

If you had unlimited resources then you'd also add in a fore-shorted Morges station which has a very interesting siding where SG trucks are put onto NG bogies to travel on the MBC line. The whole combination would tick a lot of cool boxes..

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

You could put the SG on a decking over the river (water still flowing below) and the NG on a spidery trestle, so that it doesn’t totally block the view.

 

 

 

That's a great picture, as you say there is a lot of scope for hills! They also had a lot of interesting structures which were used to evaporate the separation water which i think is the building at the top of the picture. However, i was hoping to avoid that and focus on dry rock salt production which would require more generic mechanical separation technology. I need to do some research into all of this though, maybe another visit next week.

Edited by metijg
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44 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

It occurs to me that if the tippers worked they should tip towards the viewer so he can see the operation more clearly.

 

Very agreed! However, I'm struggling to see a way to re-align everything without increasing board width?

 

The working tipping makes me nervous, other than the famous 'End of the line', which is incredibly elegant, I've not seen any solutions that look easy. It will be fun to try though.

 

p.s. Ticks are a problem in Switzerland. Little gits, they deserve to be in cool boxes!

 

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So three possible ideas based on the discussion (thanks BTW..). I also moved up to the smaller radius NG points with no adverse impact on the board size.

 

Idea 1 - The SG is moved to the bottom so that there is a single gradient flow from high at the back to low at the front. It gets complicated at the end of the bridge where the NG is at the same level as the road level, while the SG goes under. Also there needs to be a clever way of hiding the entrance of the NG to the scenic break. Dummy engine shed?

While this fixes a lot of problems it is not a good use of the space in the middle. Not totally convinced

 

Idea 2 - Same principle as before but the NG crosses the gap between the left hand curve and the bridge on a trestle bridge to not break the view too much. Again a clever way of entering the scenic divide is needed. There is also possibility of using some of the space at the front for scenic stuff. 

Still maintains the original concept but somewhat fixes the view

 

Idea 3 - The tipping is part of the main mine area and the loop descends to allow the NG to reach the same height as the SG by going up and down the head shut.

Fixes a lot of problems but creates a lot more, the gradients will be complex and can the line be justified at all? 

 

Idea 4 - Built on Idea 3, but loose the loop and just have clearly separated NG at the top and SG at the bottom.

It would be simpler, smaller, but losing the continuous run would be a shame. 

 

Somehow there is no perfect solution..

 

Track plan 2.1.jpg

Track plan 2.2.jpg

Track plan 2.3.jpg

Edited by metijg
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Hi metijg,

 

I like No.2 because of the land form, the stream. and the trestled tipping station. (And the flat NG will make it more reliable.)

 

The plans that push the tipping station headshunt in front of the scenic break and the "fiddle yard" really work well, IMHO, because they expand the scenic area, disguise the fiddle yard best and the headshunt makes sense technically.

 

I think you should definitely have a continuous run in the final design!

 

Maybe you could move the mine entrance and the bridge over the river? And maybe the small stream in #2 could replace the river?

 

What's the thinking with the NG diving into the mine buildings? If that's not a core part of the story-telling then it might be simpler not to do it and that might make other parts of the design work better.

 

Quick sketch idea:

metijg.png.cc820ea7c6214fc384c1454ca1375565.png

 

It sort of works but it gets very complex on the right where all the tracks and the river leave the scene in close proximity! (The grey rectangles would be view blocker buildings.)

 

Edited by Harlequin
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On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 11:24, Harlequin said:

Hi metijg,

 

I like No.2 because of the land form, the stream. and the trestled tipping station. (And the flat NG will make it more reliable.)

 

The plans that push the tipping station headshunt in front of the scenic break and the "fiddle yard" really work well, IMHO, because they expand the scenic area, disguise the fiddle yard best and the headshunt makes sense technically.

 

I think you should definitely have a continuous run in the final design!

 

Maybe you could move the mine entrance and the bridge over the river? And maybe the small stream in #2 could replace the river?

 

 

Yes to all of the above. The change of river location can open up the back space better and the mine entrance could be almost parallel to it. It will also make the loop make sense as it stays on the high ground for as long as possible.

 

Definitely right to discard idea 3 as the gradients would have been impossible and the scene too busy

 

I'm disappointed to lose the railway access to the buildings as this would give a lot of operational interest. Maybe I'm being too naïve about this though and trying to squeeze too much into too small a space?

 

I'll try and find time to draw it up. Thanks!

 

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This has been fermenting at the back of my mind!

 

I realized that the shunting into the buildings was more of my priority than the tipping. Killing the NG to SG tipping removes the need for steep gradient changes and makes the whole thing less complicated. Also, i was following another thread which mentioned Tillig three rail track (NG and SG combined), which would be very, very cool and i'd love to integrate if possible. These shifts came to me at work, hence the quality of drawing has now dropped...

 

In explanation, the top section is the same as before other being at the base height (maybe a touch up..) and trucks from the mine can still be reversed into the buildings. The SG is on the other side of the river, which is necessary to explain why the NG loop is needed, and there is an exchange siding across a low platform. The three rail track could be gratuitously used to provide the run around loop for the SG. The head shut for the NG would go off scene and would then provide an excuse to have a continuous run. 

 

To hide the entrance to the scenic break a bridge of some sort could be used? Although it could be quite small, maybe even a rough footbridge. The siding at the front doesn't really bring much other than scenic quality and could even be modelled as relatively disused. 

 

Finally, if tipping was still required, then it could be from a conveyor from the buildings to the SG. This also gives each gauge an independent mission, NG raw product for processing, SG the finished product which is more satisfying. Also i think the conveyor is harder to model, but maybe more reliable in the long run?

 

Quite excited, hence the quick drawing during a meeting, but ready to have my bubble burst! 

Conveyor.png.2748225869f2bc97c5caa8c08a3b8554.png

Edited by metijg
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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not sure if anyone is following this any more, but just in case i worked out some more detail for the sidings in the middle. I'm pretty reassured the whole thing will still fit in 3m x 0.8m, which is a dimension i will have to negotiate with the other occupants of the house!

 

exchange sidings detail.png

 

exchange sidings measurements.png

Edited by metijg
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