Odd Border Crossings in Europe?

[trisonic]

That story is priceless.......

 

Best, Pete.

[roythebus]

Slightly off-topic, another story from my mate ex Koeln Deutz was about the coal train, berthed in one of the through lines in Duesseldorf Hbf for loco change. Loco unhooks, new Turkish shunter applies handbrake on 2 leading wagons, deposits 40 tonnes of coal between the running rails! The handbrake wheels and the hopper bottom door wheels look rather the same!. He reckons it took 3 days to clear up the mess.

[The Stationmaster]

A Eurostar set was sent to Koln for a DB organised exhibition. In order to help things along the selected traincrew had fairly wide(r than normal) language skills so as to be useful at the exhibition itself.

 

The train arrived at Aachen under its own power with a Eurostar Driver driving with an SNCB Conductor Driver plus Eurostar and SNCB Inspectors also in the cab. After arrival a DB Traction Inspector joined them on the platform to explain what would be happening next and suss out what would be going on coupling wise. The DB Inspector only spoke German and the SNCB Inspector began to translate, albeit in a rather halting fashion, for the benefit of the Eurostar Drver and Inspector. At which point the Eurostar Inspector began talking to the DB Inspector in German while the Eurostar Driver translated what the German Inspector was saying into French for the benefit of the SNCB Driver.

 

That is what international working is all about B)

[roythebus]

Don't mention the war...

[The Stationmaster]

Don't mention the war...

 

 

Strange you should say that. On one occasion I left (at the end of) a particularly bruising meeting with 'the wrong part' of DB muttering rather loudly that Arthur Harris was right.

[Pacific231G]

What the French call a "Saut-Mouton" (from Saute-Mouton meaning the game of leap frog) is fairly widely used to switch between left and right hand running as well as being used for junctions- what we would call a flying or burrowing junction. When France regained Alsace-Lorraine after the first world war the railways there had developed as part of the German system since the 1870 Franco-Prussian war. It was considered too expensive to switch from German right hand to French left hand running so a fair number of these crossovers came into being. At international frontiers they were far less common simply because trains rarely travelled through without stopping for customs, passport checks etc. but nowadays with a lot more through running many more have appeared on borders between left and right running administrations. There is a far more prosaic example on the LT Central Line just west of White City station where, for reasons going back to it being the original terminus, trains run on the right and the Saut-Mouton gets the lines back to normal running on the left.

 

The most curious border I ever encountered (apart from W-E Berlin which was just sad and sinister) was at Brest between Poland and the USSR. At that time (1967) the train of Soviet couchettes we were travelling on from Berlin to Moscow pulled in alongside the fairly magnificent station building and we all got off for customs. passports, currency and ice cream and our train pulled out of the station. About ninety minutes later the train returned but on the other side of the station buildings having had all its bogies changed from 1435 to 1520mm gauge.

 

The border crossing I would like to have seen was where until the early 1960s an electric interurban tram line running down the side of a main road crossed between France and Belgium near Blanc-Misseron. This crossing was in the middle of an urban sprawl with houses all around but there was still a substantial barrier to stop trams from crossing until authorised by the Douainiers- far more solid than the usual pole barrier for road vehicles alongside it.

[trisonic]

Interesting!

Does anyone have photos of such a "Saut - Mouton"?

 

Is it anything like the flyover at Ilford?

 

Best, Pete.

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting!

Does anyone have photos of such a "Saut - Mouton"?

 

Is it anything like the flyover at Ilford?

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

A 'saut-de-mouton' (that's the official spelling) actually translates as 'sheep's leap' although as 231G explained it is the everyday French term for what we call leapfrog.

 

In railway terms it simply, and officially, translates, into English as 'flyover' although the commonest SNCF usage (in my experience) seems to relate to flying junctions. The flyover at Ilford (among others) would indeed be called a saut-de-mouton in French while in Dutch it would amount to something approaching a sentence of 6 words

[steverabone]

I've got some photos of the French border stations on my Fotopic website. You will need to scroll down the pages to find the correct photos

 

Hendaye

My link

 

La Tour de Carol

 

My link

 

Cerbere

 

My link

[Gordonwis]

On the diesel line from Paris to Mulhouse there was a fly over (the last time that I travelled the line) that changed the running from left to right as mentioned above the border parts of France are different to other parts.

 

You must be confusing yourself. The Paris - Mulhouse diesel line (via Belfort) is the only trunk route NOT to have a flyover at the Alsace border. It was removed many years ago to simplify operations

[Gordonwis]

Interesting!

Does anyone have photos of such a "Saut - Mouton"?

 

 

 

lots of pictures if you just 'google image' "saut de mouton"

[Gordonwis]

Another interesting changeover is at Chiasso in southern Switzerland. Northbound trains from the Italian direction (3000V DC) roll into the station with the pans down and come to a halt. A small Swiss electric shunter (15000V AC) collects the Italian engine and pushes it back across the border at the changeover point. Then the Swiss engine comes on..etc.. I haven't observed how it works in the southbound direction. I would imagine that there would be a short length of switchable OHLE.

 

Map here

 

Typical shunter here

 

 

AFAIK - similar 'coasting' arrangements at Domodossola

[Gordonwis]

This latter method is also used at places where voltage/electrification systems change on the LGV lines and on the Channel Tunnel route - the cab signalling systems being reconfigured by the turning of a switch at the same time.[/i]

 

 

This occurs all over France, as SNCF is one of the largest number of electric overhead system borders in the world. I enjoyed the experience a few days ago at Pont de Veyle (near Macon) where Geneva TGVs change from 25kv ac to 1500 dc.

[trisonic]

This is an interesting thread. I'd like to hear more.

 

Best, Pete.

[charliepetty]

A tale told by a friend, a retired DB driver who used to work the cross-border stuff from Bw Koeln Deutz, a goods train arrived at Aachen. DB loco goes off, DB shunter goes on the back of the train to assist it out of the station as described above. DB banker gets the right away, starts shoving, thinking the Belgian isn't doing much. It's only when the train's over the top and the banker drops back that someone realises the Belgian loco was still in the yard at Aachen, and what they had was a rather heavy freight train with no loco.

 

It apparently came to a stand several km down the line, having see-sawed in a dip!

 

At Venlo, the DB would run in with pan down as the station was NS 1500v DC, and a shunter would move the DB lok to sidings, then onto the train. The departure platform towards Germany was at 16kv AC.

 

Venlo station was 25KV & 1500V dc split down the middle, the freight yard is the same. So all trains enter with pans down in all directions, in the old days of EM2s certain roads I think were dual voltage as I have seen DB electrics coming off the freights and running back onto the AC sections. Today this still happens, go have a look its easy to get to, excellent shots south east of the station at the level crossings. Charlie P

[The Stationmaster]

Venlo station was 25KV & 1500V dc split down the middle, the freight yard is the same. So all trains enter with pans down in all directions, in the old days of EM2s certain roads I think were dual voltage as I have seen DB electrics coming off the freights and running back onto the AC sections. Today this still happens, go have a look its easy to get to, excellent shots south east of the station at the level crossings. Charlie P

 

 

A Dutch website states that voltage switching is provided at Venlo but does not say on how many roads etc.

[45669]

Slightly off topic, but still an 'Odd Border Crossing' was an experience that I had on a train on an Austrian branch line. It was a long time ago, so I cannot remember exactly where this was, but it was the border between Austria and Hungary which, at that time, was behind the Iron Curtain.

 

The train stopped at the border and heavily armed Hungarian soldiers got on. The train was searched and the doors were locked. We then set off with the armed guards on the end balconies of the coaches. After a short while, we stopped at a station which served a small village. However, the village was a little way from the station and over the border back in Austria! At the time the line was built, of course, it was all part of the Austrian - Hungarian empire so there was no border between the station and the village.

 

The soldiers carefully checked the papers of those wishing to leave the train and, once satisfied that they were indeed genuine Austrian villagers, allowed them off and escorted them to a locked gate. This was unlocked and they were allowed through to cross a footbridge over a small stream which had unwittingly become the Iron Curtain. A small group of Austrians waiting for the train were then, having had their papers checked, allowed through the gate and escorted to the train. While all this was going on, some of the soldiers remained on the train standing menacingly in the doorways.

 

The gate was re-locked and the soldiers locked us all in the train again before taking up their positions on the end balconies. The train continued on its way until it reached the point where the line crossed back into Austria again where the train doors were unlocked and the soldiers got off, no doubt to repeat the process on the next train to go the other way.

[Gordonwis]

Slightly off topic, but still an 'Odd Border Crossing' was an experience that I had on a train on an Austrian branch line. It was a long time ago, so I cannot remember exactly where this was, but it was the border between Austria and Hungary which, at that time, was behind the Iron Curtain.

 

 

Hardly off topic IMO as this sort of border crossing is arguably more 'odd' than the subject matter in the previous parts of the discussion.

 

I must admit I don't remember the 'little gate' situation you mention but otherwise, I am certain you are talking about the Wiener Neustadt - Mattersburg - Sopron - Oberpullendorf line. In the 1970s it has already been curtailed from its southern terminus of Oberloisdorf, itself a curtailment of the original line which ran all the way to Rattersdorf and across the border again to the Hungarian town of Koszeg. This can all be seen still on the larger scale maps at ViaMichelin.com. The present service runs only to Mattersburg and Sopron, all other stations AFAIK are served by bus.

 

I visited the area in 1976 to see the Hungarian steam locos (2-6-2 tanks on the Neusidl anm see line and cl.520 Kriegsloks on the 'main' Sopron - Ebenfurth line) of the unique cross-iron-curtain private railway GySEV (ROEE) which crossed into Austria several times daily in order to become freely photographable by enthusiasts!

 

The Sopron area was very borderline Hungarian, and in the communist era I always felt particularly sorry for the residents of the Sopron area as they had voted in the 1920s to be in Hungary not Austria, only to find themselves on the 'wrong side of the wire' for 40 odd years.

 

To see the detail on a current map see this link. The line is in squares U6, V6 and U7, V7

 

'Corridor' trains like this certainly weren't unusual either. I travelled across a corner of the USSR (Ukraine) on a KGB-guarded Polish train in south east Poland in 1991. Because the whole of Poland 'shunted' westwards after 1945 there was a similar corridor train which ran from southeast GDR through south west Poland.

 

 

 

.

[trisonic]

This is the sort of "material" I was looking for at the start as well.

Thanks! Pete.

[Frutigen]

As I remember from journeys over the last couple of years....

 

At Aachen the new border tunnel is single track so the train from Belgium enters from its left hand track and leaves the tunnel on the right hand track. Voltage change takes place at a standstill in Aachen station where two platforms are wired to switch between systems.

 

At Basel, Basel Bad is the German station with running on the right. Basel SBB is the Swiss station with running on the left. The connecting track appears to be single track, which again simplifies things. Not sure about the link between freight lines. Current is the same but Swiss trains going far over the border must be fitted with special pantographs to suit the geometry of German overhead wires.

 

Last year, international trains where German locos hauled Swiss coaches had an extra German coach attached behind the loco - some sort of converter vehicle perhaps?

 

Going out of Basel into France, the TGV from Zurich stopped in the Swiss platforms at Basel SBB. I wasn't able to tell where it changed current as it was a smooth departure. As we passed into France I noticed a big sign telling drivers that SNCF signals are on the right hand side.

 

Within France trains have to swap sides when they come off the high speed LGV Est from Paris towards Strasbourg, as LGVs run on the left and Eastern France runs on the right because it used to be part of Germany (as someone else mentioned). They achieve the switch (and change of pace) using a high speed flyover where the LGV connects with the classic route.

[Jim Martin]

Another curious crossing is the one between Cerbere (France) and Port Bou (Spain). Here, there are the following complications:-

Different track gauge on the two sides.

Different voltages on the OCS.

The legacy of Franco's Draconian regime.

To deal with the first- trains may have their gauge changed whilst still moving (the Talgo); they may have the axles/bogies changed at one of several points within the border complex; or they may have their loads transhipped- something which is relatively easy with containers, but which had to be done box-by-box in the days of the citrus fruit traffic. At one time, several thousand local women would be engaged on the transhipment of the seasonal fruit traffic.

The situation of the different voltages is relatively easily dealt with, in that the Spanish locos run on reduced power on 1500v catenary.

Franco's emphasis on strict border controls leaves a legacy to this day. The southbound local passenger trains are run by SNCF, the northbound ones by RENFE. Both return empty, so that the Gardia Civile could control access and egress, and this situation continued well into the 1990s (and probably still does). The SNCF trains shuttle back and fore on the eastern tunnel, and the RENFE ones on the western one.

All this activity takes place on a relatively narrow ledge hewn out of the rock- the various freight transhipment activities take place in constricted yards in side valleys, which mean that trains like the Stobart one have to be split to fit the sidings.

I haven't had a chance to visit Hendaye on the western coast, or the (currently moribund) site at La Tour-de-Carol, so can't comment on them. The latter had absolutely huge station buildings to accomodate the queues of people filing through frontier controls in the Pyrennean winters.

 

I'm going to Algeres, which is just north of Cerbere, next week. My family have been primed with the idea that they might be without me for a day while I travel down to look at the border. Presumably it's all this faffing about that makes a day trip by train to Barcelona not really practical, despite the moderate distance.

 

That "border stations" link (above) has an interesting page on Cerbere and Port Bou, too.

 

Jim

[jamie92208]

Hendaye Irun is interesting s there are 3 gauges and 3 voltages.

 

1. Standard Gauge SNCF which runs right through from Hendaye in France to the south side of Irun statio in Spain (about 2km) (1500vDC)

 

2. Broad Gauge which comes up through Irun but not into France. The freiht transhipment takes place in the yards on the Spanish side of the border. (300v DC)

 

3. Metre Guage on the Euskotren system which runs alongside the south side of the renfe/sncf lines and actually terminates in Hendays after crossing the river. I'm not sure of the voltage.

 

All this takes place on a fairly flat area between the sea and the motorway. French TGV's runright through to Irun. Somewhere in the middle of the complex is a gauge changer for the Talgo's that run through from Paris to Madirid.

 

Jamie

[Gordonwis]

The Euskotren (once dubbed El Topo and with wizzened wooden poles) is 1500v DC

[Artless Bodger]

On 15/05/2010 at 20:46, NGT6 1315 said:

 

No, Switzerland and Italy both run on the left - I was only referring to the voltage change in this example. Austria and Italy, however, are a different story - well, more or less. While the Brenner Railway, which is the main artery between the two countries, is normally operated on the right-hand side nowadays, the majority of the Austrian mainlines is equipped for full bidirectional running, meaning trains may equally well run on the left or right as any situation might require.

A very interrsting thread, thanks to all for your knowledge. I came across this thread from a search after watching a cab ride video from Wien to Bruck and der Mur, and was surprised to see left hand running almost exclusively (admittedly all lines were bi directionally signalled) as I'd always though Austria was, like Germany, right hand running. This thread has helped to explain why, thanks again.

[adb968008]

Just found this thread too, and thought i’d relay a few experiences…

 

Hungary to Ukraine.. 

 

Train arrives at Csop, on the Ukraine side. The train crosses a bridge, arrives in a separately fence corner of the station, gates closed either end of the train. Soldiers with dogs and shot guns come to each carriage, whilst a sniffer dog team wander through, another team checks the ceiling and side corridor panels, actually checking the screws for sign of movement. They then do passport checks, all those with visas removed for checking in the station.

Meanwhile the loco goes off, and a shunter picks up the first coach, whilst loaded with passengers to a regauging area, where the coach is lifted, the std gauge bogies pulled out and 5’ Russian gauge bogies rolled into place, before being lowered back down, shunter then pushes you back, and pulls up the next coach etc.

 

Whole thing takes about 3 hours…

After that your on your way to Moscow, 2.5 day journey.

 

Singapore to Kuala Lumpur…

 

(No longer possible as Singapore station upto Woodlands is now closed / nature trail).

The night sleeper would board in Singapore, passengers complete Malaysia immigration and board, but you have not yet completed Singapore exit immigration. On departure, c40 minutes upto Woodlands i migration checkpoint. The whole train had to fully deboard, including luggage, pass through Singapore exit immigration, wait until the train has been confirmed empty, inspected, and everyone processed.. then you reboard with all your luggage… That 20 mile journey took 3 hours to complete. Its the only train ride I recall where immigration is reversed, you enter legally a country, before exiting (physically and legally exit) the territory of another…

 

I wondered if Singapore immigration refused your exit, but youve already got a Malaysia entry stamp, how that would work.., as technically at that point your in Limbo as the train itself is considered Malayan territory which youve been admitted, so you can longer exit to Singapore as they are both refusing your leave of Singapore territorial  jurisdiction, but need Malayan leave to exit theirs too, so cannot just “exit the station” back onto Singapores streets, nor return to Singapore station, as theirs no inbound immigration Singapore immigration their either. Whilst Malayan entry immigration is juxtaposed to Singapore station, the Malayan exit is at the Malayan side of the border in Johor Bahru and you cross the border to enter Singapore at the Woodlands side, at the same immigration post as the Singapore exit.. In this case so you cant get to “exit” Malaysia either, as you cant “get across the bridge” to a Malayan exit immigration checkpoint, in order to return to Singapore)… your basically stuck in two countries at the same time…

ive not seen this set up anywhere else, usually juxtaposed immigration follows the order of Exit of country 1, before entry of country 2. .

A strange quirk now lost to history..Today the train now starts / ends at Woodlands, so immigration formalities are in natural order.

 

 

Vienna - Bratislava (pre-Joining the EU)..

 

Single car 4 wheel railbus, packed with cross border Vienna city workers, about 60 of them crammed in this coke can on wheels.. arrives at Marchegg. Everyone piles out on to the track. Ahead of you is a wooden table at the trackside, 4 border guards, and a pile of Slovaks holding passports with several folded A4 pages of heavily stamped entry/exits stapled into their passports.. on the otherside, a 4 coach push pull air con set with a diesel ready to take you onwards to Vienna.

 

However a more memorable border crossing doesnt involve a train at all…

 

Macau direct to Hong Kong Airport International Departure lounge...

 

Once in Macau, I was to take a flight to Japan from Hong Kong airport. My usual route was jet foil to Hong Kong and walk to the MTR and take the airport express, but this one occasion caught my eye was a Jet Foil to Lantau Island.. it didnt elabororate much, but Lantau is home to Hong Kong airport, and a bit of research showed thats where it went… so I took an international boat, went through Macau exit border guards, from Macau ferry terminal direct to Hong Kong airport. The best part was I checked in, got my boarding pass and saw off my luggage at the Quayside in Macau.. at HKG airport, I climbed off the Airport pier, and directly into the flights departure hall of Hong Kong airport.. the only officialdom i saw, I first thought was security actually was an Airport Duty tax refund, as by using the jet foil from Macau, we hadnt entered Hong Kong and so got a refund on the unused immigration procedures !! First time I've taken a boat to an airport… duly flew to Narita and collected my luggage… The luggage tag actually showed as a connecting flight.. Macau Ferry Terminal XZM to HKG to NRT.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by adb968008