Guest WM183 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Hi folks. Being torn as I am between 4mm and 7mm I do have a couple of questions regarding 7mm as a scale. First, is the standard 7mm track (Peco bullhead for example) "in scale" to the rest of the models? I think it is very close, but am not certain. Also, is 7mm likely to remain popular for the foreseeable future? Let's face it; disposable incomes are going down, and it is a pricey scale. Will 4mm or even N/2mm push the others out? And lastly, do 7mm locos run on 12v DC just like their 00/4mm counterparts, usually? I am sure I will think of more (particularly regarding turnouts!) but for now... i guess these are the big ones? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted February 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) Unless you are into building your own track in 60 ft panels with the correct variable sleeper spacing, then Peco 7 mm scale track is fine. there are many excellent layouts that use it. However the bullhead rail is not bullhead, but a flat bottomed rail with a very narrow foot. 7 mm scale is gaining in popularity as manufacturers such as Minerva and Dapol, are bringing the price of locomotives and rolling stock down to sensible levels. Of course 7mm appears more expensive as the models themselves are much bigger than 4 mm scale or N gauge. It also takes up a lot more space than you think, so you tend to require less locos and stock. But, to quote a friend: If you want to be running an A4 Pacific with 12 coaches in a 16' x 10' shed then you are going to be rather disappointed! Most modern 7mm locos run on 12 v DC or the DCC equivilent. My 7 mm locos run from the same NCE Powercab starter set that my 00 locos use. The analogue locos also run off my ancient H&M Clipper. Turnouts? Peco do a small range, but why not build your own............. All Peco track with Rail and chairs from the Peco Individulay range with wooden sleepers cut on my table saw. (Laser cut is available from multiple manufacturers as is the rail and chairs if you want to build your own.) Edited February 13, 2020 by Happy Hippo 3 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitpw Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Your best bet is to read through the information available online from the O Gauge Guild at https://www.gaugeoguild.com/. This offers an explanation of the gauge/scale relationship in 'O Gauge' and much else besides. KitPW Work in progress: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 As a convert to the larger scale I certainly don't regret the change. When I look at the cost element involved compared to the new products being brought out by manufacturers of OO / 4mm gauge stock now I don't think there is too much difference in price. If you consider purchasing say 3 loco's in 4mm ( or even kits ) then it could equate to the cost of one O Gauge locomotive, either RTR or kit ( thats my take on it ). I have gained a great deal of satisfaction building 7mm loco's / stock / track and it has also allowed me to focus more on the amount I have too. Overall more fun too ! G 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 One major advantage from 00 to 0 is the near scale gauge. I struggled for 30 years to combat the angst associated with running on narrow gauge track. 0 finescale defaults to a gauge of 4'6", equivalent to EM in 4mm. I did have a flutter with EM but gave it up as more trouble than it is worth for me. I love being able to detail my wagons. I also love being able to use prototypical couplings. It is Dapol who were the catalyst for me to switch. Their RTR locos and stock are within the range of affordability and are excellent (mostly). I think I couldn't have made the change without Dapol entering the market. Now that I have, I have never been happier with my railway modelling. Check out Trebudoc by Andrew P. The layout is just 9' long including sector plate. Happy modelling. John 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinglingGeordie Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Hornby or Rails terrier around £80 - £100 in OO Dapol terrier in O - £190 - £200 The growth in O ready to run over the last 20 years is huge. As other said £10 OO wagon versus £40 O gauge wagon but you dont need as many of them. Even if you wnat to have large locos, £750 for RAils A3 or A4 in O versus £170ish for the same in OO. Its up to you - (iron) horses for courses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 After 4mm in my early teens, a brief 7mm foray in my late teens, a period of no modelling for a longish while, and then some 15 years of 16mm with dabblings in N, I've modeled in 7mm for the last 20 years or so, so have built up quite a collection. I'm confident that there will be no imminent end to interest in the scale, as Hippo has said, there is lots of reasonably priced RTR, and if anything, interest in the scale is increasing. It's about as small a scale as I would want to use for a garden railway (I know, there are outdoor N gaugers but I think they're quite bonkers ) and it is a scale in which, if you want, you can go to extreme lengths with detail - or not, if it doesn't take your fancy. Equally, you can have a shunting plank on a door-sized baseboard (maybe even smaller) if that's the space you have. I'd also agree with Grahame, having fewer, larger vehicles (buildings, etc) means you invest more time in each. I like that, but others may take a different view. Building track is fun and cheaper than purchasing it ready made - but again, I'd agree that Peco is the way to go in most cases. My P&C are home made, the majority of my other track is "out of the box" perhaps with sleeper spacing adjusted to something more scale. You need to decide whether to go S7 (any purchased rolling stock will need to be adapted, and you'll have to make or commission your track), 0F (so called "standard Finescale" - Peco track and points, just about anybody's wheels) or 0MF (31.5mm gauge, with finer flangeways, gives better appearance & running but allows use of standard finescale wheels) - but you can start with 0F and build yourself an 0MF turnout when the fancy takes you. Trouble is, building track becomes a bit of an interest, and you can disappear down the rabbit-hole that is Templot for weeks at a time! For completeness, there are people still doing coarse scale 0 with electric and clockwork locos & tinplate stock. Buy a wagon kit, Slaters, Parkside or Peco, build it, if you're captivated (I warn you, you will be) then keep it and start in 7mm, if you don't, you'll get your money back flogging it second hand good luck! Simon 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Thanks guys! I have already built two 7mm wagons (Working on the 2nd yet) and hope to get a Jinty as soon as some HO brass I have on the auction site sells. My favourite parts of the hobby is definitely building things and detailing scenes - wagons or structures, or even weeds peeking through ballast - and I know 7mm fits that best. I would love to build my own track, and have in N before (both regular track and PCB turnouts) but again... not quite sure what to buy to get started doing my own O gauge track and turnouts, err, points. I love the presence of 7mm wagons; they just invite closer examination, and even picking up to examine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I have built a lot of my own turnouts for my layout, mostly to Peco geometry. Peco rail and chairs are widely available (eg Antics). They do plastic timbers but I had trouble with mine "cupping". I bought a pack of laser cut ply timbers from Intentio which I do like. The pack I got has a surprisingly large quantity so I'll never run out. Use MEK to fix chairs to your timbers. To start I recommend downloading the turnout templates on Peco's site. If you want to get fancy, Templot is free to download. I did have a lot of false starts and there are subtleties to get to grips with (like set on the stock rail next to the blade) but with practice I'm making reasonable turnouts. A very good book on track building: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/1874103003.php My other go to book is Trax 2. It is very practical and comes with a CD containing track planning software. https://rail-books.co.uk/collections/publishers/products/track-construction-trax-2-9780954203597 John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Hi, As John has alluded to, my Trebudoc and also St Budoc were only 9ft long. My Current Blue period Layout, Seven Mills Sidings on here is only 12ft Scenic, 17ft in total and is most enjoyable. For inspiration in Scratch and Kit building, you could do far worse than checking out George T's Workbench for some amazing stuff. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 25 minutes ago, brossard said: I have built a lot of my own turnouts for my layout, mostly to Peco geometry. Peco rail and chairs are widely available (eg Antics). They do plastic timbers but I had trouble with mine "cupping". I bought a pack of laser cut ply timbers from Intentio which I do like. The pack I got has a surprisingly large quantity so I'll never run out. Use MEK to fix chairs to your timbers. To start I recommend downloading the turnout templates on Peco's site. If you want to get fancy, Templot is free to download. I did have a lot of false starts and there are subtleties to get to grips with (like set on the stock rail next to the blade) but with practice I'm making reasonable turnouts. A very good book on track building: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/1874103003.php My other go to book is Trax 2. It is very practical and comes with a CD containing track planning software. https://rail-books.co.uk/collections/publishers/products/track-construction-trax-2-9780954203597 John Is the Ian Rice book much help for 7mm track? I do like his writing very much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Track building principles are not really scale specific IMO. The book does contain a lot on the prototype -- useful to know something about what you are modelling. Besides, as you say, his writing is very entertaining. I have most of his books. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
commsbloke Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I think that the Iain Rice book needs a reprint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I think a lot of the old Wild Swan books could do with a reprint. They are incredibly valuable and I don't know of any books that replace them. Admittedly, some of the things in the books are a tad dated, since many were published in the 90s, but they are worth having in your library. You can still find these around the weeb. I recently found Gordon Gravett's 7mm Modelling Part 1 on Amazon for a decent price. The two I linked above seem to be available. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I do like the Wild Swan books. I have the full "4mm wagon" series as well as the 4mm coal wagon book and a couple of Ian Rice's finescale in small spaces and layout planning books. They are quite charming things! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
commsbloke Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 5 hours ago, brossard said: The two I linked above seem to be available. Doh! facepalm. You put in links, I need to pay more attention. Thanks John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 6 hours ago, commsbloke said: I think that the Iain Rice book needs a reprint. Interesting. I expect to see Iain this weekend, storms / gales / rain permitting so I may well pose the concept to him. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Interesting. He is my modelling hero. I know one of his books on Buildings was reprinted. So many new modellers coming along who need books. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Peco O gauge track is sturdy and works well. It looks great once ballasted, and given the surface rust treatment. If memory serves me, I used a Tamiya brown (Mission Brown?) for rust colour. You may also want to use some sort of grey paint for the sleepers. It isn't true bullhead rail, but unless you are very particular about your track and reproducing a certain company's perway practices, or want a very specific odd geometry (asymmetrical 3-way point for example) I wouldn't worry too much about it. 7mm Finescale standard is perfectly servicable, and for the most part you won't need to fit springing or compensation on your wagons. Anything with a wheelbase more than a scale 10ft would benefit from simple 3-point compensation. Locomotive choices are limited compared to 4mm scale, but you don't need a huge fleet. A lot of O gauge modellers have a handful of locomotives, a few coaches and perhaps 20-30 wagons which they slowly collect over time - mostly kit-built. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606odin Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Well having struggled for years with the optical deficiencies of peco OO, having gone up to O just over 12 months ago, I couldn’t be happier with how it looks, with a little tweak on the points, they look great...and only a Pway expert would know it’s not proper bullhead rail anyway 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 14, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2020 C&L also do flexitrack which I think has more accurate sleeper spacing but I havent ever compared to see if it is obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 That track is gorgeous, as is that diesel. Wow. I will have to research LMS track and determine what bits I need to try my hand at it. I've been wanting to try a turnout for some time, no time like the present! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) One of these kits, plus rail and gauges (and of course files and solder, glue, etc) is what I need to make a point, correct? Which type of chairs would be right for LMS / BR in Yorkshire someplace? https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/7-PK-POINT-KITS-CHAIRS-AND-SLEEPERS-ONLY-7MM-p128257064 And then these gauges? https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/ROLLER-GAUGES-FINE-7-32-MM-PACK-OF-4-p128257147 Edited February 14, 2020 by WM183 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 You may wish to consider these gauges ? https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/1173/7a3150-track-gauge-for-31-5mm/ Very useful and easy to use. Usual disclaimers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) I thought 7mm Fine was 32mm? Edited February 14, 2020 by WM183 Clarity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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